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  1. #1651
    Member March's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Yes, I could see that happening. If you imagine yourself as broadcasting emotional information 24/7 it's probably fair to say she didn't grill you 24/7 on what she was picking up. And when she probed for more information, it may have then been colored with some inner annoyance from you at being grilled for it so then it does start to be about her collaterally. That's hard to ignore. She then might have identified a pattern of her own and felt that forcing the issue would "break the wall." Just a thought.
    Oh yeah, probably. I must've been a tough kid for her to have. From my very first breath, she wanted more emotional intimacy/entanglement than I could give because I never felt safe/free from judgement around her. She always said she'd wanted a daughter with perfect blonde curls all her life, for her to love and to give all the things she'd never gotten from HER parents. and then she got ME, externally perfect but internally standoffish and skittish and with a completely different set of needs.

    The situation became a little more complicated than your normal parent/kid struggles, though. My parents divorced when I was 7 and afterwards I was my mother's entire support network - she had no friends, no family she could rely on, and it took her years and years to find a job where people could appreciate her tremendous strengths and talents instead of feeling judged and steamrollered by her which finally allowed her to make friends with colleagues.

    So she put me in a position where I had to be her strength. And she is my mother and I love her and of COURSE I wanted to support her in whichever way sne needed, but a pre-teen and young teen isn't cut out to have her mother cry on her shoulder because of depression/being unappreciated at her job/not being able to pay rent or decent food. I did the best I could, but I didn't have any support network of my own either. If she'd just let me feel miserable by myself and stayed out of my head, I could've been strong for her. If she'd just been happy and taken care of and supported, I could've been open to her. But she leaned on me beyond any point of skill I had and then she poked at me because I refused to share my emotions and THEN she kept telling me those emotions were wrong and a kid should be happy, dammit! *sad*

    I think your response to INTJ daughter was lovely and just right and I would've given my right hand for an interaction like this. Even with the poking fun on FB afterwards. :p

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    And I read with interest how you feel about a misread of the inner state. (...) We just feel that you don't feel "right" inside and extrapolate from that feeling to try to determine possible cause. I've noticed that the correct labeling is very important to INFJs and to me too actually, so a better perspective is just to assume nothing and start from ground zero. What question do you think would help you feel open to saying how you feel in the moment, bearing in mind that you're not necessarily paying attention to what you might be broadcasting?
    I'm not sure if I was naturally allergic to a misread of inner state, or if it's grown. I'm definitely a nitpicker so if you were to come out and say "You look like you want to wring someone's neck!" I'd correct you with "I'm not angry with anyone, just frustrated with this no-good piece of shit software package." But I don't think I'd feel annoyed because you were off center in your interpretation.

    With my mother, I'm definitely allergic to misreads. Mostly because she wouldn't accept any correction. Sure, she gets bellyaches when she's nervous, so if I complain about a bellyache that's a great starting point in the guessing game. But when I say "No, not nervous, just cramps" I need people to accept that. Instead, she'd insist that I was TOO nervous and when you're nervous you need to walk it off while talking about it. (Whereas I just wanted to go to bed and sleep.) And the other way around, when I felt nauseous (a sign of nerves in me, a sign of illness in her), she'd put me to bed and not allow me to walk it off/talk about it. So it's not so much the mislabeling that gets me as the resulting 'so you have to do THIS' that interferes with self-care and leaves me both miserable for longer AND feeling misunderstood.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    You mentioned before that taking care of the external sometimes takes care of the internal by proxy, so if you're kind of intercepted somewhere in the middle of that, what would suit you best?
    As a kid I don't think I was taking care of anything, just hanging in there by the skin of my teeth and being miserable and hoping things would end one way or the other.

    As a grown-up, what works for me is "Hey honey, I get the feeling you're not feeling too good. Anything I can do to help? Wanna talk about it? Want me to cook dinner?" (Any offer of cooking dinner always works like a charm - it helps me take care of things by proxy by feeding my body real food, it helps me be less stressed because there's one bit of responsibility I can let go of, and it gives me 20 minutes I can spend on delving deeper into whatever's bugging me because I don't have to entertain you because you're entertaining yourself by making dinner. My husband tends to say "Looks like you're not feeling too good - how about we skip dinner so you don't have to worry about that!" and that doesn't help at all. Poor soul.)

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    More later - I wanted to share a thought on your ISTJ spouse story you might find interesting. My parents are ISFJ and ISTJ so the dynamic is familiar.
    Please do!

  2. #1652
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by March View Post
    So she put me in a position where I had to be her strength. And she is my mother and I love her and of COURSE I wanted to support her in whichever way sne needed, but a pre-teen and young teen isn't cut out to have her mother cry on her shoulder because of depression/being unappreciated at her job/not being able to pay rent or decent food. I did the best I could, but I didn't have any support network of my own either. If she'd just let me feel miserable by myself and stayed out of my head, I could've been strong for her. If she'd just been happy and taken care of and supported, I could've been open to her. But she leaned on me beyond any point of skill I had and then she poked at me because I refused to share my emotions and THEN she kept telling me those emotions were wrong and a kid should be happy, dammit! *sad*
    I'm sorry your Mom didn't realize she was asking you to be more of an adult and less of a child, placing so much emotional weight on your shoulders so young. And I know you're not telling me that story specifically to elicit this response, but I want to acknowledge that, not bypass it. It sounds like what was asked of you was more than a child is ideally intended to bear. And it wasn't right for her to invalidate your legitimate emotions. I can see you know she didn't mean to, but still, it happened.

    How is your relationship with her now?

    Quote Originally Posted by March View Post
    I think your response to INTJ daughter was lovely and just right and I would've given my right hand for an interaction like this. Even with the poking fun on FB afterwards. :p
    Ya, she probably wishes I hadn't posted the picture, especially after the ribbing she got from some of her FB friends (the hat is now known as "the hat of happiness" lol). But that's an example of me using my skills I think close to my best? There have been other times I've asked too early and other times where I've pressed harder too. One must learn, eh? What I do is just generally preface everything now with, "I feel like something's up with you. If you don't want to talk about it, that's ok, I just want you to know I love you and I am open to hear what's going on if you want to share." Then give a hug and WALK AWAY. That part is SO HARD sometimes! And if you don't want to talk, or tell me something that isn't what I think is complete or correct, I still have to accept that and go with your lead.

    Here with fid and ZBuck, they might read that and say, "Hey, PB hasn't walked away from me! She still pesters me!" But in reality I have disengaged, for months at a time. Usually someone will quote me or indirectly mention me so I'll think they're ready to talk more. That's my interpretation anyway. But I can't go much longer than that listening to the baby!

    Quote Originally Posted by March View Post
    With my mother, I'm definitely allergic to misreads. Mostly because she wouldn't accept any correction. Sure, she gets bellyaches when she's nervous, so if I complain about a bellyache that's a great starting point in the guessing game. But when I say "No, not nervous, just cramps" I need people to accept that. Instead, she'd insist that I was TOO nervous and when you're nervous you need to walk it off while talking about it. (Whereas I just wanted to go to bed and sleep.) And the other way around, when I felt nauseous (a sign of nerves in me, a sign of illness in her), she'd put me to bed and not allow me to walk it off/talk about it. So it's not so much the mislabeling that gets me as the resulting 'so you have to do THIS' that interferes with self-care and leaves me both miserable for longer AND feeling misunderstood.
    *nods* You've really identified a common place where INFPs can boob up. We use ourself as the frame of reference and extrapolate outwards. What is ideal is if we then use our Ne to assemble Si models for all manner of people and emotional / physical expression, open ourselves to reams of external perception. That way, we don't just use ourselves as a limited template to try to open a window to you. Totally hear what you are saying here.

    As a grown-up, what works for me is "Hey honey, I get the feeling you're not feeling too good. Anything I can do to help? Wanna talk about it? Want me to cook dinner?" (Any offer of cooking dinner always works like a charm - it helps me take care of things by proxy by feeding my body real food, it helps me be less stressed because there's one bit of responsibility I can let go of, and it gives me 20 minutes I can spend on delving deeper into whatever's bugging me because I don't have to entertain you because you're entertaining yourself by making dinner. My husband tends to say "Looks like you're not feeling too good - how about we skip dinner so you don't have to worry about that!" and that doesn't help at all. Poor soul.)
    What would you like me to cook for dinner tonight?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  3. #1653
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Thank you for your responses, SK.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I think you misunderstand what I'm getting at. Fe still has a short-hand for dealing with people - a way of quickly assessing human behaviour in broad strokes and making sense of it. Fi does not. It has to go case by case; minute detail by minute detail. We can often do the details fast but we can't easily pick up the broad strokes. The only way a short hand is developed is through Te, which itself takes a long time to develop, and for IxFPs it's our inferior function - it's not natural for us to wield it.

    Have you ever seen this descriptions of the Judging functions?

    Te - Objectively Objective
    Ti - Subjectively Objective
    Fe - Objectively Subjective
    Fi - Subjectively Subjective

    Granted, I'm e5 least so variant- which is the Mac Daddy of introverts (and I agree with uumlau, etype/variant makes a significant difference)- but there's something about the systematic emphasis on Fe when discussing INFJs that seems off to me. It's convoluting discussion, over and over again. I'm not going to bother going into it, because I don't have the diplomacy fidelia has (or 21%, or March seems to have as well) and I don't know how to add the fluff and decorum that Fi (sometimes) seems to require. I'll just say I think it's preventing the discussion from actually being very productive.

    Regarding the above quote- it actually seems to me like if there's any type that can always walk into a new environment full of new people and instantly interact as if they already know everyone.....it's a Ne/Se dom. (I mean- just to show how 'the grass is greener'- it seems to me like Pe dom/aux have the advantage in this regard.)
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  4. #1654
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    there's something about the systematic emphasis on Fe when discussing INFJs that seems off to me. It's convoluting discussion, over and over again. I'm not going to bother going into it, because I don't have the diplomacy fidelia has (or 21%, or March seems to have as well) and I don't know how to add the fluff and decorum that Fi (sometimes) seems to require. I'll just say I think it's preventing the discussion from actually being very productive.
    Again, yes yes yes.

    So far, as far as I can tell, it just doesn't matter how many times we say it.

    It's certainly possible that diplomacy in expression would make a difference (years ago, I used to be more willing to do that kind of thing in discussions but am far blunter at this point in my life) - but it's also possible that this systematic focus on Fe when discussing INFJS is a core part of the dysfunction in this thread or on this site, and that dysfunction has dug in very very deeply.

    --------------------------

    And @Z Buck McFate: I owe you an apology. When I first came on the site, you (half-jokingly, I think) mentioned in my intro thread this weird INFP/INFJ contention online that you don't see with your real life INFP and INFJ friends. I kind of brushed it off, saying that there's real tension between me and my INFP partner related to differences in our cognitive processes. While that is true - I have to say, Z Buck, I had no idea at that time what you were talking about, you are 100% correct and I think I get it better now.

    I have been in a deep and often challenging relationship with my INFP partner for 4 years. We began as friends in an written extensive dialogue, then got involved. We have lived together for some time, have worked together professionally in different ways, have had huge HUGE life stresses during the time we've been a couple, and have had all sorts of interpersonal struggles in the process.

    Partway through our relationship, we came across the information about cognitive functions related to our different MBTI types and have been using it as one tool to assist us in our communication and how we move together. This information has been extremely helpful to us in many different ways. It has made our communication and relationship better to have this language and conceptual model.

    And I can say this - for all of our struggles and tensions, we have simply not had this persistent clusterf*ck of entrenched dysfunction that's the persistent and apparently unshakable norm in this thread (and that from what I can tell, may historically be part of at least some INFP/INFJ interactions on this site?)

    From my end, for example: My INFP partner has never had a problem allowing me space and boundaries when I have asked for that in a clear and centered manner. In fact, she seems naturally inclined to respect that in me due to her persistently enacted respect for me as an individual. She is truly solid in her support for my centered-ness and wellness - as long as I am clear on that in myself (this is key). In our discussions of cognitive functions, she has never assumed or spoken as if my Fe-aux is more relevant than my Ni perception, has shown zero inclination to define for me from her vantage point what Fe-aux in me is or should be, and has certainly never called on me to use Fe-aux more or differently with her or others. I could go on in this vein, but I won't.

    IMO there have been some very useful descriptions and tools offered in this thread. The whole "middle process"/three layers discussion was wonderful IMO. And I truly appreciate many of the rich descriptions from some of the INFJs here (that seem to get lost in the shuffle). But those things aren't at the center of the discussion streams here. There seems to be a persistent pull back toward areas of dysfunction and confusion.

    And in this dysfunctional context, the MBTI/cognitive processes concepts seem to function to obscure clarity and good communication - the opposite of what these concepts have done in my INFP/INFJ real life relationship.

    In my real life relationship, our use of this conceptual model has served to support health in our INFP-INFJ relationship. In contrast - here, use of these concepts most often functions as a sort of suck into a rabbit hole of dysfunctional communication and interaction patterns. And the presence of the dysfunctional communication and interaction patterns then feeds the persistent illusion than somehow things are just sooooooo hard between INFPs and INFJs that we of course need to keep engaging in ways that lead back to the rabbit hole which leads back to the the ongoing persistent dysfunction that characterizes the thread over and over. It's a feedback loop based on self-generating illusion, over and over.

    So Z Buck, I apologize. I shouldn't have brushed off your passing comment as I did. I truly didn't have any experiential reference point for what you may have been talking about when you mentioned the weird online dynamics that you don't see with INFPs and INFJs irl. For all that my INFP and I have struggled, we simply have not had this kind of bizarre dysfunctional clusterf*ck related to differences in our cognitive processes. I didn't even know that such entrenched dysfunction was a possibility.

    On the up side, this thread has gotten me to explicitly appreciate some things I have simply taken for granted in my relationship with my INFP partner - took them for granted because they seemed so basic as to be unremarkable. I was wrong about that too.

  5. #1655
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    At a certain point, the act of "emulating" functions you are not accustomed to can seem like an attempt to infringe on the boundaries of those who prefer those functions; I personally wouldn't feel all that comfortable thinking that some stranger on the internet is attempting to crawl around in my headspace. It would feel potentially meddlesome, even if it was done with the purest of intentions.
    Jeez man, I'm doing my best here. If one approach doesn't work I have to try another. I meant not offence to anyone in doing that; I was just trying to use comparisons from an angle that might make more sense to others. I recognise that I'm going to make mistakes in defining other people's functions but I don't purport to be an expert on them and I'm more than OK with any corrections.

    If people have a problem with my communication style then let me know and I'll back off. I'm just running out of different angles to approach the same thing.

    And I don't appreciate this sort of passive-aggression BTW
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    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

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  6. #1656
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Jeez man, I'm doing my best here. If one approach doesn't work I have to try another. I meant not offence to anyone in doing that; I was just trying to use comparisons from an angle that might make more sense to others. I recognise that I'm going to make mistakes in defining other people's functions but I don't purport to be an expert on them and I'm more than OK with any corrections.

    If people have a problem with my communication style then let me know and I'll back off. I'm just running out of different angles to approach the same thing.

    And I don't appreciate this sort of passive-aggression BTW
    I wasn't addressing anyone in particular. Just thoughts. I apologize for any confusion.

  7. #1657
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    The thing about diplomacy was because I'm really not interested in hurting any feelings or causing grief. And this Fe thing- I've been whining about it in my blog sporadically for a while now. It isn’t about needing others to have a certain image of “INFJ”- there are qualities that I personally have which remain my qualities regardless of whether or not other INFJs (or FJs, or any group I happen to be in) have them. I don’t need other INFJs to come across a certain way in order to know what my own values are and to know that I live by them. For example- inasmuch as enneagram types “exist”, I am “definitely” enneagram 5: I’ve read a lot of things about enneagram 5 that don’t apply to me at all and with which I take no issue because I believe they probably do apply to many 5s. But a lot of the ways in which the Fe caricature is being applied to INFJs in this forum is just weird to me.

    I’ve considered the idea that maybe I just tend to gravitate towards NFJs with an especially strong e4 bent- thinking it’s possible this stuff doesn't jive with my experience only because my own NFJ acquaintance isn't an evenly distributed sample. But then, the very fact that there are more INFJ enneagram type 4s than ISFP or ENFP suggests to me that INFJs are actually wired in such a way that we’re sensitive about having the individuality/authenticity/idealism/special snowflake drilled out of us. There are more INFP e4s than INFJs- but still, more INFJs than ENFPs. So, on the Specialsnowflakometer: FiNe>NiFe>FiSe>NeFi. While 'results' on these stats vary, having INFP > INFJ as the top two is pretty consistent. <- It's stuff like that which makes me think it's not just me/my experience- but .

    I have tried figuring out why this bothers me. The only thing I can come up with is that it impairs the quality/authenticity of discussion. It feels like people are preoccupied with establishing/maintaining the difference, rather than bridging it. All I know is that it doesn't actually productively help bridge the gap when the convo veers in that direction. [I'm personally working on just exiting without incident as soon as I see it going on- instead of getting annoyed.]

    Also, I think the same thing does happen (somewhat) between INTPs/INTJs here- and I don't know, I think maybe because they aren't people-oriented the INTJs just don't give a frak (their Ni doesn't do the whole 'crying baby' shtick at unbalanced interpersonal dynamics going on around them).


    eta: I just noticed there's a thread with a parody of the facebook 'lookback' video- which made me wish it was available to make one for this thread. Or for the INFP/INFJ "discussions" in general. That would be hilarious.
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  8. #1658
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    ...And this Fe thing- I've been whining about it in my blog sporadically for a while now...But a lot of the ways in which the Fe caricature is being applied to INFJs in this forum is just weird to me.
    Hi Z Buck...so you are sensitive about ignorance on how Fe works for INFJs? To be honest I wasn't aware of the difference myself until @Eilonwy pointed out her own perception of Fe in post #1571 and I responded to her to clarify that it doesn't work that way for me...So for you Eilonwy...I hope you are doing OK and well...

    Is there a way to make a sticky about certain problematic assumptions/knowledge about INFJs to inform people and help prevent further propagation...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I guess, I am more sensitive to (knowingly or unknowingly) dissemination/propagation of information that I deem to be incorrect as well as building a discussion on incorrect premises/assumptions... (my own included)

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    +1 with the bolded part...but not all do that with ulterior motives in mind...They may simply be unaware...

  9. #1659
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Hi Z Buck...so you are sensitive about ignorance on how Fe works for INFJs? To be honest I wasn't aware of the difference myself until Eilonwy pointed out her own perception of Fe in post #1571 and I responded to her to clarify that it doesn't work that way for me...So for you Eilonwy...I hope you are doing OK and well...

    Is there a way to make a sticky about certain problematic assumptions/knowledge about INFJs to inform people and help prevent further propagation...?

    I guess, I am more sensitive to (knowingly or unknowingly) dissemination/propagation of information that I deem to be incorrect as well as building a discussion on incorrect premises/assumptions... (my own included)
    The way I see it- if there's something wrong with the information, it's the responsibility of people reading to figure it out. There's way too much information on the internet that I don't agree with to get worked up about it. I think it can be especially difficult for IxxJs to articulate why certain information is frustrating, but ultimately, I don't know, all we really need to know is whether we believe something ourselves? eta: The good thing about inaccurate information is that it will still be inaccurate later on when we've finally figured out how to clearly articulate the problem with it.

    I don't know how much I agree with what she wrote because I don't understand it. I do know that the phrase "Fi is about the individual" is problematic to me, it could mean too many things. I have fought the urge before (even before you joined the forum) to make some comment about how it seems (to me) Fi is more about 'the self' than 'the individual'- for the same reason that I do see a grain of truth in the whole 'team' thing- but I didn't have an especially diplomatic way to say it. While I'm probably one of the more rough-around-the-edges (read: curmudgeonly) INFJs around here, I still try to be relatively careful about starting conflict simply because I see something that doesn't sit right with me.


    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    +1 with the bolded part...but not all do that with ulterior motives in mind...They may simply be unaware...
    I don’t think there’s a single person on this earth who is so mindful of everything they do that they can claim to be entirely conscious of their motives. (I think far more often than not, good people do harmful things because they are unaware- there’s only a few who knowingly cause harm. It's almost pompous, in my mind, to get offended at the prospect of being in the former category because we’ve ALL been there. We're all works in progress. That's how I see it.)

    [mildly edited]
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  10. #1660
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    My enneagram 6 is perhaps related with why I tend to associate the dominant function mainly with identifying friend or foe...
    Perhaps. I'm not sure if INFPs 6s would feel differently to me as well.

    ^What does the other party achieve by instilling a different emotion in you? How does it affect you? Does it mislead you, how?
    I suppose it's more that it inhibits my ability to analyse my own natural reaction/feeling/instinct. I need to hear my own inner voice and I can't if I'm hearing someone else's voice inside my head too. If someone convinces me to turn away from the inner voice, I can feel a lot of resentment in that.

    Again, I do want to say I'm not opposed in principle to attempts to change my mood. In tense or important situations, though, I need more emotional space to process.

    You are adjusting your outer persona to suit to the other's needs while remaining faithful to your rigid inner core...?
    Sort of... in general...but I'm not sure that this is the correct interpretation of what I was saying. Yes, there are parts of me that a naturally 'rigid' and some parts that are more fluid, but that 'rigid' part is not easily threatened. I don't need to consciously remain faithful to it, to worry about it changing significantly while my back is turned.

    What I'm trying to get at is that I either just communicate my literal 'personal truth' (my thoughts/feelings, without context, my own language, unfiltered, without a thought of how it will be received), or I try to find some synchronicity with the other person. The 'personal truth' is pretty useless method of communication; it's too esoteric, too abstract, too impressionistic for most people to understand. Beside the fact that it's highly personal and usually I don't like putting that out there when I'm not sure if it's going to be criticised, laughed at, or dismissed. So, seeing as my natural communication method is basically off limits, I have to find a bridge between myself and others if I ever want to have any sort of interaction/relationship with other people. If I can figure out what frame of mind the other person is in, I can build a bridge from where I am to where they are. I'm just hoping that this will be enough for us to get along. So I'm not necessarily worried about satisfying the other person's needs - I just need us to be on the same page.

    ^Why someone would need a desire to distort his/her emotional output (I mean in the way you mentioned perceiving it)?
    - Sometimes they're just flailing around, without any conscious action.
    - Sometimes, I think people unconsciously focus on managing what they can and this might be the emotional state or the POV of the other person; they might not have the insight or the tools to deal with their own emotional state.
    - Sometimes they might do it to dodge culpability or the confrontation of their personal issues.
    - Sometimes they might just be trying to smooth over the interpersonal tension and try to fix the situation in another way.
    - I think it is rare when it's genuinely done as an act of outright manipulation

    I asked for an example so as to compare it my own attitudes and draw a conclusion for the reason for distortion...
    Here's an example:

    My ISFP friend was in relationship with a ENFJ*. The 3 of us (along with 8 others) were all part of the same Uni program (film-making). We spent a lot of time around each other working on the same projects or similar projects. It was a really demanding course and it took it's toll on everyone. My ISFP friend gave so much practical and emotional support to the ENFJ despite being under a significant amount of stress herself. Over time she began to suspect he was cheating on her with another girl (who was an actor in one of his projects). She eventually accused him outright of cheating (I imagine this was done with a lot of screaming and yelling too). He then looked at her with concern and asked her, "what's going on? Are you OK? You seem really stressed out lately" - he basically turned the whole thing around as being a result of her own stress. My friend crumbled at that point. She figured that she must be acting all crazy and paranoid, admitting she was really tired and under a lot of pressure. He then spent some time comforting her and listening to what has been on her mind. About a week later she caught him in bed with the actress.

    *Sorry, I don't mean to pass off their flaws on INFJs. I've just known far more of them and the distortion is easier to spot and explain. Take this as an approximation, not a literal 1-1 correlation. I also realise this is an extreme example, and is not necessarily indicative of all forms of it.

    Did she do anything specifically to offend/harm/hurt/abuse your ESFP friend...? ESFP's want to be popular as well, could it be she was somehow intimidated by her (ExFJ's) skills to win people over? A turf war?
    No, no nothing like that. It was just an extreme reaction to perceived inauthenticity.

    Regarding what to do...remain polite but distant...don't let her increase the level of intimacy?
    Yeah, I usually just do something like that. I just struggle when I don't have a clear idea of a person - I want to know.

    So you are giving the baby what he/she desires/craves...what if he/she becomes reliant on you even though you are not the mother, expecting to take care of him/her whenever he/she cries...? What if the baby latches onto your legs and doesn't want to let go?

    How do you do that stepping back thing? Abruptly? Drifting off? Confrontation?
    I don't usually get too involved, so people don't usually latch on. Strangers seem more likely to latch on to me TBH . There's lots of lonely people out there that have dealt with a lot of disrespect and dismissal so the slightest kindness can be all it takes.

    When I step back from people in general, I just stop doing more than the bare basics of politeness, while trying to inch towards the exit.
    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Fe-aux is not necessarily pure tradionalist...progressive tradionalist perhaps...
    Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that it was. I couldn't find the right words for it and needed your clarification.

    And there needs to be a healthy balance between self-centeredness and selflessness...I am trying to force my preset to shift more towards self-centeredness (like Werebudgie trying to center herself more in her Ni-Se landscape...)
    Absolutely.

    There's always the possibility that anyone's presets may be way off...so what your heart tells you (or anyone) may be way off as well...therefore, trying to adjust it to healthier levels is neither selfishness nor a betrayal to authentic self IMO...not that I call you selfish...
    I suppose, but my own theory of this is that people who end up with their presents being off, started down that path by their own volition. That's just an opinion though...



    I didn't mean to say it gives you all these magical powers, although it can sometimes seem like it from the point of view of Fi. What I want to get across is that it gives you an understanding of interpersonal dynamics and plan of attack. It might not be perfect but it's but it's better than what Fi-doms can manage. I might know what I want to do, but usually have no idea how to go about achieving it. Your ideas seem to have more momentum behind them. Say what you like Js are always going to be better at action than Ps. Whether this achieves the desired results is another thing.

    Fi-dom should also be able to notice when people are displeased/distressed...and respond similarly...I can't feel that Fe-aux gives me that much advantage...perhaps Ni? And even when Ni, I am particularly baffled as to what to do and how to comfort people in some situations, especially when it requires soothing and compassion...that's more like Fi's domain I believe...
    There are pros and cons to both.

    Not familiar with it...but would like to learn more...
    I'm not sure what else to say. I'm open to questions if you want.


    The thing about "affecting people" bothered me somehow...I just want to remind once more that Fe is not our dominant function...What did you specifically mean about affecting people? Perhaps I can pinpoint why it bothers me that way....
    The word is the approximation to this image I have in my head of the different methods of interaction. This is just my view of it (ie. I don't mean to say this is the objective view of things). So imagine an interaction between the Fi/Fe user (person A) and another person (B):

    Fe: A <----> B

    Fi: A ....?.... B

    For me Fe is so much about the arrows between the people. It's so much about movement. It's like I can feel the breeze formed behind the stuff being shifted. There's also so much more connectivity between the two people - the arrows are like the glue of relationships. "Affect" in this sense means to be emotionally impacted by the other person and for them to be emotionally impacted by you in return. Even if B doesn't attempt to impact A in return, A seems to maintain the reverse arrow (pointing to them) by somehow making part of themselves into a vacuum which sucks an impact out of person B. I mean all this in no negative sense BTW.

    Fi doesn't have the arrows; the interaction is less tangible and external. Have you seen Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory? You know that scene where they send a chocolate bar to the TV set via Wonkavision. I think of Fi being like that: all those millions of tiny pieces flying through the air, mysteriously being somehow put together at the other end. It's like externally there is no connection between the two points but somehow the message is transmitted and received. But problems can sometimes arise when the chocolate bar doesn't get put together in the way it was before it was transmitted (or if it was the wrong flavour).

    (Sorry if this doesn't make any sense. This description is what I mean about pure communication of Fi being weird and abstract)

    Perhaps a standard code of conduct that Ne employs in such situations by default would come handy...?
    I guess. Once I get to know people I can get better at reading them and can do so more quickly. However, I still find myself asking "why?" a whole lot with people I know well. My ISTP dad in particular.

    I imagine you have the same concerns and approach with figuring out people's intentions.

    I agree with you...I think Fe-(aux?) makes me much more practically oriented when it comes to trying to help people whereas Fi's domain I believe is more about showing compassion and understanding...
    Yes, very much so.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

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