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  1. #1631
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    ]or if it starts confusing my own sense of reality and perceptions
    In conversations with my INFP, this has come up a lot and can be really hard for her to understand. External material simply doesn't confuse her sense of reality and perceptions like it can for me.

  2. #1632
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Why (I mean for what purpose) do you rely on reading those inner emotions? What purpose does it serve?
    You tell me to what purpose!

    I would say in my life Fi has served primarily as an emotional "truth" detector. Oh, not necessarily the universal truth or anything like that ... maybe, on occasional glimpses of serenity ... but probably closer to a truth for me. Aside from childhood injuries, a few stitches and eye surgery, almost all of my earliest memories surround the differences between what someone was feeling on the inside vs what they were saying and doing on the outside. I grew up on a working farm in an old farmhouse where the kerosene stove had used to sit in the middle of the house, and there was still a covered hole where the stovepipe came through the floor in the middle of the sleeping area upstairs. When my parents had company over, and I was supposed to be asleep, I used to sit in the dark by the decorative iron grating covering the hole and listen to all the stories. My parents were different people depending on who was visiting. It was fascinating to me.

    You asked once for my Si stories ... these are my stories. They all engage emotions so telling you my stories involves opening my emotions to you. Since it's probable you won't assign the same emotional weight to my Si data, your Ni examination of it will likely yield little fruit in this venue.

    All I know is that I can read inner emotional data and it's as real and obvious to me as having a radio playing in the background of my life. Non-stop. Sometimes the volume is a little higher or a little lower, but it's there. I can't always make out the tune or the words, but when I tune in, it can be quite interesting. Even though we are undoubtedly miles apart, I sense the data from you too, through your words. The difference between the words here and "real-life" is that this is more static, less dynamic.

    Identifying friend or foe? (I've already made a few similar assumptions on that way way back...Furthermore, I think Ni-dom may also be working with the aim of making sense of people, to identify whether they are friend or foe)
    See, how timely for you to post this. I think that's totally right. To address you directly, your Fe is right now seeking to put Ni to service though, as opposed to the other way around. You have an Fe judgement or goal and you are trying to make Ni make the pieces fit together. The issue is that your Fe is really not meant to only be used this way, imo. And you're supposed to be using it on yourself too. All the stuff you are examining about other people, you are supposed to be examining all those judgements as reflections of yourself. werebudgie has the right idea, to let Ni free to pick up perceptual data, but it's not meant to exist and function in isolation. Imagine telling an INTJ not to engage Te. Doesn't make sense.

    I'll save you the trouble of trying to pick apart your Ni sense and tell you what I think your sense data picks up about me. I can be opinionated, persistent, and holier-than-thou. I can sense the group dynamic but I do not subscribe to those values, especially here on the forum, since I value being more true to my typological voice in this place. Fe values can seem exceedingly context-dependent to me and I find interfacing with those sets of variable rules troubling at times. If I think I can offer advice, I'll do it from time to time even when it's not been asked for. Sometimes it might piss people off because I seem like a know-it-all. And sometimes, I am. I can even be a smart-ass. eta: that's the inside. The outside me strives to be kind, caring and generous, living true to my values and being a decent human being.

    Futhermore, so depending on the reading you adjust your stance/distance towards that person?...And when you detect an intent to hold back or conceal that emotion, you conclude that there's something "off" with that person...?
    I'd have to then conclude everyone is "off". People conceal things all the time and play with each other's emotions and energy all the time too. I dislike it and aspire not to do it. Who knows, if I were to guess I'd say maybe 75-90% of everything that transpires in social contexts is all just emotional fabrication. The most refreshing people to me are people who are just themselves and there is little screen between the out and in. Who are wonderfully the same in most environments. Ironically, this is because I am not that way, since I am constantly adjusting myself to other people. I've been really thinking about that a lot over the last few years, why I do that related to my wiring and to my childhood programming.

    If yes, I think this is analogous to what I (or other INFJs) have been feeling about @PeaceBaby and certain other posters...Just as your Fi-dom is picking up on something "off", our Ni-dom is picking up on something else "off"...
    You're picking up that I don't subscribe to the "rules" and that's true. Makes me a bit of a wild-card. I've just told you the other things you might not like about me. I might as well cop to them out loud rather than you trying to make up something else that's not accurate. Such as me being an emotional vampire!

    Your Ni sense is very real. And it's very cool and it picks up on a LOT of stuff. In this venue though, you've only got the words, eh? That's the tripping point all over this thread.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  3. #1633
    Senior Member Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    You know how I'm always asking about the why part and Fi users would find this an overly invasive way to communicate with others because it is too intrusive, while I find it to be both helpful in seeing the person accurately/compassionately, and I see it as an expression of care or interest? (And while some others of my ilk are less overtly that way, depending on instinct stacking and enneagram, I think we're more wired to problem solve in that manner). Well, maybe the Fi need to confront the crying baby is our equivalent of trying to understand what is going on with the other person. We find it demanding or invasive, or calling attention to something we already feel self-conscious of, while they see it as a key to understanding, a much needed navigational tool, and an expression of care. (And again, the way it is done depends a bit on instinct stacking and enneagram).

    I'm just throwing it out there as a hypothesis. Any INFJs or INFPs care to respond?
    This occurred to me when I read the questions March posted here- I thought they were great questions as far as helping me understand, but I did also wonder if they'd come across as invasive. Because I know the kinds of questions Fi asks- they may as well be asking me what color underwear I'm wearing (*invasive*....which isn't much of a problem with people I'm close to, but it is where intimacy/trust hasn't been established).
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  4. #1634
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    [eta]

    This thought keeps pinging in the back of my mind on this overall topic, a bit oversimplified but I'm running out of time:

    It seems to me that in a healthy relationship, having or developing mutual enacted respect for each others' articulated core needs and boundaries is crucial. If that truly isn't possible for any reason, the relationship is at serious risk for being harmful to one or both people. (And I say core needs and boundaries because a lot of things can be negotiated - but some things can't and shouldn't, as a matter of basic wellness of each person. And while core needs and boundaries can change over time, each person is responsible for articulating that as well as possible, and for listening to and respecting with action what the other says on that topic.)

    I say this as a matter of hard experience with my beloved, both of us struggling with this at first in our movement together, and settling into it more and more lately.

  5. #1635
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    The part of, "make the owner feel good" isn't totally accurate. It's not just about satisfying a need/value/insight/feeling (that it certainly part of it though), it's also about instilling that good feeling in others. ExFPs in particular are more directly interested in this. If you look at ESFPs, they're sometimes known as "the performer". They may like to act, dance, make music or do comedy because it feels good to them to experience that, but they also love bringing that same joy to others. The thing you'll find with IxFP artists (and I expect it's similar to what ExFPs do) is a desire to communicate the visceral experience of an emotion, an idea, or a truth. It might not be done to change the world or anything, it might just be saying, "here, feel this". IxFPs are so connected to emotion and can understand the fundamentals of emotion better that than perhaps any other type. With SFPs it's more specific and 'experience' driven, and with NFPs it's more 'knowledge' driven.

    You have to get away from this idea of Fi being about selfish needs. I totally agree that it can be employed that way (to a varying degree based on the individual) and that this is wrong, but it is not inherently about that. It's about the self: my self and your self. Think of it like the golden rule: "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". If Fe is about external mirroring, Fi is about internal mirroring. For me to behave selfishly I must ignore or dismiss the internal mirror of another. So this behaviour is turning away from a 'truth' that I'm accountable to, rather than a natural obsession with myself that I must get over (ie. a flawed thinking I must get past). I'm not sure if it works exactly like this for ExFPs (and your theory), there may be a slightly different aspect to it, but I believe it's fundamentally the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by March View Post
    My native interpretation is that focusing on my emotions is tantamount to pointing at someone who's blushing and going 'She's totally blushing! You see that! Yup, it's up to her ears now! Ah, lookit that, it's getting worse! Hey you there, you can see it too, can't you? No, don't pretend you can hide it, I can seeee you, and I'll get very cross with you if you don't let me revel in your embarrassment!' Or a more gauche example: Like pointing at a teen boy's involuntary erections and not giving them space to save face in public/deal with it privately, even though at that stage in life getting an erection doesn't MEAN anything.
    I'm not sure why you would think that. Personally, I keep 90% of that stuff to myself because I realise how personal and private those feelings are. It's only because we are openly discussing these things now (for one reason or another) that I bring that stuff up. Even then, there's a lot that I'm not saying...

    Fact 1: INFPs I know in real life AND INFPs on this thread say they have a strong need to not just notice but TALK about other people's feelings that aren't being expressed.
    Rarely. If I do discuss these things it's usually indirectly addressed. If I told people a lot of the things I noticed it would be like performing open heart surgery in the middle of the street. If it seems like I'm talking a lot about other people's emotions, that's only because my native language is 'feeling' (the broadest definition of the word). It might be the only way I can communicate in a way that relates to the topic of discussion.

    Fact 2: INFPs I know in real life AND INFPs on this thread are mostly good eggs, lovely people with no intention of getting one over on you, ruining your social standing, trying to pin you on a fleeting expression of emotion in order to railroad you later or trying to make you die of embarrassment.


    So I'd like to understand what makes this a priority - what does it feel like, what do you like to accomplish with it, what's going on in your head at such a time? With the express goal of seeing if I can get myself to not get my hackles up in a situation like that and finding a way we can BOTH get what we need. What would also really help me is INFPs' opinion on my 'fact 2' - the goals I would be trying to accomplish if I were to do such a thing. (Note: I never actually want to accomplish these goals, so I never do this thing.) Can you see how this interpretation would make sense, too? Can you describe a little of your worldview/thought process/goals in mind, so I can reconcile why you think these results wouldn't happen? Because I'm assuming you don't see them as acceptable collateral damage but as nonconcerns altogether, right?
    You have to imagine what it would be like if you were missing the structure of Fe. Imagine a world where there is no discernible patterns of human behaviour or framework with which to make sense of them. Imagine what it would be like if people regularly came up to you in a highly emotionally charged state, talking non-stop in another language you can't even begin to comprehend. The thing is we INFPs just plain don't know a lot of things you do; we can't see them, let alone interpret them. We have no natural framework built into us; we have to make our own. We have no way of interpreting the coded language of others, so we have to figure out the key to the cipher, one person at a time. We're not going around trying to invade people's private business because we're perversely obsessed with exposing them or criticising them. We just can't function without getting into people's heads. Every time, every time, someone speaks to me I have to ask myself, "what does that mean?", "what are they thinking?", "what would make them say that?", because the words themselves have no inherent meaning to me - I need to know the mindset with which they were spoken to interpret them. And every time, every time, I have make an educated guess about their mindset and meaning, accepting there's a chance that I'll be wrong. So I care deeply about what is going on in your head because it helps me to figure out what the hell is going on in the world around me.

    I suppose I just don't have room in my interaction process for trying to exploit my knowledge of other people's feelings. It takes up enough of my energy just trying to figure people out, I don't have much energy left for anything else. If you're a FJ you can do a lot of the figuring out with ease, so you have time leftover to think, "what am I going to do about this knowledge?". And I suppose one of side benefits of getting into people's heads is that it creates a particular brand of empathy that's hard to ignore. I guess I feel like there's a sort of sacredness to that inner world; that once you truly feel what they feel, how could you abuse those feelings? I don't know about other INFPs but I actually vaguely demarcate an area that's below the belt and not something I should go after. That's not to say I never do exploit it, but it is very rare, and I tend to feel really terrible about it afterwards.

    Or maybe I've just met some very clumsy INFPs in real life?
    Maybe
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  6. #1636
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I'm not sure why you would think that. Personally, I keep 90% of that stuff to myself because I realise how personal and private those feelings are. It's only because we are openly discussing these things now (for one reason or another) that I bring that stuff up. Even then, there's a lot that I'm not saying...
    Yes, I feel the same way. Putting the Fi data of other people out into this open arena would be tantamount to emotional sacrilege.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  7. #1637
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    That's interesting. I just realized that when I feel there is something being concealed (or at odds between the feeling I get but can't back up and what the person is saying is happening), I am likely to either wait it out if it's not too bad, treat it like a puzzle to make sense of or be patient with if I'm invested in the person. I disengage if I have no reason to carry on a conversation over any kind of crying baby, or if it starts confusing my own sense of reality and perceptions (I realize that I don't pick up on the same things Fi does, but probably Ni picks up on other things that aren't a big deal to Fi).

    You know how I'm always asking about the why part and Fi users would find this an overly invasive way to communicate with others because it is too intrusive, while I find it to be both helpful in seeing the person accurately/compassionately, and I see it as an expression of care or interest? (And while some others of my ilk are less overtly that way, depending on instinct stacking and enneagram, I think we're more wired to problem solve in that manner). Well, maybe the Fi need to confront the crying baby is our equivalent of trying to understand what is going on with the other person. We find it demanding or invasive, or calling attention to something we already feel self-conscious of, while they see it as a key to understanding, a much needed navigational tool, and an expression of care. (And again, the way it is done depends a bit on instinct stacking and enneagram).

    I'm just throwing it out there as a hypothesis. Any INFJs or INFPs care to respond?
    This sounds right. I'll give it some more thought before responding!
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  8. #1638
    Senior Member Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    @Southern Kross: I can only speak for myself, but I certainly didn’t mean to imply anything about intention on behalf of NFPs- I wasn’t even thinking it. I was merely relating how it feels on my end to be probed for those kinds of things (which is why it seems important to understand why it’s necessary in the first place).
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  9. #1639
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Southern Kross: I can only speak for myself, but I certainly didn’t mean to imply anything about intention on behalf of NFPs- I wasn’t even thinking it. I was merely relating how it feels on my end to be probed for those kinds of things (which is why it seems important to understand why it’s necessary in the first place).
    And I didn't mean to imply any annoyance at that. I'm fine with you seeing it differently from the outside (strange as it is to me).

    I just wanted to emphasise clearly what the factors are. It seems that FJs don't fully grasp what it is to be Fe-less and I wanted to express that sentiment strongly to break down that barrier. It's even worse for NFPs BTW, because it's basically a perfect storm of subjectivity and distancing the self from 'the object' (ie. leading with Fi-Ne or Ne-Fi). We're pretty much totally at sea in this world - which is OK. I like being this way. It's just that we have to grab hold of whatever we can to get by.

    I'll get back to your points and questions soon.
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    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  10. #1640
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    So elephant = white noise = insincerity = inconsistency ?
    Sort of. They fit under the same umbrella, anyway.

    Why (I mean for what purpose) do you rely on reading those inner emotions? What purpose does it serve?
    The purpose is to function in the world; to understand at any one time what is happening, why it is happening, how to make sense of it, and how to respond to it.

    Identifying friend or foe? (I've already made a few similar assumptions on that way way back...Furthermore, I think Ni-dom may also be working with the aim of making sense of people, to identify whether they are friend or foe)
    Hmm, I don't really put people into such hard and fast categories. I feel like dynamics shift too much to label someone that straight-forwardly. Foes may be friendly and friends may be antagonistic. I want to be more aware of the factors in play at the moment. Past experience with a person does matter in that it helps to put their present behaviour in context (ie. help establish a potential reading of the behaviour), but I try to not pin down my views of people too much because I worry about being unfairly prejudiced. Although, if an experience with someone does paint them in a negative light, I may estimate them with more caution in future.

    Instilling another emotion means trying to make you feel as if you were non-foe towards each other?
    Not sure I understand this. I might need this clarified further.

    Futhermore, so depending on the reading you adjust your stance/distance towards that person?
    I need to know the parameters of the interaction and your state of mind to make appropriate adjustments my behaviour and method of communicating with you. Without knowledge of the change in parameters (eg. if you get upset) there can be no adjustment. No adjustment means I will be out of sync with you and your needs. Being out of sync creates and sustains arguments.

    ...And when you detect an intent to hold back or conceal that emotion, you conclude that there's something "off" with that person...?
    Just to reiterate, I'm more than OK with concealing emotion. I would be a massive hypocrite if I did have a problem with it because I am a prime example of someone who constantly hides their feelings.

    It's more of a problem when I feel that there's emotional distortion going on (ie. taking the present emotions and making them seem like something else or an active attempt to create a smokescreen). I can handle concealment because it simply requires a little observation and mining. Besides the fact that concealment always leaves a trail of breadcrumbs that point to what is being concealed. Emotional distortion is hard for me to see past because it's so much more complex to decipher. When people go beyond basic concealment, and it turns into affectation that reads as "off" to me. We are not in sync when that happens, even though on the surface we may appear so. At first it's perhaps more that the interaction seems "off", not necessarily that the person is bad news. Sometimes it's malicious, but sometimes the person means well and is causing confusion.

    If yes, I think this is analogous to what I (or other INFJs) have been feeling about PeaceBaby and certain other posters...Just as your Fi-dom is picking up on something "off", our Ni-dom is picking up on something else "off"...
    I guess.

    What's missing here is why I may have done such a thing (if any)? Fear of confrontation? or and ulterior motive to take advantage of someone?
    What do you mean?

    Southern Kross Can you give a simple example on an instance where such concealment and manipulation happened?
    Probably not a good example but:

    I remember a ExFJ girl (probably ENFJ) at my school who a lot of people described as fake. She was always smiling and friendly, pleasant to people that were a lot less popular than she was (me being one of them). Some people read this as obnoxious and condescending. I think it was partly how forced it was, how out of proportion (and out of sync) her mood and behaviour was to the situation/context. It made some people react to and read her in the complete opposite to the way to she intended. It did bother me a bit and made me a bit wary of her. How did I know if she wasn't just playing with me and laughing behind my back (I was bullied a lot in school)? How could I trust someone that seemed to be disguising superiority with humility? If she's 'lying' about that what else is she lying about?

    I did come to get over this suspicion and accept that she probably meant well, but I remember my ESFP friend being unforgiving in hatred of her, even after many years. I remember voting for the ExFJ for the student executive (ie. the student council, made up of Year 13 students) and when my friend found out she ripped me apart for it. I told her that I thought the ExFJ would be good at the job as she is good with people, intelligent, motivated and highly organised - with these qualities it didn't really matter what I thought of her personally. But my friend couldn't look past the affectation; she couldn't feel trust or respect for her. She couldn't encourage the behaviour of someone who hid self-aggrandisement behind the simpering facade - she didn't want to reward her with actual power and influence. After her reaction I wondered if I made a mistake. I don't believe I did, but it's still difficult to read the situation. It's hard to know what to think.

    I guess that's the problem, I don't know what to think of people who act like that. It's white noise for my Fi.

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    In a way, this^ sounds almost exactly like what drives me to slap the 'incompatible' label on someone and distance myself. I'm okay with other people saying one thing and doing/being another- so long as I'm not in the least bit dependent on believing what they say.
    Ah, here's the sticky part of problem: I am dependent on what they say. Not necessarily literally what they "say" per se, but I have to go on what they communicate to me; on the signs (or breadcrumbs) they sent out. I don't have another basis with which to evaluate you; I only have you.

    But as soon as I notice certain discrepancies (realizing the whole time I'm especially sensitive, and that my personal threshold prevents me from functioning well around too much inconsistency in situations where other people seem to do just fine)- I distance myself because the only alternative seems to be an attempt at actually controlling something about the other person (which is a loathesome prospect to me).
    Well, I can't even control people even if I wanted to. It's not really in my skillset

    So how do you handle this? If you don't distance yourself and the other person just doesn’t have this same need for things to ‘match’ in the way that you do (like the mother speaking to the baby as if it isn’t crying- all the while it’s become difficult to even hear what the mother is saying over the crying), how do you reconcile that?
    If I distanced myself from everyone who ever did this, I'd be very lonely. A lot of people do this at some point, from my perspective anyway. It might not be the extreme version and it might not be done with negative intentions, but it still happens. I'm more aware of this stuff and more sensitive to it than most people.

    There's different ways to handle it depending how bad it is and regularly it occurs. Sometimes I just have to let it go and ignore the problem. People are what they are, and some people seriously lack self-awareness and that's never gonna change. The problem usually resolves itself one way or another, anyway (not that it's pleasant). OTOH some people might need a little coaxing to remember to pay attention to the baby. Sometimes I can just bypass the mother and do something about the baby in some unintrusive way - like waving a toy in its face in hopes of comforting it. If someone does it a lot and I feel like it's too much, I will step back from them.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Maybe you're right. I'll have to think on that more.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

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