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  1. #1621
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    That's nothing. My parents practically almost got divorced over the choice of paving stones. They gave up on choosing curtains because they fought so much over it. 15 years on, the house still doesn't have any.
    I have been thinking for a long time that if INFP and I ever own a place together, we will buy furniture with changeable covers and curtains with holes up top that just go on a simple rail so we can always switch them out. Oh, and maybe we can also have our own bedroom as well, each room fully fitted with a double bed, wardrobe and sitting space. We'll even sacrifice the living room for that. This is a very serious thought.

    4w5 sp/sx EII

  2. #1622
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    This thread stinks of some new ppl farting. Discuss.
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  3. #1623
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    In my experience with typology, "conditioned to react" has much more to do with Enneagram type than MBTI type. For instance, I am a type 9 INTJ. I don't react like Type 5 INTJs, much less Type 8 or Type 1 or Type 6 INTJs. But I think like all of those different types of INTJs.
    So the cognitive functions are the weapons at my disposal and my enneagram type(s) affect the style I wield them with...

    How does Fe-aux work (any different) for other INFJs?

    @uumlau can you describe what kinds of major differences you've noticed between different types of INTJs?

    Your demeanor reminds of papa smurf somehow by the way...(and mine grouchy smurf ...perhaps my 6 is more dominant than my 1)

  4. #1624
    I want my account deleted
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    Quote Originally Posted by digesthisickness View Post
    I'm not sure. Does it count that I want to doorslam you, an INFJ?
    "Doorslam" - I do not think that word means what you think it means.

  5. #1625
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    If, however, I feel like someone is playing games with my emotions it's another thing. With NFJs and conflict there can be both the concealment of the inner emotion as well as an active effort to instil a totally different emotion inside me, both directly and more obliquely. Those little emotional adjustments you make in others in this case are seen as a distortion. It's not hiding the emotions that's the problem, it's throwing out very skilled signals that seem like a deliberate effort to distract and obfuscate. If on top of this, you emphasise to me how honest you're being with me or how much you really want to clear up the issue, I think, "LIAR!" . So then the inconsistency becomes a sort of elephant itself. Then what do I do? I'm juggling 2 elephants and multiple levels of distortion, and I can't figure out which aspect to address, which to ignore, and which to call you out on.

    EDIT: I guess what I mean by the above paragraph is that I see all the cogs working away inside the machine when NFJs do that and I don't think you guys realise this. I imagine that you'd prefer people didn't see that part because it complicates and alters the intended outcome. So it's not great for either of us then.
    So elephant = white noise = insincerity = inconsistency ?

    I am trying to pinpoint if I do this as well...

    Why (I mean for what purpose) do you rely on reading those inner emotions? What purpose does it serve? Identifying friend or foe? (I've already made a few similar assumptions on that way way back...Furthermore, I think Ni-dom may also be working with the aim of making sense of people, to identify whether they are friend or foe)

    Instilling another emotion means trying to make you feel as if you were non-foe towards each other?

    Futhermore, so depending on the reading you adjust your stance/distance towards that person?...And when you detect an intent to hold back or conceal that emotion, you conclude that there's something "off" with that person...?

    If yes, I think this is analogous to what I (or other INFJs) have been feeling about @PeaceBaby and certain other posters...Just as your Fi-dom is picking up on something "off", our Ni-dom is picking up on something else "off"...

    What's missing here is why I may have done such a thing (if any)? Fear of confrontation? or and ulterior motive to take advantage of someone?

    @Southern Kross Can you give a simple example on an instance where such concealment and manipulation happened?

  6. #1626
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    eta: And @Werebudgie- I hear you about the Fe thing. Sometimes it feels like the focus on Fi/Fe only works to invalidate/dismiss something about the NFJ point of view. I don't know how to explain it, but yeah, there's a problem there.
    I keep feeling like a clear articulation of this problem in the thread is right over the edge of my conscious view. It would be a multi-part thing - there's a metaphor I can't quite find and an overall description of the shape or setup I can't quite get at. So I'm with you on not knowing how to explain it.

    random thoughts/question (nothing anywhere near accurate yet, just trying to begin surfacing it from my perspective - oh and to be clear, my own specific focus isn't on NFJ, but INFJ - the Fe-aux part is what gets my attention. Anyway, random thoughts/questions:

    1. Could it be that on this topic (or on this topic in the thread), we keep thinking that we're being asked about our actual lived experiences and realities as part of some process of others seeking to understand - but that's not really what's going on overall, so there's a disconnect in goals or something like that?

    2. Is there a name or metaphor for a relationship in which one person prefers that the other continues or deepens self-harming behavior, and acts/interacts to prevent that person's movement out of that behavior? (Like person B saying: "When I eat too much sugar, it makes me physically sick" and moving to change their eating habits, and Person A constantly pushing candy and sugary baked goods on them, telling them that the refusal of the food means they're too puritanical and need to loosen up and enjoy life more.)

    FWIW ... or not.

  7. #1627
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    I actually had a similiar question go through my mind in reading SK’s post. (eta: similar to what yeghor posted above)

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Well, there's almost always an incongruence between the inner and outer worlds. This happens for a variety of reasons: sometimes people try to disguise their weaknesses/flaws; sometimes people are uncomfortable with sharing a feeling and need to put on a smiling face to avoid potentially awkward questions; and sometimes people just lose sight of their true self. I'm more than OK with that - I get it. Normally I just pretend not to notice, skirt the issue or do something to help that person out.

    The problem comes when that inconsistency is leaving me at a crossroads as to what to do about it. Sometimes as you say, it can be that their inner state is screaming at me like that baby and I can't stand the silliness of the front. Can you imagine the mother smiling and chatting away as the baby cries hysterically? It just seems crazy. Beside the fact I'm struggling to even hear what she's saying over the cries. Another situation is when I sense there's problem between me and the other person. Conflict is scary to me, especially when people seem annoyed or dissatisfied with me and I don't know why. I referenced in an earlier post that I see a lot of capriciousness in my world, so I value clarity when things go wrong. I don't want to fuck things up with people and not be able to fix that.
    In a way, this^ sounds almost exactly like what drives me to slap the 'incompatible' label on someone and distance myself. I'm okay with other people saying one thing and doing/being another- so long as I'm not in the least bit dependent on believing what they say. But as soon as I notice certain discrepancies (realizing the whole time I'm especially sensitive, and that my personal threshold prevents me from functioning well around too much inconsistency in situations where other people seem to do just fine)- I distance myself because the only alternative seems to be an attempt at actually controlling something about the other person (which is a loathesome prospect to me).

    So how do you handle this? If you don't distance yourself and the other person just doesn’t have this same need for things to ‘match’ in the way that you do (like the mother speaking to the baby as if it isn’t crying- all the while it’s become difficult to even hear what the mother is saying over the crying), how do you reconcile that?





    [eta]
    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  8. #1628
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    In a way, this^ sounds almost exactly like what drives me to slap the 'incompatible' label on someone and distance myself. I'm okay with other people saying one thing and doing/being another- so long as I'm not in the least bit dependent on believing what they say. But as soon as I notice certain discrepancies (realizing the whole time I'm especially sensitive, and that my personal threshold prevents me from function around too much inconsistency)- I distance myself because the only alternative seems to be an attempt at actually controlling something about the other person.

    So how do you handle this? If you don't distance yourself and the other person just doesn’t have this same need for things to ‘match’ in the way that you do (like the mother speaking to the baby as if it isn’t crying- all the while it’s become difficult to even hear what the mother is saying over the crying), how do you get rid of this?
    I cannot answer for @Southern Kross (of course!) but want to share some info from discussions my INFP and I have had that may (or may really not) be relevant in some way. Putting it behind the spoiler because you weren't asking me and also I don't know if it is directly relevant:


  9. #1629
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    That's interesting. I just realized that when I feel there is something being concealed (or at odds between the feeling I get but can't back up and what the person is saying is happening), I am likely to either wait it out if it's not too bad, treat it like a puzzle to make sense of or be patient with if I'm invested in the person. I disengage if I have no reason to carry on a conversation over any kind of crying baby, or if it starts confusing my own sense of reality and perceptions (I realize that I don't pick up on the same things Fi does, but probably Ni picks up on other things that aren't a big deal to Fi).

    You know how I'm always asking about the why part and Fi users would find this an overly invasive way to communicate with others because it is too intrusive, while I find it to be both helpful in seeing the person accurately/compassionately, and I see it as an expression of care or interest? (And while some others of my ilk are less overtly that way, depending on instinct stacking and enneagram, I think we're more wired to problem solve in that manner). Well, maybe the Fi need to confront the crying baby is our equivalent of trying to understand what is going on with the other person. We find it demanding or invasive, or calling attention to something we already feel self-conscious of, while they see it as a key to understanding, a much needed navigational tool, and an expression of care. (And again, the way it is done depends a bit on instinct stacking and enneagram).

    I'm just throwing it out there as a hypothesis. Any INFJs or INFPs care to respond?

  10. #1630
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    ...Lack of intention doesn't excuse everything, but I think it's easy to read intention where none my exist ("never ascribe to malice...").
    I agree with parts I left out but couldn't exactly get the malice part...

    And yes, intention reading may fail...but Ni is specifically geared towards bringing pieces together and making sense of them...and it gets more accurate in time...especially when calibrated by cross-checking with reliable sources...Suspecting reliability of Ni perception of a Ni-dom is not any different from suspecting the reliability of Fi judgment of a Fi-dom...Yeah it must be calibrated/balanced with auxillary or tertiary functions...there's already much discussion available on this (and how to stop doorslam in its tracks) in earlier pages...

    I am not sure whether it is "easy" to misread intention...It is easy for a human to hit his foot somewhere when in the dark but is it that easy for a cat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    I think there's a parallel from INFPs when we tend to withhold expressing judgment until it builds up and comes out all at once: the "being easy-going" thing only goes so far. Going from thinking things are (mostly) fine, to getting chewed out with a backlog of judgment is not fun (as I discovered at the hands of a fellow INFP). Similarly, being shut out without warning is equally upsetting, no doubt.
    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    So you are saying that there other ways to end relationships which are equally "bad" or unilateral? I would agree with that. (And, as mentioned above, the FP suddenly lashing out thing is less than charming, too.)
    So can you draw a parallel to that and see what kind of internal feelings or external actions may be leading INFJs (in some cases) to resorting to doorslam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    I guess I'd say that Ni, that Fi, isn't infallible. I think both tend to think they have a hold on "the truth," even though neither can ever have the full picture. I don't anyone is denying the right to decide for oneself whether one should continue a relationship. Still, one hopes there are warnings along the way, so that issues can be resolved, rather than build up (see FP lashing out mentioned above, as an equivalent).
    I concur...it requires more assertiveness...and confrontation...

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    I think Ni is personal...It's based on the patterns synthesized thru what the Ni-dom has experienced and observed in life...It can later on recognize those patterns as well as make extrapolations from them to imagine how something may end up...So it's dependent on that personal (ever-evolving) database...

    It is OTOH is a fuzzy/sub-conscious framework...Ni-dom does know the Ni conclusion but does not (in some cases) readily know why it makes sense...it requires length Ti-tert analysis to make sense out of it that can be perceived in a conscious manner...

    Fe-aux is I guess (at least in my case) rather about measuring the pulse of invidiuals and the collective (society) to notice patterns pointing at the distressed/troubled parts of the collective system (thru additional Ni-Ti analysis perhaps)...in case of Fe-aux (and Ni-dom) it is not built on consensus but rather on patterns that Ni picks up within the collective...

    Fe-aux can opt to work against dominant collective culture built on consensus if Ni concludes that it's required to do so for a better collective system...I don't know if Fe-dom does that...

    In summary, yes I agree with your point that Ni insights may feel very right/correct to a Ni-dom however they are also not set in stone... Additional incoming data may override an existing conclusion, resulting in a different conclusion...so Ni-dom can also adjust/change course along the way...it does not move in a single bearing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    Thanks for sharing this...From what I observe IRL, most people do not dwell, as much as what we describe here as the ideal case, on their actions and decisions...they do not doubt themselves when making decisions this much...so isn't it a bit impractical to expect this much of self-scrutiny only from a certain group of people? Aren't we unnecessarily binding ourselves?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    Well, in the thread I've felt I've been expected to put my head in the guiillotine...

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    ...Still, it seems like group coordination isn't the only explanation for hearing the same thing from multiple individual sources from either side.
    You are saying or willing to concede that this can apply in either directions aren't you?

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