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  1. #1611

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    We're all stardust snow flakes.
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
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    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  2. #1612
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    So I hope this doesn't all come across as just arguing or defending the other side. At best (which I'm sure I'll fall short of), I hope this is a way of saying "this is how it looks from here" or maybe even "there's more than one way to see it." Plus, I think it's more about different perspectives than "sides", although talking typology means grouping people together artificially, to some degree.

    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Here's what's been going wrong in this thread IMO (not necessarily a complete list):

    • Suggesting that INFJs doorslam therefore there's something "wrong" with them and expecting INFJs to prove that they are not "wrong"...thereby starting the dialogue on wrong foot/premises...rather then trying to identify what may have gone "wrong in the communication/relationship" and how to rectify it at both ends...using circular logic/self fulfilling logic to that end (like dismissing clarification by INFJs why it might not be so or something else on that INFJ "wrongness")...failure/reluctance to introspect...
    So, from my perspective, I don't think the "doorslam" is itself necessarily wrong (it might be completely justified and self-protective), or universal to every INFJ. Still, when they do happen, I think it may feel unexpected and unilateral from the other side. It's clearly better not to get to that point, and I hope that in some cases earlier communication could prevent getting to the doorslam point. Lack of intention doesn't excuse everything, but I think it's easy to read intention where none my exist ("never ascribe to malice...").

    I think there's a parallel from INFPs when we tend to withhold expressing judgment until it builds up and comes out all at once: the "being easy-going" thing only goes so far. Going from thinking things are (mostly) fine, to getting chewed out with a backlog of judgment is not fun (as I discovered at the hands of a fellow INFP). Similarly, being shut out without warning is equally upsetting, no doubt.

    And, personally, I haven't been "doorslammed" by an INFJ (although I do have some periodic ongoing friction with one of my two best friends from college who is INFJ). Still, I fear that my blindness to trends over time will lead me to misstep, and then get locked out without knowing it is coming.

    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    • Lack of critical thought and self-criticism...inability/reluctance to introspect and empathize whether one has also abruptly ended relationships in the past (either by drifting away or doorslam or by lashing out or by any other means) and to draw parallels between the two so as to introspect/extrapolate the source of the problem or the action...
    So you are saying that there other ways to end relationships which are equally "bad" or unilateral? I would agree with that. (And, as mentioned above, the FP suddenly lashing out thing is less than charming, too.)

    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    • Suggesting that INFJs should not rely on their main/dominant Ni perception (but the doorslammees') as it may be unreliable but failure/reluctance to draw parallels to one's main/dominant function in the process in terms of unreliability...Questioning INFJs' right/ability to decide for themselves about the relationship, particularly when one does not apply the same questioning to oneself first...
    I guess I'd say that Ni, that Fi, isn't infallible. I think both tend to think they have a hold on "the truth," even though neither can ever have the full picture. I don't anyone is denying the right to decide for oneself whether one should continue a relationship. Still, one hopes there are warnings along the way, so that issues can be resolved, rather than build up (see FP lashing out mentioned above, as an equivalent).

    I do wonder sometimes, though, if both Ni and Fe feel "impersonal" in a certain kind of way. Ni-ers describe feeling that their insights don't belong to them, and give a kind of perspective and truth that is experienced as above the fray, with eyes on the horizon. Fe is kind of impersonal, too (even though it can be warm and affirming), in that it's not entirely subjective and grows out of group consensus and proven efficacy in the social realm. It seems like that combination of factors would make it particular difficult to see alternative viewpoints, particularly when they don't align with either one's Ni insights, or Fe evaluations. It seems like both Ni and Fe lead to what's subjectively experienced as "the truth." But no individual has access to the whole truth, and limited information and bias (whether individual or group) have their effect.

    So, to make a nod towards being fair (and again, I think personal biases limit how even-handed one can be in practice), I think INFPs have a couple of tendencies that can lead towards bad outcomes. One is the withholding of building judgment mentioned above. Another is kind of denial of inevitability. Fi is tuned into d and subtle gradations. Ne is tuned to the possibilities emerging from the present perception. In combination they can lead to a stance that THIS time is different and unique (subtle differences in Fi evaluations) and that THIS time different outcomes are possible (Ne seeing many possibilities). Sometimes that amounts to fooling oneself as one walks down the primrose path to destruction, ignoring warnings from others.

    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    • Deflecting questions or giving back vague answers to questions...justifying that by claiming INFJs are projecting or trying to move the discussion away from themselves...Lack of reciprocity, clarity and honest dialogue...
    I think specifics can be tough for a couple of reasons. First, perceptions about feeling matters (esp for intuitives) tend to be vague and not directly tied to easily relatable perception. This lack of specificity gives lots of room for projection and interpretation (from both sides). Second, when one gives specifics, follow-on critiques can't help but be specific and personalized. In most respects this seems like a lose/lose... and I've seen cases where it played out that way here. Doesn't exactly make one feel compelled to place one's head in the guillotine.... even if I understand that it's frustrating trying to defend against the vague.

    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    • Lack of criticism (and even reinforcement) by other non-INJF posters to people displaying abovegiven characteristics...accusing INFJs of acting based on group dynamics when INFJs' perception regarding such people converge to a singularity and when INFJs criticize/question/cut contact with such people (which (the accusing thing) is ironically another group dynamic in itself)...
    I guess I don't feel subjectively like I'm part of a big group attacking the INFJs (nor do I feel like there's a unified group). I'm really, really bad at tracking group dynamics and am not good at politicking. At best I'm (mostly) blissfully unaware, at worse I'm dangerously inept, I suppose. Maybe that makes it hard for me to see coordination and group dynamics when they exist. Still, it seems like group coordination isn't the only explanation for hearing the same thing from multiple individual sources from either side.


    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post
    We're all stardust snow flakes.
    "We are made of star-stuff. We are a way for the universe to know itself." I guess even snowflakes are made of star-stuff.

  3. #1613

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    ...
    Thank you for your post...I hope to respond to it in detail later...But for starters I do not think that the disconnect here is exclusively related to/between INFJs and INFPs...

    So my points were not addressed specifically to INFPs...

    Also everyone please be mindful that we are not Fe-dom but Fe-aux...Fe-aux (IMO) is not order/harmony for the sake of harmony but for the sake of people (so that they can live/function together (like a collective system) with least amount of friction/discontent/trouble)...

    Fe-aux to me feels like a radar that continously pings for distress/trouble in the system and the environment...and I've been conditioned to react to that distress so as to alleviate it...if I do not control that reflex, it puts me in trouble..I may end up ignoring my own distress for the sake of others'...I dive too deep into the ocean...it starts suffocating me...

    That's an essential part of the doorslam dynamic...rushing for the surface to take a breather...All these have already been mentioned in earlier posts though...I do not want to re-start sub-discussions on them but continue from your post...

    Just clarifying it..

    Thanks...

  4. #1614
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Fe-aux to me feels like a radar that continously pings for distress/trouble in the system and the environment...and I've been conditioned to react to that distress so as to alleviate it...if I do not control that reflex, it puts me in trouble..I may end up ignoring my own distress for the sake of others'...I dive too deep into the ocean...it starts suffocating me...
    In my experience with typology, "conditioned to react" has much more to do with Enneagram type than MBTI type. For instance, I am a type 9 INTJ. I don't react like Type 5 INTJs, much less Type 8 or Type 1 or Type 6 INTJs. But I think like all of those different types of INTJs.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  5. #1615
    Member March's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    It's kind of like asking, "Why can't you ignore the thing you inherently consider a priority, for just a moment, to hear what I'm telling you is my priority?"
    Ah, I feel the need to clarify my stance here.

    I did NOT ask 'Why CAN'T you' (let alone something like 'Why can't you JUST' - holy invalidation, Batman! Not that you were accusing me of that, but if you could read 'Why can't you' in 'Why do you', it's easy for others to misread that one step further).

    I asked 'Can you tell me how this works? Because I WANT to bend your way and I don't GET it and if I don't GET it I can't do something that's so uncomfortable for me.'

    My native interpretation is that focusing on my emotions is tantamount to pointing at someone who's blushing and going 'She's totally blushing! You see that! Yup, it's up to her ears now! Ah, lookit that, it's getting worse! Hey you there, you can see it too, can't you? No, don't pretend you can hide it, I can seeee you, and I'll get very cross with you if you don't let me revel in your embarrassment!' Or a more gauche example: Like pointing at a teen boy's involuntary erections and not giving them space to save face in public/deal with it privately, even though at that stage in life getting an erection doesn't MEAN anything.

    Now I know that this is an interpretation from the point of the person whose emotions are being focused on, and 99% likely NOT to be the correct interpretation of the mindset of the people wanting to focus on my emotions.

    But I can't GET to a native understanding of that. I've turned it around and around in my head, and it doesn't gel.

    Fact 1: INFPs I know in real life AND INFPs on this thread say they have a strong need to not just notice but TALK about other people's feelings that aren't being expressed.
    Fact 2: INFPs I know in real life AND INFPs on this thread are mostly good eggs, lovely people with no intention of getting one over on you, ruining your social standing, trying to pin you on a fleeting expression of emotion in order to railroad you later or trying to make you die of embarrassment.

    So I'd like to understand what makes this a priority - what does it feel like, what do you like to accomplish with it, what's going on in your head at such a time? With the express goal of seeing if I can get myself to not get my hackles up in a situation like that and finding a way we can BOTH get what we need. What would also really help me is INFPs' opinion on my 'fact 2' - the goals I would be trying to accomplish if I were to do such a thing. (Note: I never actually want to accomplish these goals, so I never do this thing.) Can you see how this interpretation would make sense, too? Can you describe a little of your worldview/thought process/goals in mind, so I can reconcile why you think these results wouldn't happen? Because I'm assuming you don't see them as acceptable collateral damage but as nonconcerns altogether, right?

    Or maybe I've just met some very clumsy INFPs in real life? INFPs on this thread haven't said HOW they'd quiz someone about their emotional states, just that they want to and sometimes do so. If it'd be a discreet "Psst, I'm picking up on some unexpressed frustration here - correct?" "Yup. But I don't want to talk about it right now." "OK." I'd be fine with that.

  6. #1616
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    I keep thinking: How many times do INFJs have to describe Fe-aux as it truly works in us for our descriptions to be taken in as real information - not trivialized, ignored, overridden, assigned to different sources, etc?

    There is real information in the descriptions that some INFJs share about Fe-aux's possibly damaging effects on us. In this thread, it seems to me that this information tends to get pushed to the side or otherwise not taken in for what it is. Which is really odd to me, since in real life, this information has not been at all difficult or controversial when I express it to my partner or my friends. I wasn't initially sure if my experiences were specific to me, or were broader. But I've seen other INFJs express similar things and I think this is relevant information.

    While Fe-aux can be a wonderful resource for survival and other things, it can also have truly detrimental effects on at least some INFJs and/or at some stages of our life trajectories. As I see it, ignoring, trivializing, overriding from outside the experience, or mis-sourcing this information about Fe-aux's detrimental effects grants legitimacy for people to push on us to move/respond/choose in ways that can harm us. It also legitimizes the assumption that if we protest such pushes on us, there's something wrong with us.

    There's something about some of Fe-aux's realities, as an aux function in INFJs, that for whatever reason doesn't fit the paradigm here - but are, nonetheless, actual lived reality and information.

    It's like there's a background framework here of "how things are" re: Fe (which is Fe-aux in INFJs) and when any of us shares a description that falls outside of that model, that information is discarded one way or another because it doesn't fit the model. Or something like that.

    I wonder why this information is so challenging or otherwise outside of the hearing zone in this particular context. This situation continues to strike me as some sort of possible key in the doorslam discussion.

  7. #1617
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by March View Post
    I did NOT ask 'Why CAN'T you' (let alone something like 'Why can't you JUST' - holy invalidation, Batman! Not that you were accusing me of that, but if you could read 'Why can't you' in 'Why do you', it's easy for others to misread that one step further).

    I asked 'Can you tell me how this works? Because I WANT to bend your way and I don't GET it and if I don't GET it I can't do something that's so uncomfortable for me.'
    Apologies for my clumsiness, that isn’t how I’d interpreted your post- my tone was actually more about how I feel the approach too often looks in these threads. For all I know, this is just another example of an INFJ (me) needing something said ‘the right way’, but when it’s stated the way you’ve stated it above- I absolutely agree it’s infinitely easier to answer. It paves the way for a more dialogical exchange.

    To clarify: my post wasn’t necessarily a direct response to your post, I quoted it because it spurred some thoughts. The ‘elephant’ thing has been standing out to me as significant. I’ve been thinking about how it goes both ways- and I feel like a great deal of what INFJs get criticized for is actually our own ‘elephant’ (invisible to others, and therefore petty/erroneous motivations are ascribed to the things that distract us). <- That is actually a recurring theme in these NFP/NFJ threads. (As I’d mentioned) Ni and Fi both have different unconscious priorities- we’re pulled to investigate different criteria of information. Quite often I find the petty presuppositions tossed around are a big obstacle because they get proffered at a faster pace than I can understand what feels ‘off’ about them, and I end up feeling frustrated and giving up (with the consequence of that person plummeting on the ‘tier mechanism’- all without being able to explain why, because it’s all too vague to put into words…..I’ll just have the distinct feeling that it must not be as much a priority to that person to be ‘fair’ as I personally need dialogue to be).

    Also, I feel like a great deal of the criticism sounds like, “if only you’d realize your elephant is not important.” Or even, “I really like INFJs, I just wish they’d realize the thing they consider ‘the elephant in the room’ isn’t important.” I think this is why many of us have said, “It’s actually okay and available to not like INFJs- just steer clear of us if we’re so annoying.” Because if you really can’t stand the INFJ ‘elephant’, then you actually don’t like INFJs (and that’s okay, it’s okay to not like us but it’s not okay to try to change us or guilt us into being something more convenient for you).

    [ @Seymour- I believe these last two paragraphs actually kinda answer one (or two) of your questions (and I thought those were thoughtful questions, btw).]


    Quote Originally Posted by March View Post
    My native interpretation is that focusing on my emotions is tantamount to pointing at someone who's blushing and going 'She's totally blushing! You see that! Yup, it's up to her ears now! Ah, lookit that, it's getting worse! Hey you there, you can see it too, can't you? No, don't pretend you can hide it, I can seeee you, and I'll get very cross with you if you don't let me revel in your embarrassment!' Or a more gauche example: Like pointing at a teen boy's involuntary erections and not giving them space to save face in public/deal with it privately, even though at that stage in life getting an erection doesn't MEAN anything.

    Now I know that this is an interpretation from the point of the person whose emotions are being focused on, and 99% likely NOT to be the correct interpretation of the mindset of the people wanting to focus on my emotions.
    This is something that has come up before, in various past threads. I believe the way fid once phrased it (apologies to fid, as this is a relatively crude analogy….but the crudeness of it is what makes it effective in regard to the ‘save face’ aspect) is that it’s like there’s a need to point out someone farted and to discuss it. While I personally might make a joke, to lighten the embarrassment/gravity- how you described it above is how the NFP approach feels to me sometimes. It’s foreign to me as well, and (if the person is not in my inner circle) I personally find it invasive. So yeah, it is a need that I find hard to understand too.

    Quote Originally Posted by March View Post

    So I'd like to understand what makes this a priority - what does it feel like, what do you like to accomplish with it, what's going on in your head at such a time? With the express goal of seeing if I can get myself to not get my hackles up in a situation like that and finding a way we can BOTH get what we need. What would also really help me is INFPs' opinion on my 'fact 2' - the goals I would be trying to accomplish if I were to do such a thing. (Note: I never actually want to accomplish these goals, so I never do this thing.) Can you see how this interpretation would make sense, too? Can you describe a little of your worldview/thought process/goals in mind, so I can reconcile why you think these results wouldn't happen? Because I'm assuming you don't see them as acceptable collateral damage but as nonconcerns altogether, right?

    Or maybe I've just met some very clumsy INFPs in real life? INFPs on this thread haven't said HOW they'd quiz someone about their emotional states, just that they want to and sometimes do so. If it'd be a discreet "Psst, I'm picking up on some unexpressed frustration here - correct?" "Yup. But I don't want to talk about it right now." "OK." I'd be fine with that.
    I think these are great questions.

    [Of course, I can’t answer them- but thought I’d throw in (to prove that sometimes I listen) that it seems clearly stating something like, “I don’t know what I’m feeling” and/or “I don’t want to talk about it right now” is infinitely better than saying, “I’m not angry!” when there’s clearly some agitation.]

    eta: And @Werebudgie- I hear you about the Fe thing. Sometimes it feels like the focus on Fi/Fe only works to invalidate/dismiss something about the NFJ point of view. I don't know how to explain it, but yeah, there's a problem there.
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  8. #1618
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    Gee! I wonder what your post is really about!

    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    It's like there's a background framework here of "how things are" re: Fe (which is Fe-aux in INFJs) and when any of us shares a description that falls outside of that model, that information is discarded one way or another because it doesn't fit the model.
    "Physician," heal thyself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    I wonder why this information is so challenging or otherwise outside of the hearing zone in this particular context. This situation continues to strike me as some sort of possible key in the doorslam discussion.
    I'm not sure. Does it count that I want to doorslam you, an INFJ?
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  9. #1619
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by March View Post
    So this is a serious question, INFPs: considering that it might be hard to impossible for INFJs to not bring up disagreements if they arise after a certain period of harmony (and granting that INFJs should to their damnedest to try to match pace with INFPs in disagreeing early), how can we best introduce the need to spell out a disagreement without making you feel tricked?
    Show the process externally a little. An about-face is only an about-face if others get no information of what went on in between. If you hide your thought process people only see what's going on the outside. If you say "we're good" and there's no information to the contrary, I'm going to assume we're on good terms right up until you say, "I have a serious problem with you". I personally need the in-between parts to help see that something's going wrong and perhaps do something about before it becomes a "serious problem". I know you guys like to really figure things out before you say stuff, but all you need to do is say, "I'm feel uncertain on my earlier position" or "I'm still figuring things out" because at least that lets on to me that things aren't decided yet.

    You see, when the people around me make fairly definite statements, that helps me to know where to build from. I can see we agree on that point so I can move my foundations to that spot and set up camp. It gives me a framework, a jumping off point that helps me understand what's going on around me and at what point to move forward. If I move my foundations to somewhere that was never solid in the first place I can feel quite upset about it. The world is a highly capricious and shifting place for an INFP, because we don't have Je or Pi high up in our function order to ground us. I need to look around and find elements that say, "you can trust in this" - like the solid land of an island in the middle of the ocean. If you communicate that something is solid, I set up camp, then later on the whole thing gives way beneath me, I can feel anything from anger, to betrayal, to disillusionment, to fear of all the implications. If you say, "this ground is semi-solid but I'm not certain about it yet", I can leave my base camp back a stage and wait (or work with you) until we have something solid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    Obviously I misunderstood. To clarify, I think she gains pleasure and insights from discussions with INFJs in spite of some disagreements, as opposed to taking pleasure in provoking and arguing with them. I don't see her as some sort of emotional vampire, if that's what you mean.

    Which part don't you get? The hunger and void behind the hunger part, some or all of the following note, both? If you could focus me better with specific parts and if possible specific questions, I'd think I'd be better able answer your question.
    All of it. What void? What hunger?

    Thank you for accepting it. And just to be clear, my boundary setting with you about conversation #1 and #2 isn't specific to or even primarily sourced in the PeaceBaby part of our discussion. It's more general, based on my emerging understanding of where you and I are each coming overall, when in comes to Ni-Se perception, at least in INFJs. (If I've misunderstood where you're coming from more generally we could talk about it to get me clear, but it was based on various pieces of information even beyond our dialogue).
    Please note, I simply accept that you perceive things that way and don't seek to (dramatically) change it. I personally don't agree with all of your assessments of her.

    Sorry for the confusion.

    PB is a INFP, I have no doubt in my mind. I've spent years interacting with her here and I've never even suspected her as being another type, which is not always the case with other posters I've encountered on TC. I identify with her feelings; I don't feel exactly the same as she does, but it makes sense to me. I don't know why your partner doesn't see it at all.


    There are many explanations why PB may speak in Ti tones. Maybe she's trying to adapt her method of speaking in hopes of better connecting with the INFJs (ie. Ji-Ji). Also she's a Social-dom (like myself), so more of her energy goes into adapting to other people in an attempt to achieve harmony.

    Personally, I can sound a lot like INTP at times. Many of the people that know me would probably mistakenly type me as one. When I'm being short with people I probably sound even more like one, and I suppose PB is feeling a bit short of patience now. The other explanation is that her irritation (which is much more likely related to Te-inf expression) is reading as Ti to you, seeing as you are a Ti user and are perhaps more inclined to see it that way.

    Regardless, I think it's a big leap to say she is speaking in "trigger tones". She might be angry or upset but that does not mean she intentionally wishes to provoke or manipulate. INFPs are actually highly unlikely to take that path. If we're serious pissed off we kick in the front door; we don't sneak through the side window. We don't have the knack for the sort of underhand tactics - by the time we're actually angry enough to take action, we lack the patience and restraint to channel the feeling with any real purpose. I think INFJ sometimes assume we are capable of this because they are themselves more oblique operators, and people often make the mistake of reading the behaviour of others as if they had the same sort of thought process as themselves.

    I see her behaviour as kicking in the front door, personally. You can read it otherwise if you wish, but I don't like the implication that I've been somehow duped by her. Please give me more credit than that. I'm an INFP, a connoisseur of emotion; this is my area of speciality.

    I think we'd best agree to disagree on this matter and move on.
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  10. #1620
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by March View Post
    Interesting.

    I wonder, why do you feel the need to 'fight it out' out loud? If your insight into other people's state of mind is superior (which it sure seems to be from your stories - this is not a dig in any way but a granting of 'you can obviously do things I can't') AND you tend to trust your Fi, why talk about it? You KNOW, right?

    I'm put in mind of arguments I used to have with my (INFP) mother. I'd be hiding how I felt, she'd be chasing after me going "But you're feeling nervous. I KNOW these things. You ARE. No denying it! I can FEEL it!" Unfortunately, her Fi wasn't (and still isn't, and I'm 30 now) that well calibrated to my system, so she'd routinely tell me I was nervous when I was actually sick and that I was sick when I was actually nervous, and more. But she wouldn't let me have my emotional privacy. I, on the other hand, adore having the drop on people. I'll whisper to myself, "Ahh, you're saying one thing and doing something else. You're denying that you actually think X but I see you really do. That's fine, you must have a reason for that. But I totally have you figured out. Don't worry, it'll be my little secret."
    I don't always want to 'fight it out'. It's just that I need to grasp your mindset so I can read what you're saying - to use the right yard stick for the situation. It's like if I gauge you with Celsius but you're talking in Fahrenheit I'm gonna be way off in my assessments (which might have been the case with your mother). The other thing is I have a strong aversion to feeling like I'm being punished without a fair trial. If you have a problem with me, I want you to say it in open court, because then I can defend myself against the charges or I can find a way to change my behaviour to alleviate your unhappiness and avoid a trial altogether. I don't handle insinuations well - in fact I can be a bit of a dunce about it.

    As for insights, it's more complicated than just reading people like a book. Most people are pretty terrible at concealing their inner states, even INFJs , but the experience of the Fi insight is a bit like how INFJs can see something's off but haven't figured out what it is. I might sense the emotion strongly but it doesn't read in categories like "anger" or "insecurity". It tends to be more like: "pain", "uncertainty", "avoidance", "awkwardness" - stuff that's more interpretive. With you mum she might have read, "discomfort", combined it with observed external factors in your life, and then come to the incorrect conclusion of "nervousness". If you don't put the clues together correctly you can get it pretty wrong. That's more to do with poor Ne than Fi, I suppose. It doesn't help that sometimes we need to stab in the dark to check if we're on the right track (although a lot of wild and blind stabbing is, again, poor use of Ne). I will say, while I see INFJs as being as bad as others with hiding emotions, the source of your emotions can be more elusive to us, which can lead to incorrect readings. This requires a special sort of calibration for NFJs, perhaps.

    I think it's wonderful how INFJs can just come into someone's life, express an charismatic empathy, make gentle adjustments to their world and make them feel amazing. I don't want you to stop doing that. I just think that there's times when you can't use that approach. In tense situations and conflict (or when there's the strong potential of it eventuating) in particular, you need to be more direct with NFPs. Perhaps you need a special recalibration for us in return too.

    Why are these things elephants (suggesting they need to be talked about) instead of inconsistencies (suggesting they can just be)? Is it like PeaceBaby's crying baby metaphor, just too loud to be ignored? Not judging, just very curious.
    Well, there's almost always an incongruence between the inner and outer worlds. This happens for a variety of reasons: sometimes people try to disguise their weaknesses/flaws; sometimes people are uncomfortable with sharing a feeling and need to put on a smiling face to avoid potentially awkward questions; and sometimes people just lose sight of their true self. I'm more than OK with that - I get it. Normally I just pretend not to notice, skirt the issue or do something to help that person out.

    The problem comes when that inconsistency is leaving me at a crossroads as to what to do about it. Sometimes as you say, it can be that their inner state is screaming at me like that baby and I can't stand the silliness of the front. Can you imagine the mother smiling and chatting away as the baby cries hysterically? It just seems crazy. Beside the fact I'm struggling to even hear what she's saying over the cries. Another situation is when I sense there's problem between me and the other person. Conflict is scary to me, especially when people seem annoyed or dissatisfied with me and I don't know why. I referenced in an earlier post that I see a lot of capriciousness in my world, so I value clarity when things go wrong. I don't want to fuck things up with people and not be able to fix that.

    If, however, I feel like someone is playing games with my emotions it's another thing. With NFJs and conflict there can be both the concealment of the inner emotion as well as an active effort to instil a totally different emotion inside me, both directly and more obliquely. Those little emotional adjustments you make in others in this case are seen as a distortion. It's not hiding the emotions that's the problem, it's throwing out very skilled signals that seem like a deliberate effort to distract and obfuscate. If on top of this, you emphasise to me how honest you're being with me or how much you really want to clear up the issue, I think, "LIAR!" . So then the inconsistency becomes a sort of elephant itself. Then what do I do? I'm juggling 2 elephants and multiple levels of distortion, and I can't figure out which aspect to address, which to ignore, and which to call you out on.

    EDIT: I guess what I mean by the above paragraph is that I see all the cogs working away inside the machine when NFJs do that and I don't think you guys realise this. I imagine that you'd prefer people didn't see that part because it complicates and alters the intended outcome. So it's not great for either of us then.

    That's nothing. My parents practically almost got divorced over the choice of paving stones. They gave up on choosing curtains because they fought so much over it. 15 years on, the house still doesn't have any.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

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