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  1. #1601
    garbage
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    1600 posts and not one admin intervention...till now...
    That isn't true. At all. A quick search can verify that.
    INFJs have been called all kinds of shit in the thread...no intervention...why?
    [...]
    Because someone knows how to cry louder than us...becuase we are accountable and they are not...
    It's disingenuous to claim that you know, with full certainty, why we're here.

    Nobody in particular cried at all. We decided that an intervention was necessary.
    Because it is OK to disperage a group of people but not an individual...
    Yes, it is much more problematic when it's about an individual.
    Our disadvantage is that INFJs suck when it comes to playing the victim
    Hopefully, you're not attempting to disparage another group by contrast. Moreover, there was nobody playing victim and leading us here.
    Just please be more active in keeping a tight leash on this INFJ bashing thing from now on...when INFJs start sending you complaints when they feel they are being mistreated OK?

    Thank you...
    We're going to try to make sure that the thread is fair for everyone involved.

    One way to make the thread fair is to ensure that nobody can post in it, but we don't want to take the nuclear option. The other way is for everyone to take a step back.

    Also, whether or not one is able to disparage or insult others is not something that's up for discussion.

  2. #1602

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    Quote Originally Posted by garbage View Post
    That isn't true. At all. A quick search can verify that.

    It's disingenuous to claim that you know, with full certainty, why we're here.

    Nobody in particular cried at all. We decided that an intervention was necessary.

    Yes, it is much more problematic when it's about an individual.

    Hopefully, you're not attempting to disparage another group by contrast. Moreover, there was nobody playing victim and leading us here.

    We're going to try to make sure that the thread is fair for everyone involved.

    One way to make the thread fair is to ensure that nobody can post in it, but we don't want to take the nuclear option. The other way is for everyone to take a step back.

    Also, whether or not one is able to disparage or insult others is not something that's up for discussion.
    Does that mean cleanup the off-topic bashing?
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  3. #1603
    garbage
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    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post
    Does that mean cleanup the off-topic bashing?
    More than likely. In a thread like this where the deeply personal comes to the surface and is the topic of discussion, it's hard to separate 'discussion of ideas about people' from 'discussion of people' (groups, individuals, ...). This is fine, and natural, for the most part--but if the discussion of ideas goes sour, then so too becomes the discussion of people.

    So, it's much easier to prevent the future problematic stuff--to draw the line in the sand that sets the limit--than to clean up the existing stuff. We'll do our best, but the thread is pretty damn long, so.. .

    One of the goals of the site, and of typology, is to open a dialog where those of differing personalities can come together and hopefully come to understand one another. What we're asking is that the discussion reorient back toward that.

  4. #1604
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    I read that some of the INFJs as a group are feeling upset and attacked. Which ideas (not people, not posts, not direct quotations) are particularly upsetting? How accurate/inaccurate are those ideas? Clearly individual experiences differ, and we're all prone to over-generalizing from anecdotes and personal experiences. Is that kind of thing what's so upsetting, or are other dynamics going on here?

    I feel like earlier in the thread there were some interesting posts that seemed to contain some new insights (new to me, anyway). It seems a shame for the good get lost amongst personal attacks, mod interventions, etc.

  5. #1605
    Senior Member statuesquechica's Avatar
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    First of all, I would like to "go on the record" and say I hold no particular allegiance to any MBTI type. My allegiance is in respecting all types and pondering our similarities and differences because it is fascinating to reflect upon it. Yes, I test as an INFJ but we all know this is a personality theory, a possible way to bring order and understanding to how we function in this great, big world. The enneagram is another theory, along with Socionics, that I have also studied. Being a former science teacher I am always looking for patterns and systems of classification, but I also know there are outliers.

    I do enjoy (and I know there was great discussion about what that means on this thread) delving into people's experiences and how they solved a problem because I can always learn something of value from another person, no matter their type. I do not enjoy reading about assumptions being thrown far and wide (about a person's type, their intentions, their credibility, etc.) that do nothing but discourage a healthy environment for debate.

    Lastly, I find this thread fascinating in so many ways but I think one has to take a step back to truly appreciate what this thread demonstrated: we witnessed the title of this thread, "when an infj doorslams you/cuts you out of their life/breaks off contact" come to life right before our eyes.

    And to continue the conversation: I don't doorslam, I don't know how to abruptly end my connection with people I care about (perhaps part of being a 9?), which can be a good thing and a bad thing.
    I've looked at life from both sides now
    From up and down and still somehow
    It's life's illusions I recall
    I really don't know life at all

    Joni Mitchell

  6. #1606
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by statuesquechica View Post
    Lastly, I find this thread fascinating in so many ways but I think one has to take a step back to truly appreciate what this thread demonstrated: we witnessed the title of this thread, "when an infj doorslams you/cuts you out of their life/breaks off contact" come to life right before our eyes.
    Which is why I don't mind the insulting stuff said about me remaining in place. It's illustrative of the doorslam dynamic.

    And to continue the conversation: I don't doorslam, I don't know how to abruptly end my connection with people I care about (perhaps part of being a 9?), which can be a good thing and a bad thing.
    It's been suggested a few times to consider adding type + enneagram into the mix. That might yield some good discussion.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  7. #1607
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I had the same thought as Uumlau, though he beat me to posting. I have had the same disconnects with my INTP, where I am trying to be helpful in laying out my wants and preferences and inviting him to do the same, so we can come to some mutually satisfactory arrangement, but somehow it often just goes wrong. And the business about not trying to go through the "middle process" together is right on the money. We have learned to agree on our starting specifications, then go our separate ways to develop a solution, which we then come back and share together. Our different processes do indeed often produce quite similar outcomes.
    I'm really delighted to read this. I feel like this new (for me and my INFP) understanding of going our separate ways during the middle process is quite possibly a major qualitative breakthrough in our ability to move well together. Seeing that this pattern is also at work for you and your INTP clarifies my sense that this could really break us out of some ruts and logjams.

    I feel like at some level, I've worried that if we can't move well together through the middle process, then something is very wrong in our communication and interaction. The problem has been - we haven't been able to find a way fix that problem. It's felt impossible, and yet necessary, which has led me to have a "banging my head diligently against a wall" feeling in our ongoing efforts to try to make it work.

    It's just such a relief to me to consider that what we actually need to do is step away from the wall entirely and just give each other space during that middle process. And trust that our shared goals and different processes will most likely yield the solutions we need for whatever we're trying to accomplish. *deep relieved breath* This makes so much more sense than what we've tried to do before.

    And:


  8. #1608
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    I truly love that the discussion is at least partly turning toward approaching problematic dynamics in/around this thread as data on various topics, including the original one and its important corollaries. IMO there's lots and lots and LOTS of rich information here, and having streams of publicly unfolding dynamics in the record (so to speak) could be really useful in my view. Really really intelligent turn of the dialogue, IMO.

  9. #1609

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    Quote Originally Posted by statuesquechica View Post
    Lastly, I find this thread fascinating in so many ways but I think one has to take a step back to truly appreciate what this thread demonstrated: we witnessed the title of this thread, "when an infj doorslams you/cuts you out of their life/breaks off contact" come to life right before our eyes.
    How did it look from the outside basically in simple terms?

  10. #1610

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    I read that some of the INFJs as a group are feeling upset and attacked. Which ideas (not people, not posts, not direct quotations) are particularly upsetting? How accurate/inaccurate are those ideas? Clearly individual experiences differ, and we're all prone to over-generalizing from anecdotes and personal experiences. Is that kind of thing what's so upsetting, or are other dynamics going on here?

    I feel like earlier in the thread there were some interesting posts that seemed to contain some new insights (new to me, anyway). It seems a shame for the good get lost amongst personal attacks, mod interventions, etc.
    Here's what's been going wrong in this thread IMO (not necessarily a complete list):

    • Suggesting that INFJs doorslam therefore there's something "wrong" with them and expecting INFJs to prove that they are not "wrong"...thereby starting the dialogue on wrong foot/premises...rather then trying to identify what may have gone "wrong in the communication/relationship" and how to rectify it at both ends...using circular logic/self fulfilling logic to that end (like dismissing, on grounds of that INFJ "wrongness", clarification by INFJs why it might not be so or something else)... failure/reluctance to introspect...


    • Lack of critical thought and self-criticism...inability/reluctance to introspect and empathize whether one has also abruptly ended relationships in the past (either by drifting away or doorslam or by lashing out or by any other means) and to draw parallels between the two so as to introspect/extrapolate the source of the problem or the action...


    • Suggesting that INFJs should not rely on their main/dominant Ni perception (but the doorslammees') as it may be unreliable but failure/reluctance to draw parallels to one's main/dominant function in the process in terms of unreliability...Questioning INFJs' right/ability to decide for themselves about the relationship, particularly when one does not apply the same questioning to oneself first...


    • Deflecting questions or giving back vague answers to questions...justifying that by claiming INFJs are projecting or trying to move the discussion away from themselves...Lack of reciprocity, clarity and honest dialogue...


    • Lack of criticism (and even reinforcement) by other non-INJF posters to people displaying abovegiven characteristics...accusing INFJs of acting based on group dynamics when INFJs' perception regarding such people converge to a singularity and when INFJs criticize/question/cut contact with such people (which (the accusing thing) is ironically another group dynamic in itself)...

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