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  1. #1591
    Member March's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    See even we even disagree on how 'elephanty' the elephant is.

    While I feel like that happens a lot with INFJs (not a criticism, just a observation) in a variety of different ways in general, in this case I was mainly referring to the INFJs' emotional reaction to what PB was saying (eg. hurt, frustration, confusion, annoyance etc). I was trying to illustrate that you guys just work around problems, trying to fix them obliquely, even your own emotions, when sometimes all you have to say is "I feel X" or "I don't understand". Fi is very sensitive to elephants, so to speak, and can start reacting to the disconnect (between what you say/do vs what is going on in your inner world) rather than the actual content. This leads to a external response that might seem like a total emotional non-sequitur to you. Arguments ensue...
    Interesting.

    I wonder, why do you feel the need to 'fight it out' out loud? If your insight into other people's state of mind is superior (which it sure seems to be from your stories - this is not a dig in any way but a granting of 'you can obviously do things I can't') AND you tend to trust your Fi, why talk about it? You KNOW, right?

    I'm put in mind of arguments I used to have with my (INFP) mother. I'd be hiding how I felt, she'd be chasing after me going "But you're feeling nervous. I KNOW these things. You ARE. No denying it! I can FEEL it!" Unfortunately, her Fi wasn't (and still isn't, and I'm 30 now) that well calibrated to my system, so she'd routinely tell me I was nervous when I was actually sick and that I was sick when I was actually nervous, and more. But she wouldn't let me have my emotional privacy. I, on the other hand, adore having the drop on people. I'll whisper to myself, "Ahh, you're saying one thing and doing something else. You're denying that you actually think X but I see you really do. That's fine, you must have a reason for that. But I totally have you figured out. Don't worry, it'll be my little secret."

    Why are these things elephants (suggesting they need to be talked about) instead of inconsistencies (suggesting they can just be)? Is it like PeaceBaby's crying baby metaphor, just too loud to be ignored? Not judging, just very curious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Hmm. I don't know if this is the same thing. This seems like just changing your mind, which is perhaps different?

    But maybe it's just that the internal process is not what I expected, and seems incongruent with what I see externally. Did the about-face really piss off or confuse your husband when you did it? I mean, in the way you explained it to him, did he grasp your thought-process and understand why you would change your mind, or did he react negatively immediately?
    Yup, it really pissed him off. I didn't actually change my mind, I went from "Yeah, let's look outside of the city!" to "Yeah, let's look outside of the city within a certain distance from it!" I even gave him a heads-up that I wasn't feeling that gung-ho about the idea, warning him that a modification might be imminent. And I left a wide enough circle that it encompasses at least a couple of hundred potential houses.

    In response, I got things like "You're trying to control me and prevent me from even looking! I need FREEEEEDOM!" (Like I would even be able to stop him from looking - I'm not going to install 'don't display houses further out than 30 km from this location, and then only in villages with a train station' software on all of his devices. Go look all you want, mister.)

    When quizzed upon it, he of course said that we were going to choose together and that we weren't going to move unless we both wanted to, and that we were going to take into account each other's irrational preferences like "I just don't like the look of this thing" (which he has a LOT of too) and that it was even okay to set preferences in advance, like "I want a house with at least 3 bedrooms and large windows", even if that limited the number of houses we could consider. All very reasonable.

    But when I reiterated "Okay, and one of my preferences-in-advance is the distance" he went spare again. After a lot of touching base, we finally figured out that he needed to understand that 'not too far' meant 'maximum 20 minute bus/train/tram ride into the city', but even now he knows that he needs me to say those exact words instead of 'not too far' or 'within the range we came up with,' or it triggers his 'stop trying to control me!' mode. Even though he KNOWS they're the same.

    Edited to add: And when I tried to tell him WHY (I'm more dependent for my mental well-being on my friends than you are so they're going to weigh more heavily in my calculations, I don't have a car to use during the day because you take our car to work AND I don't feel comfortable getting a second car, I want to be able to get there and back while spending enough time with them), he instinctively tried to downplay either the importance of my friends (Ah, but you'll be fine without them!) or the travel period (Ah, but you even if you have to travel an hour and a half both ways you can still get the same enjoyment out of an evening with them as you do now, having to travel 20 minutes!). "It's wrong to decide on such an important thing by taking other people into account! They're not promising YOU that they're going to stay around, are they?" Bloody Te. Defining the problem out of existence is also a way of solving it. But he knows that won't fly.

    I'd say it was interesting if it weren't so frustrating.

  2. #1592
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Fi dom/aux, perhaps, but with Te dom/aux (Fi tert/inf) it is quite a different story. Same with that desire to avoid being uncomfortable. Anyone can understand on some theoretical level that growth is change, and often even comes out of confict, all of which can be quite uncomfortable. Some types have an easier time, however, engaging the process willingly and productively. Not sure if this is more T vs. F, or Je vs. Ji.
    I generalized too much! Yes, what I wrote was more applicable to F types.

    But some of it still applies. In the case of INTJs, what I've seen here on the forum, from my pov, is that they aren't afraid of the discomfort, either their own or what they might cause in others, but they don't organize or speak up much in support of each other when one has a cause. It's a lone voice in the wilderness, which usually ends up being labeled as "crazy INTJ". (And set upon by a flock of Fe-using INTPs!)

    Part of what I was trying to say, and did that badly, is that when Fi does try to foster change, it tends to end up being a lone voice, unless it can get some Fe support--as far as I see it. And getting Fe support can prove to be difficult because of the communication difficulties and differing thought processes.


    ETA: Always the possibility that the pattern I see is, ultimately, not a pattern.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  3. #1593
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    I realize that you requested that I refrain from any discussion with you, but this is such a blatant attempt at public shaming and denigration that I have to comment. If you felt that you had to have this conversation with @Southern Kross, you should have taken it private, rather than denigrate a third party indirectly in the public forum in what looks to be an attempt to gain support for your own feelings about @PeaceBaby. Fine, you don't like her. Why do you feel the need to make sure that others see that and agree with you? Why didn't you simply tell her, like you told me, that you no longer wish to discuss anything with her and leave it at that?

    This is a public thread. PeaceBaby is allowed to post in it. If any of the INFJs in this thread don't want to interact with her, they don't have to. But just because you don't want to, doesn't mean that others have to follow your lead.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  4. #1594
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    So I'm going to be really blunt here. PB initially hooked me in by "speaking Ti" in a way that piqued my curiosity. With even a bit of observation of that practice, it seemed to me that PB is quite smart and learns how to "speak" various cognitive and feeling-tone languages that will appeal to whoever she is trying to - to use the most polite possible word I can think of here - affect. Like .... there are trigger tones and words and approaches that appeal to various possible audiences. In my case, it was that Ti-like approach, and that approach left room for my partner to not-identify with PB at that point.

    So here's the really really blunt part: I do wonder if in other parts of her communication, PB was somehow able to "speak" in trigger tones (or something like that) that somehow pulled you into that strong identification with her that you describe. Is that possible? I really hope this isn't too much bluntness here. I could be wrong but this really struck me and has been hanging in the back of my head for a little while now.
    Guilty until proven innocent eh? A familiar credo.

    How about instead, PeaceBaby thinks in a lot of different ways. Or PeaceBaby stretches her mind to try to approach problems from a variety of cognitive angles? Or PeaceBaby is kind enough to try to speak various cognitive languages so that she can more clearly convey her ideas and connect to a wide variety of people? Or that PeaceBaby takes time to try to foster communication with people no matter what cognitive language they speak? Or even when they are not kind to her? That the origin place of that effort is one of deep caring rather than what's being suggested here, one of evil manipulation?

    Your post is the poisoned pen. What you're doing here is gaslighting this thread and fomenting dissension against me as an individual. Maybe you're not familiar with being on forums, and I understand that you want to explore this. But this type of torch-burning activity violates the forum rules, but more importantly, the rules of just simply treating another human being as a human being.

    I'll respond to any questions you have, but if you cannot speak to me directly, then please stop referencing me in the third person and planting seeds of dissent. I've tolerated your behaviour, which I might add is indicative of ignored or poorly developed Fe, for some time. I am drawing the line here.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  5. #1595

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    Typology Rule #12654: if someone's words/demeanor/reasoning challenges accepted stereotypes, thwarting one's argument and potentially causing major upheaval to one's inner world, simple rule it as a mistyped nutcase in denial.


    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  6. #1596
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    Quote Originally Posted by garbage View Post
    I gotta say, this thread got a bunch of *cough* flags waved up all in our faces. Part of the mods' job is to peer around at the context behind the attention. Reading through, though, I can't make heads or tails of this one. Roger Rabbit smashing plates over his head for 10 minutes is a close approximation for what I'm seeing.

    Regardless of what I do or don't think, though, y'all should know that we're gonna have to keep a bit of an eye out on this thread.
    Hey, everyone! The mods are still here. And we all pretty much agree that this thread is currently problematic.

    I can't be assed to see who all this applies to, since the thread's all spaghetti, but... *ahem*.

    Stop making this thread all about one particular member.

    You probably don't want us to come and pee in the sandbox and ruin it for everyone involved, but I gotta say that our bladders are very much itching at this point.

    Use discretion. Choose words carefully. And so on.

    Thanks.

  7. #1597
    Senior Member Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by March View Post

    Why are these things elephants (suggesting they need to be talked about) instead of inconsistencies (suggesting they can just be)? Is it like PeaceBaby's crying baby metaphor, just too loud to be ignored? Not judging, just very curious.
    I suspect this is exactly what they've been trying to say about the INFJ "sticking points". Fi and Ni have significantly different unconscious priorities. It's kind of like asking, "Why can't you ignore the thing you inherently consider a priority, for just a moment, to hear what I'm telling you is my priority?" [And actually, I wouldn't respond badly to that....I think what I respond badly to is when Fi sounds more like "Why can't you ignore the thing you inherently consider a priority, for just a moment, to hear The Ultimate Truthiest Priority I'm trying to share with you.....so that then we might both enjoy the CORRECT priority?"]

    At any rate, this 'elephant in the room' business goes both ways. [Just because I realize that doesn't mean I think it's worth it to do the work of ignoring my own elephant for any ol' body....which is one way I actually think Ni is more about 'the individual' than Fi, and may even be one of the reasons this thread exists in the first place (because an INFJ may be aware their own elephant is getting in the way of getting along with another person, but the elephant wins).]
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  8. #1598

    Default Fi-dom versus Fi-aux

    I've been thinking about Fi after making the distinction between Fe-dom and Fe-aux...

    So what may be the difference between Fi-dom and Fi-aux...?

    Here's my primitive take on it (by Fi-dom, Fe-dom etc..I mean the attitude/mentality behind the function):

    Se-Fi -> propels the owner to seek out physical thrills in physical (bodily) environment that will make the owner feel good (about herself/himself)?

    Ne-Fi -> propels the owner to seek out (mental) options/perspectives/alternatives that will make the owner feel good (about herself/himself)?

    Is Fi-dom rather about staying true to one's values so that one may feel good about herself/himself (in his/her actions) whereas Fi-aux is about finding ways to make one feel good about himself/herself just for the sake of feeling good?

    So Fi-aux is a means/tool to an end (feeling good) whereas Fi-dom is itself an end/goal (of being self) in itself...?

    So Fi-dom = I feel X therefore I'll act Y...?

    whereas Fi-aux = I act Y so that I'll feel X...?

    So Fi-dom actually does not have a (direct) conflict with Fe-aux...?

    Can it be that Fi-dom is more self-aware (related to ego) whereas Fi-aux is more instinctive/primal (related to id)...?

    Does Fi-dom have any direct conflict with Fe-dom?

    I've always found Fi to be self centered...but now I am inclined to think I was have rather been irritated by unhealthy/hedonistic versions of Fi-aux...

    Just some assumptions and food for thought...

  9. #1599

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    Quote Originally Posted by garbage View Post
    1600 posts and not one admin intervention...till now...

    INFJs have been called all kinds of shit in the thread...no intervention...why?

    Because INFJs have just opted to defend their position, views and thoughts...we've held ourselves accountable to respond back...They've questioned our sanity, our ability to make decisions on our own...as if we were insane/disabled somehow...no intervention...

    What happens when we've held others accountable to explaining where they are coming from? When we've questioned their sanity and ability to come to conclusions?...Intervention...Why?

    Because someone knows how to cry louder than us...becuase we are accountable and they are not...

    Because it is OK to disperage a group of people but not an individual...

    Our disadvantage is that INFJs suck when it comes to playing the victim...well until now...at least...

    I can understand you feeling the need to show your presence in the thread...fine...

    Just please be more active in keeping a tight leash on this INFJ bashing thing from now on...when INFJs start sending you complaints when they feel they are being mistreated OK?

    Thank you...

  10. #1600

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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    1600 posts and not one admin intervention...till now...

    INFJs have been called all kinds of shit in the thread...no intervention...why?

    Because INFJs have just opted to defend their position, views and thoughts...we've held ourselves accountable to respond back...They've questioned our sanity, our ability to make decisions on our own...as if we were insane/disabled somehow...no intervention...

    What happens when we've held others accountable to explaining where they are coming from? When we've questioned their sanity and ability to come to conclusions?...Intervention...Why?

    Because someone knows how to cry louder than us...becuase we are accountable and they are not...

    Because it is OK to disperage a group of people but not an individual...

    Our disadvantage is that INFJs suck when it comes to playing the victim...well until now...at least...

    I can understand you feeling the need to show your presence in the thread...fine...

    Just please be more active in keeping a tight leash on this INFJ bashing thing from now on...when INFJs start sending you complaints when they feel they are being mistreated OK?

    Thank you...
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

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