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Thread: When an INFJ doorslams you / cuts you out of their life / breaks off contact

  1. #1571
    Vulnerability Array Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    About the thread:

    The thread's suddenly become much more crowded...At the risk of sounding paranoid, why did you (relatively at this specific moment) newcomers opted to participate all of a sudden at this exact (pivotal?) moment? This doesn't mean you shouldn't have...just curious why now? And were you silently observing the discussion all along or were you alerted to something somehow?

    If it felt to you like we were ganging up on @PeaceBaby and you felt for whatever reason a need to rush to her rescue and support, please really do contemplate whether you may inadvertantly be enabling her and preventing her from confronting her hurt by acting as proxies...
    Here's some Ti from me, yeghor. And I've been thinking that maybe it would be more productive for INFJs to use their Ti primarily to analyze and label the group dynamic, rather than applying that to individuals. Perhaps Fe would work better when applied to the individual. Look at the group impersonally and the individuals within that group personally? Just a thought. Nothing to back it up at the moment.

    You want to know why all of these people suddenly joined the thread? First, if you notice at the bottom of the thread, it will say who's viewing the thread at any given moment, so, yes, a lot of people have been reading and not participating. This has been a popular thread. Second, you need to take a step back and look at what's been happening recently through a longer lens. You're too up-close and personal right now. Look at the general group dynamic information that's available (after you read some of the descriptions in the link, do you see them happening in this thread?)

    I'll tell you what I see. I see how Fe controls the group dynamic because that's what Fe is about--group dynamics. From what I understand, Fi, on the other hand, is NOT about the group at all. If you notice, most of the Fi people who have posted in the thread tend to not take sides. Their posts are either trying hard to stay as neutral as possible, or have reluctantly decided to speak to one side or the other, knowing that there are consequences for speaking up that might not align with their personal values. And a few, like PeaceBaby, have taken a firmer stance on what they see. When Fi speaks out, it's about the individual values and has little to do with the group. They aren't wired for group dynamics, but they've had to deal with them all of their lives the best they could. So, you can't see Fi as taking sides, the way Fe naturally does. The ones who have spoken out have most likely been pushed by extreme circumstances, combined with their personal values, to speak out and pick a side.

    Fe on the other hand, is all about sides. We categorize. Things are this or that. Black or white. Very few grays. We poll and come to conclusions based on majority or what appears to be majority and try to work towards a smooth running system. What I see happening in the broader scope with Fe posts is that the comfortable norm was challenged. In order to get back to the more harmonious norm, there was some soft pushback. When that didn't work, there was some harder pushback. Once the pushback went beyond a certain point of social acceptance into subtle and outright personal attack, bystanders were pushed into commenting and taking sides, so that a comfortable, smooth running system might be reached again. If you notice, most of the posts that directly take a side are Fe. Those who were uncomfortable with the conflict, but didn't want to participate in it, made fluff or indirect posts to try to diffuse some of the emotion. And a few Fe posters have also tried to bring back a more diplomatic tone in order to move the conversation forward.

    Unfortunately, I think change comes with the price of being uncomfortable. Everyone seems to agree that the norm (INFP/INFJ communication) isn't working in some way. It's at an impasse. Slow, steady, diplomatic change is possible, but like rain wearing down a mountain, it might take so much time that it might not be practical. So, perhaps an earthquake is needed in order to bring some of the hidden strata to light and foster change. Not a very pleasant idea, an earthquake. Most people, whether Fe or Fi, won't want to start one because the consequences can be devastating. So, people tend to not speak up against the status quo, even if they don't agree with it. Hopefully, a lesser degree of shaking up will suffice to move what wants to stay in place. But until enough people are uncomfortable enough with the norm to act, the norm is what we'll be stuck with. Because Fe wants a smooth running system, whether that system is optimal or not. And Fi might not like the system they're stuck in, but they don't tend towards organizing into groups, and they have so little power against the group as individuals, that they end up bending or breaking.

    Are people doing all of this consciously? No. I don't think so. I think, for the most part, people are reacting out of their unconscious and subconscious and then providing some sort of rationalization in order to explain.

    And maybe all of this will also address part of March's post, too:
    Quote Originally Posted by March View Post
    I also agree with @fidelia's assessment that I like to get to a kind of common ground, or maybe common cause, before going into explaining differences. First I want to be sure that rhetorical-you and I are on the same team, striving for the same thing, and THEN I'm going to share the details about what that looks like for me. Doesn't mean we're not still on the same team! We are. Just that it now seems relevant for me to share differences. If we're not even going to get on the same team, what's the point in sharing all that detail? You're not committed to me so why would you even consider bending my way? Whereas if we're on a team, it's useful for us to share what exquisite collaboration would look like, so we can get there even if talking about it sheds light on a couple of hurdles we hadn't seen before.

    Of course I know that other people don't work like that, but it's still the most balanced-feeling assumption for me when dealing with a new person. People I've known longer I can adapt to - I know my husband, f'rex, doesn't care about differences as much as I do so I can just tell him what I need without telling him WHY and he'll give it to me even though he doesn't understand. And over the years I've learned to keep an eye out for when my 'natural' approach doesn't work, and shift to an 'adopted' approach.
    From what I gather, it's not that Fi doesn't prefer to be on a team, it's that the whole concept of being on a team, in the way you're talking about it, is kind of foreign to them.
    Johari / Nohari

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    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  2. #1572
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    From what I gather, it's not that Fi doesn't prefer to be on a team, it's that the whole concept of being on a team, in the way you're talking about it, is kind of foreign to them.
    Yup.

    But the concept of 'team' is useful in explaining the INFJ behaviours that INFPs classify as 'backtracking' or 'turning on me'. My offering was designed to illustrate what's going on inside of the INFJ. I hope it serves two purposes.

    First, for INFJs to see if that dynamic rings a bell in them, to understand how this may be misinterpreted, and to figure out that it might be a great idea to be more clear about what's happening in them. Not that I have any idea how to say that in a way that helps INFPs or other types.

    Therefore, second, for INFPs to learn that this dynamic is a thing in INFJs. They don't have to like it or enjoy it or adopt it, but it's a thing and more information about reality is always good, right? Maybe knowing this can help INFPs who feel attacked take a deep breath before fully committing to that interpretation and say 'Dude, you're suddenly being critical and argumentative. Is that because you now feel comfortable enough that we want the same thing to nitpick about disagreements?' And if that's not going to happen, maybe an INFP here might comment on how INFJs can best discuss their intermittent need to talk strategy so they least trigger the INFP to feel ambushed.

    So this is a serious question, INFPs: considering that it might be hard to impossible for INFJs to not bring up disagreements if they arise after a certain period of harmony (and granting that INFJs should to their damnedest to try to match pace with INFPs in disagreeing early), how can we best introduce the need to spell out a disagreement without making you feel tricked?

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    Senior Member Array yeghor's Avatar
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    I made some corrections in blue...

    And the bolded parts are incorrect from my perspective...

    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    Here's some Ti Fe-dom and Ne from me, yeghor. And I've been thinking that maybe it would be more productive for INFJs to use their Ti primarily to analyze and label the group dynamic, rather than applying that to individuals. Perhaps Fe would work better when applied to the individual. Look at the group impersonally and the individuals within that group personally? Just a thought. Nothing to back it up at the moment.

    You want to know why all of these people suddenly joined the thread? First, if you notice at the bottom of the thread, it will say who's viewing the thread at any given moment, so, yes, a lot of people have been reading and not participating. This has been a popular thread. Second, you need to take a step back and look at what's been happening recently through a longer lens. You're too up-close and personal right now. Look at the general group dynamic information that's available (after you read some of the descriptions in the link, do you see them happening in this thread?)

    I'll tell you what I see. I see how Fe-dom controls the group dynamic because that's what Fe-dom is about--group dynamics. From what I understand, Fi, on the other hand, is NOT about the group at all. If you notice, most of the Fi people who have posted in the thread tend to not take sides. Their posts are either trying hard to stay as neutral as possible, or have reluctantly decided to speak to one side or the other, knowing that there are consequences for speaking up that might not align with their personal values. And a few, like PeaceBaby, have taken a firmer stance on what they see. When Fi speaks out, it's about the individual values and has little to do with the group. They aren't wired for group dynamics, but they've had to deal with them all of their lives the best they could. So, you can't see Fi as taking sides, (No, Fi can also converge on common values) the way Fe naturally does. The ones who have spoken out have most likely been pushed by extreme circumstances, combined with their personal values, to speak out and pick a side. (You are portraying Fi-dom as oppressed people...who deserve some kind of privileged treatment...positive discrimination...why?...Becase the society they live in is Fe-dominant? You've been sounding "apologetic" to me all along...It feels like white man apologizing to black people even after several generations...I am sure there's a concept for this but I do not know the exact word...)

    Fe-dom on the other hand, is all about sides. We categorize. Things are this or that. Black or white. Very few grays. We Fe-dom poll and come to conclusions based on majority or what appears to be majority and try to work towards a smooth running system. What I see happening in the broader scope with Fe posts is that the comfortable norm was challenged. In order to get back to the more harmonious norm, there was some soft pushback. When that didn't work, there was some harder pushback. Once the pushback went beyond a certain point of social acceptance into subtle and outright personal attack, bystanders were pushed into commenting and taking sides, so that a comfortable, smooth running system might be reached again. (No it wasn't about Fe (converging), it was about Ni (converging)) If you notice, most of the posts that directly take a side are Fe. Those who were uncomfortable with the conflict, but didn't want to participate in it, made fluff or indirect posts to try to diffuse some of the emotion. And a few Fe posters have also tried to bring back a more diplomatic tone in order to move the conversation forward.

    Unfortunately, I think change comes with the price of being uncomfortable. Everyone seems to agree that the norm (INFP/INFJ communication) isn'tworking in some way. It's at an impasse. Slow, steady, diplomatic change is possible, but like rain wearing down a mountain, it might take so much time that it might not be practical. So, perhaps an earthquake is needed in order to bring some of the hidden strata to light and foster change. Not a very pleasant idea, an earthquake. Most people, whether Fe or Fi, won't want to start one because the consequences can be devastating. So, people tend to not speak up against the status quo (which favors the INFJs? the elite?), even if they don't agree with it. Hopefully, a lesser degree of shaking up will suffice to move what wants to stay in place. But until enough people are uncomfortable enough with the norm to act (are you thru Fe-dom (i.e. group dynamic) provoking/rallying people to rebel against or bully INFJs?), the norm is what we'll be stuck with. Because Fe-dom wants a smooth running system, whether that system is optimal or not. And Fi might not like the system they're stuck in, but they eta: don't tend towards organizing into groups, and they have so little power against the group as individuals, that they end up bending or breaking.

    Are people doing all of this consciously? No. I don't think so. I think, for the most part, people are reacting out of their unconscious and subconscious and then providing some sort of rationalization in order to explain.
    Last edited by yeghor; 02-04-2014 at 04:52 PM. Reason: Red added

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    Vulnerability Array Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by March View Post
    Yup.

    But the concept of 'team' is useful in explaining the INFJ behaviours that INFPs classify as 'backtracking' or 'turning on me'. My offering was designed to illustrate what's going on inside of the INFJ. I hope it serves two purposes.

    First, for INFJs to see if that dynamic rings a bell in them, to understand how this may be misinterpreted, and to figure out that it might be a great idea to be more clear about what's happening in them. Not that I have any idea how to say that in a way that helps INFPs or other types.

    Therefore, second, for INFPs to learn that this dynamic is a thing in INFJs. They don't have to like it or enjoy it or adopt it, but it's a thing and more information about reality is always good, right? Maybe knowing this can help INFPs who feel attacked take a deep breath before fully committing to that interpretation and say 'Dude, you're suddenly being critical and argumentative. Is that because you now feel comfortable enough that we want the same thing to nitpick about disagreements?' And if that's not going to happen, maybe an INFP here might comment on how INFJs can best discuss their intermittent need to talk strategy so they least trigger the INFP to feel ambushed.
    Got it now. I took the part I quoted out of context. Sorry about that.
    Johari / Nohari

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    Senior Member Array yeghor's Avatar
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    Here's the difference between Fe-dom and Fe-aux IMO:

    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Originally Posted by badger055

    Don't let the stereotypes influence you. Hitler was INFJ...
    I sometimes can see how I have the potential to turn into an authoritarian person and dictate/impose my own version of ideal society on people but I (and other INFJs I believe) do not have that much presence as well as desire/drive to be at the centre of attention and at the driver's seat for as long as Hitler did...INFJs are much more passive/subtle in their influence...I do not want to control/manipulate people to adapt my ideals, I want them to adapt my ideals because "they" themselves desire to to do so on their own...because the former is insustainable in my absence and the latter is independent of me...will sustain itself even when I am long gone...

    I believe Hitler may infact be an unhealthy/troubled ENFJ...who thought he was doing what's best for his (ideal of) German people...not that I condone his actions...

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    Just a thought ...

    We might want to differentiate the Enneagram motivations from the cognitive functions' perceptions of things.

    If you want to know WHY someone is reacting in a particular way (good or bad), Enneagram helps to explain where that person is coming from and what they're specifically reacting to. Cognitive functions really only determine how well they can explain it to others. Ni tends to be a pain in the butt to explain, so few INFJs will spend the time to explain their reactions, especially when the reaction is to avoid the person in question, hence "doorslam".
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by March View Post
    If I have a complaint, I'll undersell the problem and focus on the solution (so we can jump right into the resolution and I don't have to ask people to consider my emotions, which was usually the sticking point), and if other people have complaints, I'll ask them what they want and stop trying random things that usually turn out not to be what they want anyway. Tadaa!"
    Thanks for this. I realized my post might come across as skeptical of fidelia's point. I thought that, since she brought it up, it must happen some or even most of the time. I just wanted to check other folks because I don't have enough sources. I wasn't sure if I could extrapolate from it since I didn't know if it was particular to fidelia or if it was broader. Hearing one of the reasons for preferring this mode of conversation is great because now it's easier to understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Lots to think about here. I nearly have a response for you @Ghost, but still need to work a couple of questions out in my own head.
    Hey, it's fine. I've seen the time and effort you put into this thread. After I made my post, I realized I was asking a lot. Take your time. I'm glad to get responses at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by March View Post
    So this is a serious question, INFPs: considering that it might be hard to impossible for INFJs to not bring up disagreements if they arise after a certain period of harmony (and granting that INFJs should to their damnedest to try to match pace with INFPs in disagreeing early), how can we best introduce the need to spell out a disagreement without making you feel tricked?
    Hm. If I was told something along the lines of "Now that we know each other better, I trust you and feel safe to discuss X with you," I'd feel like it was...dishonorable not to listen and take seriously. I guess something that tells me the relationship is fine and that the disagreement, in your eyes, doesn't put distance between us.

    If that doesn't feel natural, maybe ensuring that you're only speaking from your point of view and then telling me why it matters to you. Being told "these are the facts" and not being told why you want this solution puts me off.

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    Vulnerability Array Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    I made some corrections in blue...

    And the bolded parts are incorrect from my perspective...
    Not in the mood to have to copy and paste, since my quote doesn't re-quote.

    You misunderstand my motives. I am not trying to rally or provoke. I'm simply trying to show that, from my altered pov, the INFJ pov can come across very differently than it supposes it does. The Fe-aux interpretation of things isn't the only interpretation there is. You're reading too much into that post. Step back from it and look at it in a more general, impersonal way.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I think @Ginkgo, you may be on to something with the silence of non-communication thing. Definitely there is text buried in what is not said, or the non-interaction that happens, as well as what does happen. (Maybe a Fe thing?).

    Having said that, I also know that the more complicated or detailed or important a thought I want to get across, the more perfectionistic I get about it, and then discouraged about doing it justice and then a bunch of time elapses, but to the other party, it may look like I'm intentionally avoiding the subject when it's just that it's so important, that I don't want to trivialize it (but then do by not responding). I also sometimes like a person well enough or am out of emotional juice enough that I take a long time to respond to someone via writing, even though I very much want to remain in touch with them. So I can imagine that interpreting the non-communication could get tricky.
    There's definitely that. I think, for the party that's interpreting the non-communication, the most productive option, regardless of the outcome, is to use some emotional intelligence and recognize that it would be ideal not to impose expectations on the other party (even expectations that the other party ought to be able to digest what you're talking about). If expectations for a response aren't met, it would lead to disappointment, and, at best, more misunderstandings. Maybe this method sounds extraordinarily zen, but it's likely just as perfectionistic as your desire to articulate a response. ~5 years ago, I became a member here, coming with the intent to bridge gaps in understanding between people of various types. Since then, I've realized that context holds far more weight than syntax, regardless of your type. Lapses become self-evident through the cognitive dissonance suffered due to misunderstanding. If communication lapses occur, then it's probably best to just chill and recognize that the act of serving as a mediator or a translator can easily be prompted by a blinding, deafening sort of selfishness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    I recognize the mechanics you've illustrated here in many of my past-present interactions with INFJs - even that residual "sticky" feeling that exists because, while your logic might be mutual, communication as a whole (consisting of subconscious implications, gut feelings, and psychological muscle-memory) fails.
    That makes sense re: why it's sticky. And in that (or expanding on that) ... in my case, feeling that way about someone I love so deeply adds an additional layer for me. Best I can describe it initially is: a clash between love/deep connection and this experience of "opposed positioning" - which is different from simple disagreement. For me, it's like being in some sort of weird reality where the physics of connection don't quite make sense to me. That can disorient me to some extent and makes it harder for me to get out of the sticky as quickly as I would like to.

    My point is that even in that space between you and your INFP, I believe you can lend each other tools of understanding to further your shared goals. Do you ever feel like that's happened?
    I really don't know. Our experience so far has been that understanding differences in our cognitive processes has helped us understand, and increasingly to resolve, tensions in our relationship that seemed to come out of nowhere for no reason when we didn't know it was about differences in cognitive processes. We've discussed the possibility that these differences may be used as strengths, but so far that hasn't revealed itself as a pattern that I'm aware of.

    Of course, we do have areas of our lives in which we work extremely extremely well together. The most obvious is creative work. We work really well together on shared creative projects. We have different and complementary skills, a great mutual process in which disagreement can happen and is just fine, we flow together and naturally each bring our strengths, and what we create is better for all of it. But interestingly enough when it comes to the business aspect (what to do in the world with the products of our creative flow), we don't work well together at all and that weird tension comes up again.

    A tangential thought from our conversation, but one directly pertaining to the general topic - there is something to be learned in the silence of non-communication, through introspection. I believe INFJs excel in this regard, and I think it's possible they may, at times, expect others to do the same in the case that they've severed their ties. Does that ring true to you?
    Not for me. In my case, when I step away from a person or group, I have zero expectations of them. I mean zero. I don't do it to affect their behavior or learning or anything like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I note the same kinds of conflicts between INTPs and INTJs. We agree, but we disagree as to what the "best proof" is. I can only imagine how this translates to the INFJ/INFP conflict: you agree, but, um, well, there's something seriously wrong about the other person's perspective ... and in Feeling-land, that can turn into a suspicion that the other person's values are somehow corrupt. (Just as I read INTPs continually insinuating that INTJ reasoning is corrupt, and vice versa.)
    Interesting. Never thought about it exactly this way. One additional wrinkle, IMO, is that F is the dom process for one (INFP - Fi) and the aux process for the other (INFJ - Fe). Same with INTP/INTJ and Ti/Te. I mention this because I continue to suspect that the differences in dominant processes is important as well - meaning introverted perceiving versus introverted judging.

    The only thing I can think of to ameliorate that is to realize that such suspicions are egotistical, that somehow you yourself know the "right way" to consider things, and that there are no other valid paths.
    For me in particular, the biggest challenge is not defaulting inside myself to her way as the "right way" and becoming opposed to myself in the process. That's how Fe-aux works in me, it creates a struggle between her Fi and my organic perception - basically setting up a situation in which I am at odds with myself. In other words, while my organic perception (Ni or Ni-Se) feels like home to me as a way to perceive and move, Fe-aux orients me to her Fi as if it is by initial default legitimate.

    So my struggle is the internal clash it raises in me. I internalize her Fi view even though it doesn't make sense to me, and I double stream it and my Ni/Ni-Se perception inside myself, part of me seeing myself as "other" and "wrong by default" in that initial process. Which then later on raises a need for to Ti-tert to come in with guns blazing to try to correct for the damage that initial move causes in me.)

    I suspect that Te-aux doesn't work that way. But does any of that seem familiar to you at all?

    It's just different "operating systems", if you will. Both Linux and Windows can be used to accomplish exactly the same tasks, but a Linux user is always going to feel uncomfortable with Windows, and vice versa. And I don't choose the "operating systems" analogy lightly: these are distinct cognitive differences between people.
    I love this metaphor! Thank you.

    I'm trying to figure out how it would apply to my experience described just above with Fe-aux and double streaming. Maybe it's like because of Fe-aux, I keep trying to run programs made for from her system on my own operating system?

    (tangent that is possibly but maybe not moving outside of the metaphor: in the actual world of tech, I want want WANT to try Linux. Have been wanting this for years, but haven't have the time. I only learned Windows because it's so prevalent and it was just there a lot more than Linux)

    Once you note that the other way of thinking is valid, THEN you can develop an attitude of learning from it. INTPs always see things that I don't, and I see things they don't, and in a team, we're nigh unstoppable as long as we leverage each other's understanding. You just need to stay away from the tendency to insinuate that there is something wro-o-o-ong (oh so very wrong!) with the other person's reasoning/values. It's just unfamiliar, not wrong.
    It's actually been quite a revelation to us both that this "weird stuff" about me - manifestation of my cognitive processes - is not specific only to me. I think at some unfortunately significant levels, we both tended to assume that her ways of processing things are more valid/legitimate/representative of humanity as a whole than mine, when our different processes clashed (a situation due to the dynamic I described above with Fe-aux in me).

    And it's not something you can gain much familiarity, because you'd have to stop thinking your normal paths in order to think in the other person's paths.
    Yes! And in our case I think we are finally finally getting this! We simply can't think in each other's paths - and that is completely okay. We don't have to do that in order to be together and love each other and move well together in life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    This is an excellent point (well, a couple excellent points crammed together).

    This thread very much has the feel of explaining to INFJs how they should want to be different in a heavy-handed way.
    I see this as well.

    IMO Fe-aux can cause real problems in situations like this. I suspect it's because at some level we (INFJs) can feel obligated to consider it quite deeply (that we should want to be different) ... even when we're also setting and articulating boundaries. In fact, in this context, INFJs setting and articulating boundaries is itself positioned as wrong and controlling behavior.

    This thread is like having that clerk follow you out of the store, follow you everywhere you go for the rest of the day and maybe even have them continue talking at you while you’re trying to fall asleep.
    *nods* and given what I wrote above, I would add the clerk's talking at you includes admonishment that you walking away is due to something wrong with you that needs to change.

    I also want to say this: This dynamic generally does NOT happen in my interactions with my INFP partner. In fact, she tends to want to drop things well before I do (Fe-aux + Ti-tert, in my case, most likely, though that's just a guess).

    Quote Originally Posted by March View Post
    Therefore, second, for INFPs to learn that this dynamic is a thing in INFJs. They don't have to like it or enjoy it or adopt it, but it's a thing and more information about reality is always good, right?
    In my case, this applies to various aspects of my cognitive processes and their manifestation in interaction with my partner.

    For me, getting centered and clear enough to stand firm in: "This is how I am, its difference from you doesn't mean there's something wrong with how I am, it's just difference, and we're going to need to learn to work with it" is really crucial since I've been so pulled by Fe-aux to initially try to adapt to her perspective and ways.

    I'm very fortunate that since we found this conceptual language (INFP/INFJ and cognitive processes), it has come increasingly clear to us both my processing "weirdness" isn't specific to me alone, but is actually related to this cognitive stack that exists in other human beings as well. With that step, my INFP tends to be quite supportive when I can get centered enough to stand my ground and say "This is how I am" while reminding myself internally that "how I am" is not a deviation from how I should be given her cognitive processes as an invisible norm.

    I've found that my INFP partner seems to naturally recognize difference as difference rather than "this is superior/this is inferior" due to her commitment to each individual being as well and centered as possible. We just needed a way to get at that, and for us the MBTI/cognitive process concepts have been the gift that keeps on giving.

    And I really feel that some amount of our tension has been caused by me being in a confused and disoriented space due to my own internal struggles with Fe-aux. I've found that the clearer I am, the more I can stand up for myself and not allow Fe-aux to create that nasty internal struggle in me, the better able we are to move well together (that's just my side of it, my necessary work in the process. She has her work/centering process too. But I'm focusing on what I am able to do to contribute to us being able to move well together).

    In our case, it's like some of what she reacts negatively to is when I am internally confused and disoriented, like that bothers her at some deep level. Which is truly awesome, actually. In my view, some of the dynamics in this this thread seems to be almost the opposite of that in some ways - with some participants not liking it when INFJs move toward centeredness, with INFJ centeredness marked as wrong and in need of change, and related underlying a push for us to remain in and even deepen a state in which we would be disoriented and somewhat disconnected from our actual perception.

    And I want to repeat in hopes that this does not get lost in this long comment: Given my experience, That push is not inevitable due simply to INFP/INFJ dynamics. My INFP seems naturally and organically inclined to LIKE IT when I am centered and clear and standing truly well in my own cognitive processes. She can't share that space with me, and we can get into trouble if we try that. But she seems naturally inclined to like it when I interact from a centered and clear space.

    The difference between that real life experience with my INFP and the dynamics in this thread on this point are quite striking to me. And not in a good way.

    From my vantage point, this thread's push on INFJs to see our normal cognitive process as suspect, wrong, something we "need to" change in order to interact well with INFPs is not only inaccurate to my own experience, but can actually be pretty harmful to INFJs and also to INFJ/INFP connections that based on authentic mutual desire for our own and each others' wellness.

    eta: bolded this part due to a suggestion I got in a PM to do so: On a conceptual level and from the INFJ side of things: if my experience is in any way relevant to other INFJs, one key to this may begin in sustained attention to how Fe actually operates as an AUX function in INFJs, rather than taking Fe-dom type descriptions/understanding and simply looking at it as Fi versus Fe. Fe is not our dominant and that is actually really really crucial information.
    Last edited by Werebudgie; 02-05-2014 at 01:19 AM. Reason: to add bolding to the past part per my eta note

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