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  1. #1551
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Hey Southern Kross,

    I'm not sure if we have the same thing in mind or not, but I'm going to throw a hypothesis out there and you can tell me what it looks like from your vantage point.

    I'm wondering if Fe tends to look for agreeable, common ground to establish relationship and goodwill and then moves towards areas of difference as the relationship or discussion progresses, while Fi Te goes at it from the opposite: disagreement to common ground.

    I find disagreement much less jarring and personal feeling once I have established some history with the other person and have more context to know where they are coming from. Disagreement from a stranger or an acquaintance feels more unsettling because there is no context to interpret it with. I actually am unlikely to express disagreement with someone unless there is a very compelling reason, or if I have enough history with the person that I think they'll know where I'm coming from and our relationship can take it. It's a compliment of sorts to trust someone with the weight of the potentially negative.

    I'm wondering whether Fi Te sees disagreement moving towards agreement as a more workable model. Does that ring true for you, or no?

    I have some ideas that I know would not go over well with some people on the forum. I am not ashamed of them, but neither do I feel it is useful to draw attention to our differences first, before they know where I am coming from and I have enough background information to know their views and better make sense of why we've arrived at very different conclusions.

    How do you feel about that sort of thing?
    Yes, this seems pretty accurate and an interesting insight. I still need to mull it over but it fits with what I'm seeing and experiencing. Note: I'm not sure if I am more focussed on a sort of consensus because I'm a So-dom - ie. I'm not totally sure if all NFPs would feel the same. I also would emphasize that "workable model" is the goal for Fi-Te, not necessarily literal agreement. I'm OK with ending up in "disagreement" per se, but I need to reconcile the divergence. In other words, the difference in conclusion has to fit into a model I understand. I have to be able to explain why things are different and for that to fit together in a cohesive way.

    I didn't realise INFJs feel like that about disagreement. I assumed Fe enjoys consensus, so that if you were in a good place, you would naturally seek it out. This certainly puts things in a different light...

    Do you think that is down to the nature of the Judging functions in general? Je needs external cohesion, but Ji is OK with deviation as long as it's internally consistent, And their order effects the progression a person prefers in life, as you move from your natural J function towards your less natural one: Je-Ji moves from cohesion to divergence, whereas Ji-Je does the reverse. I never thought of people as moving down their function order as a way of making sense of things - it seems backwards. I guess it's like shifting from the surface (of your consciousness) to the depths (of the unconscious), but maybe that's what we want - maybe that's how we infuse something meaningful into our being.

    It makes me think of something I observed in my ISFJ mum, which fits with things I've heard other FJs say too. She really likes reading Jodi Picoult books and how they deal with complex morality. If you're unfamiliar with them (I've never really read them), she writes stories about an intense event (or series of events) from multiple character perspectives, unveiling deeper moral dilemmas/questions as the story progresses. My mum just loves how it sets up all these assumptions in her mind at the start about who's at fault and what people should have done, and then as the story develops and more perspectives are revealed, these assumptions are totally challenged and undermined. My mum is left feeling really conflicted at the end, not knowing who to blame or what was the right thing to do. She finds that thrilling and challenging, but I've never really got what the fuss was about. That stuff doesn't really interest me, because how she feels at end is how I start off feeling at the beginning; that's just obvious stuff to me, so that journey is dull as hell. I like narrative journeys where evaluations come full circle and connect back together in a whole new form.

    And the strange thing is it's not like my mum has a preference for open-endedness and me for closure, because I know the complete opposite is true. I don't know how that fits into the picture. Perhaps I like open-endedness when it comes to the Perceptual elements but closure in the Judging ones. Perhaps there's a Perception equivalent to the Judging form of it (ie. Pe moving to Pi and vice versa)

    Lots to think about...
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  2. #1552
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I think that as much as I like consensus, I also value authenticity in myself and vulnerability that fosters closeness. I am just selective about who I do that with and to what extent. Being sensitive to disagreement and criticism myself, it takes some time to determine if I am perceiving correctly, if I have done everything on my end to change the situation before disturbing someone else with it and then determining whether bringing it up will lead to better understanding/outcome, or a whole lot more white noise to sort through later. I usually only will do that under extreme provocation, when I can extrapolate what kind of reaction to expect or if I'm involved enough with the person (professionally, familiarly, romantically) that the problem cannot be ignored or worked around. Because Ti is so detail oriented, and Ni generates so many possibilities, I often need to keep coming back to talk about stuff till all the details are sorted and laid to rest. This is tedious even for me, so there are only select people I'd want to do it with and only when I have to. I hate being misinterpreted as overly sensitive, nitpicky, or unforgiving, but I've learned that without dealing with those questions that come up, there is no long term resolution. What looks like going backsies is actually trying to figure out a practical form of resolution.

    That is why the people closest to me might see me as giving acquaintance friends a free pass for the same stuff that I would really be bothered with by them. It seems unfair to them, but an acquaintance friend is someone I can avoid or that I'm not affected by emotionally in the same sense.

    Like you though, I dislike no resolution. I do find though that if I have the answer to the whys of people acting as they do or the motivation fueling their interaction, it ceases to bother me in the same way. Once I know what is causing me to have strong gut level feeling, or understand the situation properly, I feel an incredible sense of internal resolution even if nothing has changed otherwise.

  3. #1553
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    @Southern Kross:

    Instead of waiting to see if this becomes even more explicitly relevant or drops away, I'm going to share it now - in hopes that it is more useful for you to have it explicit earlier than later (at the very least to help you decide if it's worth putting any time and energy into dialogue with me in general, or about particular topics).

    I've been thinking about our dialogue thus far specifically as it relates to my own Ni-Se perception. I've realized through reflection and another dialogue that it's important for me to distinguish between two very different kinds of conversations related to that Ni-Se perception. I'm thinking about it like this: There are two ways to approach the discussion of Ni-Se gut feelings in INFJs in general, or in me in particular:

    1. Using this question as a primary focal point: "Is this [Ni-Se] perception picking up something real?"

    -vs-

    2. Assuming that the Ni-Se perception is picking up something real, and seeking to understand what's going on with that Ni-Se information as part of the information available.

    These two approaches yield two very different conversations.

    My current understanding is that you tend not to trust Ni-Se perception as a real information source in a general sense. My current understanding is that while you might accept it as such under certain circumstances (some of which you've described in our dialogue), your approach to it would be more in line with conversation #1.

    It also seems to me that from your vantage point (and you can correct me if I'm inaccurate here) if an INFJ is simply unwilling to have conversation #1, you feel that there's something wrong with how the INFJ is interacting.

    So here's the thing with me in particular:

    When I'm working with Ni-Se perception as part of the mix, I find myself increasingly disinterested in having conversation #1, and far more interested in conversation #2. This goes along with my trajectory of moving away from my own distrust in my Ni-Se perception, and moving toward trusting it as real, valid and actionable information. For me, this trajectory is truly and quite deeply a matter of movement toward being more centered and well in my life.

    To the extent that you would call on me to engage in conversation #1 with you (or others), and to the extent that you would define my willingness to engage in conversation #1 as a good and even necessary thing ... I realize I'm really not interested in putting more energy into that kind of interaction.

    I will certainly understand if that makes a lot of our conversation threads into dead ends. But it is where I'm at. And to be clear, I'm not going to ask you to shift into willingness for conversation #2, because from everything I can tell, it's just not where you're at. Which is just as valid for you. I will say that I'd be delighted to interact with you in the context of conversation #2 if you ever assess that it's well and right for you to participate from that space in interaction with me. But whatever the case, I'm do want to be clear now that not going to put more energy into conversation #1 dialogue/interaction at this point in time.

    All of that that said, I still very much appreciate all of the dialogue we've had up to this point, even on stuff that I'll no longer be engaged with from this point forward. Even though I don't agree with where you're coming from for my own self, I respect that it is right for you. I have zero bad feelings about any of this on my end.

  4. #1554
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    I have no idea how this thread turned into what it is right now.

    I've been with my INFP for 5 years under impossible circumstances, and we both have shed a lot of tears over minor hurts, major hurts, world-shattering hurts. We both did a lot of adjusting again and again until we both felt we could not bend anymore, and at times it is just impossible, but we've survived so far, so I guess I can say I have direct experience with bridging the INFP-INFJ differences.

    I have one word to you all: there are three levels of intimacy between INFJ and INFP and only two of them work. First is the acquaintances/friends level -- you respect each other, take what they say at face value and believe them -- smooth relationship. Then there's the third level -- the intimate level -- family members, romantic partners -- where you have that blind trust that you are not trying to hurt each other, and you take things they say at face value and believe them. The 'middle level', however, can be problematic, because you seek to understand each other with out the 'respectful trust' of the first level and 'blind trust' of the third level, so you dig into the real differences, the incompatible viewpoints, and both of you think you're right and you have no idea why the other party just doesn't see it. Can't you see how cruel your behaviour is? How can you even say that?

    That's how I feel. You will never be able to bring the other person to your side totally, you just have to accept that you love them and they love you, and that neither of you are wrong or inferior in any other way, and you learn to love them just like that. Then beautiful things can happen.

    Over the years I've learned that to an INFP, INFJs are self-righteous, calculating, vindictive, stubborn, scheming little know-it-alls, and, guess what, compared to INFPs, we really are those things. It took a while for me to accept this. INFJs tend to be very hard on themselves and we try extremely hard to be fair and good and kind and ever-giving, but, I don't think we are any easier to deal with than any other types that we find 'infuriating'. And, yes, we have a way to make arguments perfectly logical and 'fair', and cold, but that's not what INFPs are looking for. If an INFP loves you, then they love you. That's it. That's the end, and that's all that matters. There's no appending clause of "and they will try their best to make you happy and sacrifice their happiness for you and blah blah blah" -- all this might very well be true, but it's not part of the condition in the first place. I feel that INFPs will never be entirely logical to INFJs, and that can be disconcerting. INFPs can say "I'm not obligated to stay with you" and that is extremely shocking to INFJs, because INFJs will feel a sense of obligation rising directly from feelings of love. For INFJs this "I will make you happy" directly follows from "I love you". It's one and the same entity. For INFPs, the "I love you" is just that. "I will make you happy" may result from it, but does not follow in a logical way like that. (And yes, this sense of obligation is terrifying for INFPs as well, because it's "You feel obligated to stay with me?" [shock and hurt follows])

    I've tried and tried to explain this, but we have to in the end seek to 'give'. We give what we can, and don't judge what they give back. We treasure all the differences as a reminder that there are strange and beautiful and larger things outside of ourselves.

    This probably has a lot of INFJ E4 flavor plus INFP E9 flavor, but that's how it is for me. You can never totally get it. To make it work at all you have to step back and just enjoy the dance.

    There goes my probably unhelpful 2 cents
    i really like your point about trust. in some sense, trust does not have to be a product of understanding, nor does it have to be a product of empathy. it can also come from accepting that in relationships our faith and our capacity to love, brought about and stretched through the way we have worked together to give each other what we could and appreciated what we received from that, allowing that to grow for the both of us, and the way through giving and receiving that we've shared so much and been able to bring each other into ourselves in that way, is based on what is true for us. when we can find that self-trust, we can love regardless. those other aspects are amazing to experience (sharing understanding, sharing empathy), but they don't substitute for the deeper, wholly integrated sense of what love is. together, they're just the center of it, as it emerges when we share ourselves with each other as we are.

  5. #1555
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    i really like your point about trust. in some sense, trust does not have to be a product of understanding, nor does it have to be a product of empathy. it can also come from accepting that in relationships our faith and our capacity to love, brought about and stretched through the way we have worked together to give each other what we could and appreciated what we received from that, allowing that to grow for the both of us, and the way through giving and receiving that we've shared so much and been able to bring each other into ourselves in that way, is based on what is true for us. when we can find that self-trust, we can love regardless. those other aspects are amazing to experience (sharing understanding, sharing empathy), but they don't substitute for the deeper, wholly integrated sense of what love is. together, they're just the center of it, as it emerges when we share ourselves with each other as we are.
    the state i am in: You just put words to my incoherent background reflections on this topic as I mulled over that truly great post from @21% that you quote. I was asking myself, "But, okay, so really ... what IS trust in that third level?" ^ ^ This quote from you - this is it ^ ^. This is what I have been trying to find words for in myself. Thank you so much. I can't adequately express how much I appreciate it.

  6. #1556
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLD View Post
    I responded to the portion I quoted. I don't like the assertion that everything is a projection. We're not *always* reacting to projections. As Freud said: "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." There's an objective reality out there, and we're responding to that reality as well as experiencing our own fears.
    And I/others need to care about what you like because? You just demonstrated an example off projecting needs onto others. Do not wish to enable that, just wanted to point it out.
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  7. #1557
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    Interesting. It does seem like something that would be helpful. I also wonder about how to support that.

    I don't know Inception. I'm wary about the Matrix as a way to talk about it because I feel like there's so much other theory/philosophy/ideology packed into that story, so much cultural symbolism and stuff about superiority and "the one" and tons of other stuff, that I worry it would blur things up in some ways I wouldn't be able to articulate without a painstaking analysis process that I don't have energy for now (if ever). Frustrating, but this is how my mind works.
    That's OK. I just thought it might help.

    I wonder if at some levels, it's something that just won't translate. I wonder if my description of the landscape discussion I had with my INFP partner might be of any use - not so much to translate my reality, but to get at some differences between Fi and Ni in relation to landscapes:
    That makes sense.

    I guess the Fi part is true of me (I'll have to think more on that, though). But I would add that I see all people as having an inner organic landscape too, and perhaps it's totally imperceptible to them, and/or it is less intricately fused to their being. So even though you move to other landscapes there's still a meta-landscape inside you. I also can have awareness on other people's inner organic landscape too. I can 'psychicly' transfer myself to them, whilst remaining bodily in my own - like channelling in reverse (ie. I'm being channelled into their's, not them into mine). Over time I become aware of the many inner landscapes, the patterns of them, and that the stuff that makes up my landscape is also common to others - so in a sense the building blocks are pre-existing and are not simply made by individual human beings. So I understand the sense that Ni landscapes exist even without you being them, because I can feel an approximate thing.

    Well, the one word I would quibble with is remembering (so this may get in the way of the Si-based understanding). I write music also, and for me it's more like finding the tune and lyrics than remembering. However! That said ... removing any assumption of linear time (and linear time is not the primary mode of time in my Ni landscape), it could be the same thing. Remembering is the same as finding if time is a coordinate in the landscape. And I bet that really helped with the translation (not). Sorry!
    Yes, I think it still fits; it's like accessing inner knowledge of the path. With Si that means trying to recall what it looked like, but with Ni it's like intuiting/foreseeing it, yet it already exists in your mind's eye and you're merely having to discover/uncover it. In both cases it's like the path was always there; there's just a mental strain involved to consciously perceive and reveal it.

    The musician probably put it better than I did and I'm misquoting him.

    How old are you? She's in her 40s, as am I. When she spoke about it, it felt to me like a carefully considered choice on her part rather than a lack of development. But who knows what will emerge for her or for me in our respective centering trajectories.
    I'm 30. Usually Te is a thing that starts to properly develop in an INFP's 20s. Seeing your partner is past that stage, I must be just misunderstanding her thought process.

    Interesting. I still feel like I don't get it because I read that and all I can think is OMFG NE IS SO FREAKING ADORABLE! *hug hug hug* My response is clearly not helpful to analytical understanding.
    I'm glad you find it so.

    It's a bit like Fi has a sensation and then Ne just runs around trying to please it. Ne just loves everything Fi has to say. It gets all excited and starts babbling about all the ideas that it inspired. Fi then gets a great feeling in return, because it sparks more interesting sensations.

    It's unfortunate you feel uneasy about your partner's Fi. It's hard to meaningfully describe the beauty of Fi in a way you could relate to, but I'll try:

    Do you know that feeling when you hear a piece of music that really affects you intensely? That sensation of shivers passing all through you and the hair all over your body standing on end? How it accesses something deep inside you and the world recedes? How in that moment it has given you a true sense of something greater and more fundamental; a sense of beauty and meaning so wonderful and revelatory that you could almost cry? That's Fi feels like. Of course it's to varying degrees, depending on the circumstances.

    So Fi and Ne can be like combining revelation and inspiration, then feeding the two endlessly back into each other. That can create all sorts of warm and fuzzy feelings.

    I hear you.

    I agree that it's very rarely that forceful, but there can be a lesser form of that. I used hyperbole to get the point across. I suppose the extreme would also be a situation where a INxJ is fully committed to their perception, or is somehow compelled into action.

    Thanks for this answer. It helps to hear you detail this.

    So do you feel a conscious awareness of a need to balance your trust in your perceptions with respecting people's own path? Do you sometimes let the plane crash rather than risk stepping in and upsetting people?

    Again interesting. So do you feel like if you are fully aligned with your organic landscape things will fall naturally into place (for you and others)? Is it just a matter of tuning that alignment for clarity to emerge?

    Yeah, I can see both sides of that. When things are going wrong, it is difficult to know how much you should help direct that person and how much you should let them go in the wrong direction (in hopes that they'll eventually figure it out) - especially if it effects you too.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Could you provide a example or analogy for that? I can't totally grasp how that works.

    Yes, but sometimes the other person can feel the INxJ's hand on the yoke, even if when the INXJ thinks they're not interfering. Subtle efforts from you guys might be softly spoken, but can echo much louder in the ears the other person. That's partly what I want to get across. The INXJ in the analogy might think they're just gently persuading the pilot, and not taking over at all; and people who process things similarly might agree, if they were to observe it. But other people that are more sensitive and conscious of the elements in play, may see it as grossly invasive or bullying. I'm not saying that either the pilot or the INXJ are to blame for the mismatch - it's just the way things are sometimes.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  8. #1558
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Perhaps this analogy may help: There's background radiation and radio waves in our everyday environment that we cannot sense/perceive...Consider Ni as a receiver/detector tuned to pick up on that data (layer)...

    Or a more metaphorical analogy would be Ni is gazing into the spirit realm...Is that analogous to the Ni layer that you were describing Werebudgie ?
    These metaphors help, thanks.

    That's probably best, yes. It would help practically and it would help her to feel supported. Just being reminded that another person is there for you whenever you might need them can be very comforting and enabling. If you want to be a bit more involved, do it in baby steps and test the water at each stage.

    Se user also like to go through the motions themselves BTW, so it could make her more resistant to theoretical guidance.

    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    Absolutely.

    "Owning your needs" is such a great phrase. Yes, that's very much it. I appreciate that this is hard for you guys. I just think that when things get tense and emotional, FJs may need to stop and consult their feelings a little more. Even if the resulting conclusion is merely, "I'm confused and unhappy with how this is going, but I'm not sure why", then that's enough. I find that quite disarming. It makes me want to give that person more leeway and consideration.

    can you give an example or two? if you can find something from my own posts, that would be best, because i am willing to hear that.
    All the instances the immediately spring to mind are of other people's posts, and I'm circumspect about hanging them out to dry without their permission. Sorry. I've just been having a conversation in private messages with Yeghor about how useless I am with going back and detailing the Perceptive thought process. I don't take mental notes along the way - I react and move forward, without noting the details of the connection itself. I do wish I could help you out. I realise it's pretty shitty really to say that stuff and not back it up.

    I can respect that.

    you sound like my adviser.


    i know it's more work, but if you can find an example, it might be clearer to me what you tangibly experience.
    I found a old post where I mentioned this in that other thread. I'm not sure if it helps.

    It's how INFJs say, "OK, I agree with your view and why you would react like that" and then later say in not so many words, "you are wrong about that" or "I had a good reason to do that". The first part is a validation and reaching a sort of consensus. That lets me know I can stop harping on about that to you, because you 'get me'; you see how I feel about it and respect that, so we're on the same page about it, which is great. So I let that stuff go and move on. But later when the discussion circles back to that subject, you instead start justifying the same behaviour. It can feel like I've been duped or invalidated. The wife beating metaphor is particularly pertinent, in this case, just in a longer time frame.

    I'm not sure if that helps.

    That's fine. I just felt like things were circling too much, that's all.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  9. #1559
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    The thread's suddenly become much more crowded...At the risk of sounding paranoid, why did you (relatively at this specific moment) newcomers opted to participate all of a sudden at this exact (pivotal?) moment? This doesn't mean you shouldn't have...just curious why now? And were you silently observing the discussion all along or were you alerted to something somehow?

    If it felt to you like we were ganging up on @PeaceBaby and you felt for whatever reason a need to rush to her rescue and support, please really do contemplate whether you may inadvertantly be enabling her and preventing her from confronting her hurt by acting as proxies...
    I'll respond to this.

    The interactions in the thread reminds me of my own interactions with my INFP, where we go around and around in circles and nothing futile can come out of it. One thing I've realized in myself is that INFJs tend to have 'external evidence' from Fe on their side, which will come down on the INFPs like a sledgehammer of justice. In my relationship, arguments early on (as well as now from time to time) tend end with INFP recoiling in tremendous hurt and me sounding like a vehement self-righteous prick. Then we both feel bad, with no way of resolving it.

    You see, somehow I'm always 'right' -- I do have a way to argue. Even before I start arguing I already have sorted out my arguments in a perfectly logical order. I've prepared well my case and this has been distilled through a long, winding process of self-doubt and evidence and counter-evidence on both sides, until I am absolutely certain I have the right to feel wronged, so when I open my mouth I do so with conviction. Oh, I always have good intentions. I want to reconcile. I've mapped out several ways in that the reconciliation can happen and I offer them sincerely. I'm willing to forgive and I'm willing to ask for forgiveness if I have done anything wrong on my part.

    But, to my bewilderment, it doesn't work. And usually it leads to even more hurt, and more arguments, and we were stuck for a very long time in an endless loop of arguments and hurt feelings. Yes, we are sorry we hurt each other, but we cannot do anything that will heal the hurt while still being authentic to ourselves and our values at the same time.

    Slowly, I came to realize that something must be wrong with this approach.

    Like I said in my earlier post, it is impossible to bring the other over to your side completely. You just have to trust them and everyone has to just try not to feel hurt. I still don't understand Fi completely, but perhaps it's not something you can understand intellectually. To me Fi is still extremely judgmental, subjective, and perhaps even unfair in its disregard for 'universals'. I don't doubt Fe feels the same way to Fi users. I just had to adjust my expectation, that we see different things and we react to things differently. It's completely foreign, so no matter how hard you try to bash it with 'logic' and 'education' it will not work.

    I know Fe users like to educate other people -- with the best intentions. But if you want to know how that feels like, listen to a very religious person trying to educate you about their religion. To Fi users, we sound like that.

    So I guess that's why I chimed in. I'm not saying all the INFJs are being unfair. Without my relationship with my INFP, I would have reacted exactly the same way and wonder why they feel hurt. Now I know there is something else, like another set of values, that remains hidden in Fi, that I can only see glimpses of, so I tend to filter that into my consideration as well. I will say again that I don't know exactly why this thread exploded the way it did, but I'm just saying that INFJ reactions (including my own) can seem very absolute and terrifying.

    To be honest, the best way to resolve conflicts between INFP and me seems to be "Screw this. Let's cuddle." We apologize for hurting each other, and in the future try not to tread where we're not supposed to even when we don't understand why the 'Do not enter' sign is there. No blame. No fingers pointed.
    Last edited by 21%; 02-04-2014 at 01:48 AM. Reason: typo
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    The thread's suddenly become much more crowded...At the risk of sounding paranoid, why did you (relatively at this specific moment) newcomers opted to participate all of a sudden at this exact (pivotal?) moment? This doesn't mean you shouldn't have...just curious why now? And were you silently observing the discussion all along or were you alerted to something somehow?

    If it felt to you like we were ganging up on @PeaceBaby and you felt for whatever reason a need to rush to her rescue and support, please really do contemplate whether you may inadvertantly be enabling her and preventing her from confronting her hurt by acting as proxies...
    I have older posts in this thread that don't even remotely relate to the current social climate on this forum.

    The discrepancies, differences, and interplay between Fi/Ne and Ni/Fe have always seemed to be of special interest to me because of how paradoxically familiar yet alien Ni/Fe can seem to me. NFJs tend to wind up in the same places I do, attempting to achieve similar goals, but different things motivate you guys, so you respond in almost the exact opposite ways under the same stimuli. To me, our differences seem like a ripe area in which personal growth can be achieved. I would even go as far to say that, under a stringently Jungian lens, it's the only area for personal growth to be achieved.

    PeaceBaby has served as a catalyst, intentionally or unintentionally, for people to highlight Fi/Ne - Ni/Fe differences in particular. However, even though she's a fellow INFP, she and I come from very different paths in life; despite my "INFJ baggage", I don't seem to be carrying near the same level of emotional investment into this conversation.

    I would like to see mutual respect established between the members involved here, even if it means that certain members choose to take a breather and ignore the contents of this discussion completely.

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