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  1. #1541
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    i don't know if it is because of value, or because in close relationships we seem to go so far until it is over (and part of this also might be the e4 --> e2 stress point, where we lose ourselves and struggle feeling stuck in our identification with the other person, projecting all the while). i don't really see any clear instances of "doorslamming" in my past, i mean, i have breakups, and i'd tend to avoid certain people, but never have i just cut ties on a close relationship. i'd avoid explaining, at times, that the relationship wasn't for me what it was for the other person, and i do regret not being more straightforward or being more willing and more committed to finding an effective way to communicate that. i admit that part of it was my own unwillingness to be the bad guy, even if it was just in someone else's eyes. oftentimes, i didn't grasp my own needs, so i couldn't really do so in a non-violent way where i could both accept and respect us both, and allow that to be enough, with no quasi-absolute perspective to feel like i needed to orient towards. i may struggle to see and empathize with the other person through a major change in how i view a relationship. i knew an infj girl who i was friends with who, when she had found out that i had dated another girl in our class when we were friends in undergrad, seemed hurt and wouldn't really engage me after the fact. i think the unwillingness to even allow for explanations might be an Fe thing (i can imagine enfjs and entps, especially 3w4s who come to mind; more reason why to me it's part of the e4 disconnect ability). but the demand to control the explanation of what happened when we are hurt, when dammnit we need to come first, is not.

    i do wonder too, because i'm relating to your posts a lot in this thread, whether you feel that some of the doorslam thing is in part an e4 phenomenon? one of my best friends is an infp 4w5 so/sx. he's told me stories about cutting ties, telling people off and distrusting them. i think he tells me this because i just get where it comes from, i too know what it's like (at least for the most part). it to me feels like something we can genuinely share. like the experience that we have to choose ourselves, because our shaming is piling up so fast we have to abandon one of us. i can't feel this way about myself any more, and i'm so angry that i do. the breaking point thing seems to be about the ability to suddenly disconnect from others. this feels vintage e4 to me.

    as i've tried to say elsewhere, it might be a bit different in terms for an infj in that they may struggle even more so to feel in touch with their own needs. maybe we stay polite on the outer surface more. maybe we do not trust ourselves to be able to manage our own boundaries or trust ourselves to be able to say no. maybe we struggle to find the resources to know ourselves in a way that we can communicate effectively not just about what is happening but in terms of where we are at. that's a crucial difference.

    what was your doorslam experience? from your description of the way you feel like you converse with infjs (the testing each other thing, which i know too, and i too know how it feels when it's overcome by trust), it's easier for me to trust how you represent the situation with the picture of your experience you paint. i did at least go into avoidance mode with one infp, a 4w5 so/sx. we both felt super distrustful of each other's motives, but at the same time, we had a lot to talk about. i think in that case our respective self-esteem issues conflicted. for me, there was some boundary violation and insinuation that made me feel uncomfortable. i kind of felt like i was a story he was researching for a writing project. like, when you respond, and theyre already in the middle of elaborating their next question to characterize you, and you're just exhausted by the feeling that something is being taken from you. and you don't even get to speak for yourself, directly. to be fair, i kinda think i get where he was coming from, but to offer to get to the center of that whirling blades machine was not feasible for me. i had my own shit to deal with that i wasn't doing very well with. and i think i did believe in the possibility of being direct with each other (and this difficulty being direct with each other, maybe more than anything, can be a frustration in the infj/infp dynamic).

    eta: at least now, i'm starting to recognize that this quasi-absolute perspective to orient towards has to do with what i want to contribute to the world, what i believe in, and not what is inherently "right." it's not easy both grounding yourself and letting go of the foundationalist quality of belief at the same time. i think recognizing that there's more ways of being present in the situation is a good start.
    Wow, even though I felt like my post didn't warrant such a thoughtful response, I appreciate the depth you've explored here.

    I didn't consider the possibility that doorslamming was local to E4s more than it is INFJs. I know that I've dropped off the face of the earth for a few people once I realized that our values were in direct conflict with each other. My craving for personal integrity is practically married to the feeling that I may be inconsistent - I develop inconsistencies when I make undue sacrifices for others. I would associate this with my E2 disintegration point, where I lose myself for someone else and boundaries can no longer be salvageable. When this happens, I experience a reflexive counter-phobic urge to push back; given the context in which I may have sacrificed a lot for someone else, my behavior can seem like outright rebellion, when perhaps from a more objective POV, it's a long-overdue line to be drawn. There's definitely an element of spite and, if overthought, an element of vengeance and or personal justice. Most of these dynamics orbit around the desire to maintain my individuality, so the E4 denotation makes sense.

    The picture I painted in my prior post actually alluded to an INTJ, but it still holds relevance to the discussion.

    I'm not sure if, by "doorslam experience", you refer to just general doorslamming, or doorslamming done by INFJs, but I'll choose the former meaning, given that we're embarking on an alternative explanation for why doorslamming happens.

    I think the first time I doorslammed someone, it was in gradeschool. I confided to him my personal crush after much diffidence, and he immediately bolted into a crowd of students, revealing the fact that I had feelings for this girl. Even though he was my best friend, I was mortified and no longer spoke with him afterward.

    The second time was in High School - a close ENTP friend from middle school was heavily involved with substance abuse, and by simply hearing about his shenanigans, I felt like I was forsaking my straight-edge values. I texted him about how I felt, because I couldn't really bring myself to verbally push back. I valued him as a friend too much to hurt him. He ignored my text and called me without any intent to explore the issue, so I cut off all contact despite his repeated attempts to engage.

    Later in High School, I was involved with an INFJ who went on a spiritual journey with me, of sorts. We toyed around with the idea of marriage. At a certain point, I felt I couldn't keep up with her ambitious pursuit of what she considered to be The Truth. So, I told her that, deep down, I was having some doubts about what I had come to believe, and she herself fell off the face of the earth. I think I was expecting her to accept my lack of faith because I thought she loved me, but she wasn't having it. Eventually, we came to an uneasy agreement to maintain a level of friendship, but it didn't feel congruent to me, so I disappeared. She then made several calculated efforts to gain my favor, but I felt they were too contrived to rebuild what we had months prior. Things between us dissolved on every front. I experienced a lot of heartache throughout, and I think our relationship still effects something very integral to my psychological makeup to this day.

    I'm sorry you had to deal with the feeling of being someone's research project.

  2. #1542
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexicon View Post

    Seriously, this thread (& others like it) become a platform for people to dissect the same highly subjective issue ad nauseum in a pseudo-categorical(...)
    Bullshit and i ll give you highly specific personal examples to prove
    The universality of my statements
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  3. #1543
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    I gotta say, this thread got a bunch of *cough* flags waved up all in our faces. Part of the mods' job is to peer around at the context behind the attention. Reading through, though, I can't make heads or tails of this one. Roger Rabbit smashing plates over his head for 10 minutes is a close approximation for what I'm seeing.

    Regardless of what I do or don't think, though, y'all should know that we're gonna have to keep a bit of an eye out on this thread.

  4. #1544
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
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    I have no idea how this thread turned into what it is right now.

    I've been with my INFP for 5 years under impossible circumstances, and we both have shed a lot of tears over minor hurts, major hurts, world-shattering hurts. We both did a lot of adjusting again and again until we both felt we could not bend anymore, and at times it is just impossible, but we've survived so far, so I guess I can say I have direct experience with bridging the INFP-INFJ differences.

    I have one word to you all: there are three levels of intimacy between INFJ and INFP and only two of them work. First is the acquaintances/friends level -- you respect each other, take what they say at face value and believe them -- smooth relationship. Then there's the third level -- the intimate level -- family members, romantic partners -- where you have that blind trust that you are not trying to hurt each other, and you take things they say at face value and believe them. The 'middle level', however, can be problematic, because you seek to understand each other with out the 'respectful trust' of the first level and 'blind trust' of the third level, so you dig into the real differences, the incompatible viewpoints, and both of you think you're right and you have no idea why the other party just doesn't see it. Can't you see how cruel your behaviour is? How can you even say that?

    That's how I feel. You will never be able to bring the other person to your side totally, you just have to accept that you love them and they love you, and that neither of you are wrong or inferior in any other way, and you learn to love them just like that. Then beautiful things can happen.

    Over the years I've learned that to an INFP, INFJs are self-righteous, calculating, vindictive, stubborn, scheming little know-it-alls, and, guess what, compared to INFPs, we really are those things. It took a while for me to accept this. INFJs tend to be very hard on themselves and we try extremely hard to be fair and good and kind and ever-giving, but, I don't think we are any easier to deal with than any other types that we find 'infuriating'. And, yes, we have a way to make arguments perfectly logical and 'fair', and cold, but that's not what INFPs are looking for. If an INFP loves you, then they love you. That's it. That's the end, and that's all that matters. There's no appending clause of "and they will try their best to make you happy and sacrifice their happiness for you and blah blah blah" -- all this might very well be true, but it's not part of the condition in the first place. I feel that INFPs will never be entirely logical to INFJs, and that can be disconcerting. INFPs can say "I'm not obligated to stay with you" and that is extremely shocking to INFJs, because INFJs will feel a sense of obligation rising directly from feelings of love. For INFJs this "I will make you happy" directly follows from "I love you". It's one and the same entity. For INFPs, the "I love you" is just that. "I will make you happy" may result from it, but does not follow in a logical way like that. (And yes, this sense of obligation is terrifying for INFPs as well, because it's "You feel obligated to stay with me?" [shock and hurt follows])

    I've tried and tried to explain this, but we have to in the end seek to 'give'. We give what we can, and don't judge what they give back. We treasure all the differences as a reminder that there are strange and beautiful and larger things outside of ourselves.

    This probably has a lot of INFJ E4 flavor plus INFP E9 flavor, but that's how it is for me. You can never totally get it. To make it work at all you have to step back and just enjoy the dance.

    There goes my probably unhelpful 2 cents
    4w5 sp/sx EII

  5. #1545
    Temporal Mechanic. Lexicon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Bullshit and i ll give you highly specific personal examples to prove
    The universality of my statements
    I'll kick you, frenchbear.

    *edit*
    oh wait, I misread

    (that's what I get for trying to multitask)
    Last edited by Lexicon; 02-03-2014 at 02:24 AM. Reason: durr
    03/23 06:06:58 EcK: lex
    03/23 06:06:59 EcK: lex
    03/23 06:21:34 Nancynobullets: LEXXX *sacrifices a first born*
    03/23 06:21:53 Nancynobullets: We summon yooouuu
    03/23 06:29:07 Lexicon: I was sleeping!



    04/25 04:20:35 Patches: Don't listen to lex. She wants to birth a litter of kittens. She doesnt get to decide whats creepy

    02/16 23:49:38 ygolo: Lex is afk
    02/16 23:49:45 Cimarron: she's doing drugs with Jack

    03/05 19:27:41 Time: You can't make chat morbid. Lex does it naturally.

  6. #1546
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Perhaps this analogy may help: There's background radiation and radio waves in our everyday environment that we cannot sense/perceive...Consider Ni as a receiver/detector tuned to pick up on that data (layer)...

    Or a more metaphorical analogy would be Ni is gazing into the spirit realm...Is that analogous to the Ni layer that you were describing @Werebudgie ?
    The first piece about the background stuff in our everyday environment makes sense to me. One way I see it is this: there are 5 culturally recognized senses in the broad cultural context in which I live. Jung et al developed this cognitive function and MBTI system inside that broad cultural environment. In this context, the difference between intuition and sensing is a big huge distinction, and sensing is considered "picking up on reality" in a way that intuition isn't.

    I suspect that in a cultural context in which other senses, and other layers of reality those senses perceive, were acknowledged as valid, the distinction possibly wouldn't be such a big deal.

    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    I've been with my INFP for 5 years under impossible circumstances, and we both have shed a lot of tears over minor hurts, major hurts, world-shattering hurts. We both did a lot of adjusting again and again until we both felt we could not bend anymore, and at times it is just impossible, but we've survived so far, so I guess I can say I have direct experience with bridging the INFP-INFJ differences.

    I have one word to you all: there are three levels of intimacy between INFJ and INFP and only two of them work. First is the acquaintances/friends level -- you respect each other, take what they say at face value and believe them -- smooth relationship. Then there's the third level -- the intimate level -- family members, romantic partners -- where you have that blind trust that you are not trying to hurt each other, and you take things they say at face value and believe them. The 'middle level', however, can be problematic, because you seek to understand each other with out the 'respectful trust' of the first level and 'blind trust' of the third level, so you dig into the real differences, the incompatible viewpoints, and both of you think you're right and you have no idea why the other party just doesn't see it. Can't you see how cruel your behaviour is? How can you even say that?

    That's how I feel. You will never be able to bring the other person to your side totally, you just have to accept that you love them and they love you, and that neither of you are wrong or inferior in any other way, and you learn to love them just like that. Then beautiful things can happen.
    Speaking as an INFJ in a 4 year relationship with an INFP - and we have had tons and tons of real world external stressors, possibly akin to near-impossible circumstances - this description really interesting to me! We got serious very quickly, and had lots of clashes from that space ... and as I read the above description I was thinking: Could it be that for however long, we were trying to do intense life-intertwined intimacy from that middle level? That could explain some things. Really really interesting food for thought.

    eta: You mentioned enneagram. I'm 6w5, and she's 9w8. FWIW.

    To make it work at all you have to step back and just enjoy the dance.
    That resonates for me.

    There goes my probably unhelpful 2 cents
    It was helpful for me, at least.

    @Southern Kross:


  7. #1547
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winds of Thor View Post
    From what I understood @Ginkgo was talking about how the discussion may get tainted with and tangled up in emotional context when it is about emotionally invested personal issues...

    Quote Originally Posted by Winds of Thor
    Quote Originally Posted by Gingko
    Yeah, when personal values are your first priority, and you're at odds with someone, handling the situation can become twisted in its deliberation.
    Yeah, seems like delusion stemming from pride or something.

    There are so many details and descriptions being attempted and you people need to know that spelling everything out has its limits.
    In reference to his/her quote, I thought you were coming from where Gingko left off and criticizing the posters that somethings (when emotionally volatile) be better left alone and not spelled out...

    I didn't try to emotionally manipulate you...Those were legitimate questions that popped into my mind...By voicing them out for clarification, I've found out that I've misunderstood your comment...that I was mistaken...

    What you've meant (as it became clearer in your second post) language (especially in written form) has its limits when conveying one's ideas and thoughts...? So by interpreting a fundamentally incomplete (or subjective?) data (and asking for clarification to make it more complete), some INFJs in the thread are getting ahead of themselves (out of pride/arrogance)? We might as well leave the forum altogether...?

    That may drive some people away from me as you suggest but that is a risk I am willing to take...And please contemplate on whether you acted the same way that you accused me of doing in your quoted post...

    Sorry for the misunderstanding @Winds of Thor...My bad...

    ***********

    About the thread:

    The thread's suddenly become much more crowded...At the risk of sounding paranoid, why did you (relatively at this specific moment) newcomers opted to participate all of a sudden at this exact (pivotal?) moment? This doesn't mean you shouldn't have...just curious why now? And were you silently observing the discussion all along or were you alerted to something somehow?

    If it felt to you like we were ganging up on @PeaceBaby and you felt for whatever reason a need to rush to her rescue and support, please really do contemplate whether you may inadvertantly be enabling her and preventing her from confronting her hurt by acting as proxies...

  8. #1548
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    Hello

    I am an infj with problems with infp friend.shes so emotional that I feel like thinking 100 times before I talk and its like walking on egg shells.
    she believes in this theory of karma or reincarnation and argue argue and use force also me to believe this.
    its pathetic I say.easy outburst of anger ,when I give suggestions for her to move out of self pity or loneliness thing,she feels controlled.
    much positive energy is gone.i have taken some space from her for a month.i feel so fresh with other people.

    why do INFPs feel like a martyr?is it low self worth?

  9. #1549
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mariya View Post
    Hello

    I am an infj with problems with infp friend.shes so emotional that I feel like thinking 100 times before I talk and its like walking on egg shells.
    she believes in this theory of karma or reincarnation and argue argue and use force also me to believe this.
    its pathetic I say.easy outburst of anger ,when I give suggestions for her to move out of self pity or loneliness thing,she feels controlled.
    much positive energy is gone.i have taken some space from her for a month.i feel so fresh with other people.

    why do INFPs feel like a martyr?is it low self worth?

  10. #1550
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    Thanks for your contribution Ginkgo... It's these Si narratives that I've been hoping for...Thru these narratives I can see what went wrong with much more ease...

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