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  1. #1521
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Still trying to catch up. I'm being fair and responding to the oldest first.


    At the risk of sounding evasive, I don't know; I can't really do that. It's so difficult to describe that sort of thing. As it has been said before, INFPs often react to things in "feeling tones", which are some of the most intangible concepts in existence. I suppose what happened was that I picked up a vibe, and then I saw PB reacting in a way that I grasped with familiarity, and I connected the two naturally. When I talked about empathising strongly with her, I mean that I felt that I felt her feelings so keenly as if they were channelled through me. I could feel all the unsaid things behind what she said so clearly - I could hear her inner voice.* Now I'm sure I got some details wrong, but the underlying elements I'm believe were fairly accurate.

    It's hard to point out specifics of what causes problems because it's so subtle and so connected to many other subtle elements through Ne, that it's almost pointless to describe that stuff. Even PB responded to the thing as a whole rather than go through line by line.

    I apologise for being difficult and vague.

    *This is all very wanky and ridiculous to write down BTW. I feel like an idiot. That's part of the reason why INFPs don't bother explaining that stuff - it just sounds like silly nonsense.
    i get you. the overarching comprehension is part of the F blessing and curse. but it also challenges the communication process when we need to get down to the nitty gritty. if we can at least recognize how T can assist us in owning and relating to our own emotions well, then we can be realistic on our selves behalf.

    i feel like we need to use some kind of digital illustrator to articulate how the different information structures of cognitive functions move and flow, how we can grasp the shape of them in process and the quality of their pattern. to feel solidly engaged, T needs something it can objectively observe, something it can visualize. i appreciate the attempt at describing what it feels like to you.


    Some of it felt like dodging the issue and then turning it around in a different way. I know this is how you guys operate, but man, it can feel like someone passing cups of tea to you around the elephant in the room, whilst discussing the weather. It becomes more problematic when the whole thing is then turned around into a theoretical discussion on, "why elephants make awkward guests and why one should avoid bringing them to tea parties". Instead of just saying, "This elephant makes me uncomfortable and I don't like it because (X). Is it yours and did you bring mean to bring it? If so why? I would appreciate if you didn't in future" or whatever. The thing is all you have to say is, "I feel (Y)" or "I don't understand - what do you mean by (Z)?" because that's all you have to say to get our attention and co-operation.
    i hear you. i admit i struggle to not get caught up in the speculative e5 explanation game when there's joint work to be done that requires more direct action. the deep underlying Ti need of inquiry, when coupled with iNtuition (and mental glulttony), is not easy for me to let go of. i get distracted really easily, and can just sit and talk with ntps about math, or dharma, or the mechanics of team-building in nba basketball for days on end.

    i also recognize that while it's just enjoyable on the one hand, on the other, it allows me to misrecognize myself, to not own my needs and recognize that those are the beginnings for how i can non-violently communicate with and ultimately relate to others. it can be a way of focusing on what i deem right rather than truly owning what i need. this is not easy for the Fe-Ti types of the world. rightness is a big part of how we naturally operate. in its own balancing act, it requires Fe consideration for how you treat others with respect while following the way of right. at the same time, being able to find and connect with personal need, which is what i feel the Fi perspective is, offers a different way of loving yourself and loving others. it's incredibly refreshing.

    BTW I personally wasn't immediately offended by your post, but PB was in a different mindset to me and I can see why she felt like that. I think part of the problem is that she was trying to cut through the "white-noise" and discuss the elephant (ie. get to the heart of the matter) but in response you guys kept dancing around it and convoluting the whole thing. In some cases people kept turning everything she said around and made it about her, implying she was the source of the problem (this is the result, not the intention). This is also strange because Js (especially Je dom/aux) are supposed to be the ones keeping thing moving forward with clarity and purpose, and here's some Ps (especially Je-inf) complaining about stalling, deflecting, digressing and nit-picking. I just think INFJs can delay progress by analysing stuff to death, churning out yet more unnecessary complexity and confusion like a giant fog machine. No one point can be agreed upon, so nothing moves forward. And when it's used in discussion which it places your type in a negative light, it starts to look like a conscious effort to make things go around in circles, distancing it further from yourself each time round. I'm increasingly starting to see it as your denial function.

    I realise that sounds harsh, but I don't know how to put it lightly without adding more obscurity. I do honestly believe you mean well and think you have a lot of valuable things to say.
    can you give an example or two? if you can find something from my own posts, that would be best, because i am willing to hear that.

    for me, it just comes down to finding balanced perspective. i want to show you the advantages and disadvantages. the strengths and not just own the weaknesses. i want to feel that i am appreciated for who i am and that all strengths and specializations offer trade-offs (and this is where Te drives me fucking mad! because i don't feel heard); nothing can be perfect or complete, as much as my ego wishes i could be, when it can find no freedom from giving up itself so that it can receive from others more freely. i recognize too that this is partly my own shame mechanism in action. the other is the maybe higher level of formality, of identified with the overtly expressed, than an Fi type needs. you can see it all over this thread. as infj, i want you to tell me what you heard. that is a big part of how i feel connected to you, and how i navigate my own sense of the relationship.

    and as an e5, that balanced perspective that i am always searching for and resting on is addicted to being comprehensive. meanwhile, a Te critique is generally more about the moment and more about setting forth a claim with immediate provability. it's difficult for me to give up the holism of Fe for that, my sense of what is beautiful and what is ecological. Te without the rich infp context you bring to it doesn't really connect for me unless you can share the context even more than the judgment.


    Thanks? I know it's rather clumsy but I have made mistakes before in not establishing goodwill beforehand. I also can be unconsciously insensitive because I naturally tend to skip disclaimers and framing devices, even explanations, as I think these are implied and obvious. I realise other people need these things, so I need to try to harder (especially in writing, because gestures and tone can function as framing devices themselves). I knew what I was about to say was potentially offensive and that was not my intention, so I tried to get that across as best I could.
    heard.

    I can appreciate that. However, I think that if you overcomplicate things for yourselves that this can make it difficult to for Ni to connect and make sense of things. Perhaps, if you can resolve things point by point and then you're juggling one less ball each time you do.

    Again, I respect that. But just as NPs must learn to commit to a perspective, FJs must learn to commit to a judgement, or nothing is decided upon. You can't play the field forever - you need to pick a path and move forward.
    you sound like my adviser.


    The thing is, it feels like (from my perspective) that we've done this over and over. It seems like there were plenty of times when your (speaking of the INFJs in this thread in general, here) Fe found some truth and then later your Ti lawyer would tear up the contract and sends everything into legal proceedings. I get this is probably part of your method of processing things but it's so baffling. From my view it's like you guys have amnesia to the previous Fe clarity and empathic grasp on things. Now you're stuck responding only to the Ti data, which is only the stuff immediately in front of your face, endlessly back and forth, which basically precludes any Ni overarching comprehension or a Fe conclusion. The same thing has happened in previous threads too. I guess you guys just can't see when this is happening.

    Anyway, I'm off to bed. I'll come back for more in the morning.
    i know it's more work, but if you can find an example, it might be clearer to me what you tangibly experience. i think people might also place a different value in consensus. fid, for example, seems to facilitate a shared kind of work more than is generally comfortable for me to do. i don't know if Fe really even draws conclusions in the way that the Ji functions do. it feels more about interpretation than about decision. as a form of acting, it's like wabi sabi, not scaffolds for a building.

    i know i am quite circular in my thinking, enough so that i have apologetics for why circular thinking is itself necessary (evidence of my being a stubborn sx type instead of being a more considerate so type). the end result is that it takes a while to get the change in reorganization down. asking for a bit more awareness of what has happened and recapping the story of what happens is one way you can assist me, personally, in staying on the same page with you. especially if you focus on how i have affected your experience, rather than focusing on what i am doing. bc i am more likely to be stubborn about these things, because in some sense, they're a part of me, they're where i begin. my intj ex remarked how funny it was that i could never really remember or even explain the plots of movies immediately afterward. instead, it was just impressions, ideas, meanings, moods.

  2. #1522

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I have to confess that when I read werebudgie's contribution last night it was a lot of negative energy to absorb. I had to go have a good cry about it.

    That feeling though that she describes ... it's not about me. It's about her. Anyone else feeling it, it's about you. My interactions with you are striking into an inner place that makes you very uncomfortable.

    I'm just a mirror. What you see in the mirror or feel about the mirror isn't about the mirror. (Well, certainly we all have our favorite mirrors!) But it's a signal, the feeling is a cue to riff around in the inner world.

    I'd enjoy exploring that inner place if anyone would like to.
    It's not worth it. You're right that whatever someone feels, it's about them and their projections and fears. Amazing how it's easier to fabricate a witch hunt to persecute those who show us our ugly side/challenge us/the status quo, than it is to face ourselves and our guilt/shame/wtv, which is exactly why they were invented for in the first place.
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  3. #1523
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    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post
    […]You're right that whatever someone feels, it's about them and their projections and fears. […]
    Not necessarily.

    Fi can wallow in martyrdom and victimhood. It can weep for one's own hurts, and it can weep for the hurts of others. It can call itself "deep" and weep crocodile tears when others aren't equally deep.

    On the other hand, Fi can also be refreshingly, delightfully, and sinfully selfish. Look at an ISFP or even an ENTJ. Fi can be balls-to-the-walls and no-nonsense, a compass pointing dead north for the explorer to follow as he shouts "Fuck all of you!" to the naysayers who counsel him to visit warmer climes.

    IOW, it's not always about the mirror and the projections and the fears. Sometimes we just don't like the other guy. Fi can be a lot of things. Sometimes it's attractive, and sometimes it's not.

    Just sayin'.

    By the way, whatever one says about Fi generally applies to Fe as well. Fe is just as changeable as Fi is; Fe can be just as likeable/unlikeable to other people as Fi is, depending on how one displays it.

  4. #1524

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    Quote Originally Posted by FLD View Post
    Not necessarily.

    Fi can wallow in martyrdom and victimhood. It can weep for one's own hurts, and it can weep for the hurts of others. It can call itself "deep" and weep crocodile tears when others aren't equally deep.

    On the other hand, Fi can also be refreshingly, delightfully, and sinfully selfish. Look at an ISFP or even an ENTJ. Fi can be balls-to-the-walls and no-nonsense, a compass pointing dead north for the explorer to follow as he shouts "Fuck all of you!" to the naysayers who counsel him to visit warmer climes.

    IOW, it's not always about the mirror and the projections and the fears. Sometimes we just don't like the other guy. Fi can be a lot of things. Sometimes it's attractive, and sometimes it's not.

    Just sayin'.

    By the way, whatever one says about Fi generally applies to Fe as well. Fe is just as changeable as Fi is; Fe can be just as likeable/unlikeable to other people as Fi is, depending on how one displays it.
    Did you quote my post mistakenly, or are simply completely misreading it?
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  5. #1525
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    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post
    Did you quote my post mistakenly, or are simply completely misreading it?
    I responded to the portion I quoted. I don't like the assertion that everything is a projection. We're not *always* reacting to projections. As Freud said: "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." There's an objective reality out there, and we're responding to that reality as well as experiencing our own fears.

  6. #1526
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    @yeghor and anyone else tracking this with the question: "Why does PeaceBaby want so badly to interact with INFJs when the fit seems so poor?" I myself see a very very strong clue to the answer in this statement (the bold and underlined parts are the crux of it):

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I'm just a mirror. What you see in the mirror or feel about the mirror isn't about the mirror. (Well, certainly we all have our favorite mirrors!) But it's a signal, the feeling is a cue to riff around in the inner world.

    I'd enjoy exploring that inner place if anyone would like to.
    For me, the key word here is "enjoy." The emotional energy in us to be enjoyed is a food source (metaphorically speaking). Somehow INFJs show up as a great possible source of this food (others may as well, but since the discussion is about PB's attraction to INFJs). That's the source of the attraction to us despite all this claimed pain and difficulty. That's what is sought.

    And behind that hunger is a void that creates the hunger in the first place. That's likely the "keep your eye on the birdie" place that we're not supposed to see.

    Note: The above is what I see and feel at that visceral gut level. It is not a definitive statement of truth, just what I perceive at this time. I strongly encourage others to assess this for yourself based on how it feels/looks to you. For INFJs, if gut feeling serves you as useful information, I'd suggest checking that gut feeling level carefully and see what perception it yields.

  7. #1527
    lurking Rasofy's Avatar
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    Stop being abstract. All of you. Thanks. Carry on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    Stop being abstract. All of you. Thanks. Carry on.
    All right, I'll spell it out. My post about attractive/unattractive Fi was a shot at PeaceBaby. She sort-of-trolls the Fe threads by playing the martyr. Apparently it arises from some dysfunction between herself and her Aux-Fe (ISFJ?) mother. Whatever. But that sort of martyr approach is not attractive or particularly honest, and IMO the INFJs are right to be turned off by it.

    By the way, the last paragraph in my post is an even-more-obscure admonition to INFJs. Some of them are so interested in massaging their INFJ image that they end up overreacting to every little nip or bite from gadflies like Mane and PB. These Fe/Fi threads go on forever in part because some INFJs seem constitutionally unable to lighten up and turn a blind eye to petty typological criticism and snarking.

    As others have pointed out: There's a lot of unnecessary hurt feelings in this thread.

  9. #1529
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    I swear by the Power Of Greyskull, I'm not trying to annoy you by quoting the heck out of you today.


    Quote Originally Posted by FLD View Post
    By the way, the last paragraph in my post is an even-more-obscure admonition to INFJs. Some of them are so interested in massaging their INFJ image that they end up overreacting to every little nip or bite from gadflies like Mane and PB. These Fe/Fi threads go on forever in part because some INFJs seem constitutionally unable to lighten up and turn a blind eye to petty typological criticism and snarking.
    I can totally see this. For one, I think there's a lot of salt to what some have said about NPs having a stronger self-concept (and being inherently more resilient to incoming feedback....and TJs just don't really care because they aren't people-oriented).

    Secondly though, I think a lot of the 'arguing' is because our attempt to listen is perceived as refusing information- when we ask nit-picky questions it's because we need certain kinks ironed out before we can really take something in as useful. I think it gets interpreted as actively trying to discredit the information. This very post, for example- I can see how it might appear like a big fat "here is how what you're saying isn't true." But if we bother sharing the instant Ni "here's what seems off about that" issues, that actually means we're working on taking it in.

    I think.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  10. #1530
    lurking Rasofy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLD View Post
    As others have pointed out: There's a lot of unnecessary hurt feelings in this thread.
    Yep.

    There's a vicious cycle going on... A makes an abstract typological claim...B provides highly personal anedoctal evidence demonstrating the opposite... A doesn't back down... B takes it personal... *shitstorm*

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