i feel like we need to use some kind of digital illustrator to articulate how the different information structures of cognitive functions move and flow, how we can grasp the shape of them in process and the quality of their pattern. to feel solidly engaged, T needs something it can objectively observe, something it can visualize. i appreciate the attempt at describing what it feels like to you.
i hear you. i admit i struggle to not get caught up in the speculative e5 explanation game when there's joint work to be done that requires more direct action. the deep underlying Ti need of inquiry, when coupled with iNtuition (and mental glulttony), is not easy for me to let go of. i get distracted really easily, and can just sit and talk with ntps about math, or dharma, or the mechanics of team-building in nba basketball for days on end.Some of it felt like dodging the issue and then turning it around in a different way. I know this is how you guys operate, but man, it can feel like someone passing cups of tea to you around the elephant in the room, whilst discussing the weather. It becomes more problematic when the whole thing is then turned around into a theoretical discussion on, "why elephants make awkward guests and why one should avoid bringing them to tea parties". Instead of just saying, "This elephant makes me uncomfortable and I don't like it because (X). Is it yours and did you bring mean to bring it? If so why? I would appreciate if you didn't in future" or whatever. The thing is all you have to say is, "I feel (Y)" or "I don't understand - what do you mean by (Z)?" because that's all you have to say to get our attention and co-operation.
i also recognize that while it's just enjoyable on the one hand, on the other, it allows me to misrecognize myself, to not own my needs and recognize that those are the beginnings for how i can non-violently communicate with and ultimately relate to others. it can be a way of focusing on what i deem right rather than truly owning what i need. this is not easy for the Fe-Ti types of the world. rightness is a big part of how we naturally operate. in its own balancing act, it requires Fe consideration for how you treat others with respect while following the way of right. at the same time, being able to find and connect with personal need, which is what i feel the Fi perspective is, offers a different way of loving yourself and loving others. it's incredibly refreshing.
can you give an example or two? if you can find something from my own posts, that would be best, because i am willing to hear that.BTW I personally wasn't immediately offended by your post, but PB was in a different mindset to me and I can see why she felt like that. I think part of the problem is that she was trying to cut through the "white-noise" and discuss the elephant (ie. get to the heart of the matter) but in response you guys kept dancing around it and convoluting the whole thing. In some cases people kept turning everything she said around and made it about her, implying she was the source of the problem (this is the result, not the intention). This is also strange because Js (especially Je dom/aux) are supposed to be the ones keeping thing moving forward with clarity and purpose, and here's some Ps (especially Je-inf) complaining about stalling, deflecting, digressing and nit-picking. I just think INFJs can delay progress by analysing stuff to death, churning out yet more unnecessary complexity and confusion like a giant fog machine. No one point can be agreed upon, so nothing moves forward. And when it's used in discussion which it places your type in a negative light, it starts to look like a conscious effort to make things go around in circles, distancing it further from yourself each time round. I'm increasingly starting to see it as your denial function.
I realise that sounds harsh, but I don't know how to put it lightly without adding more obscurity. I do honestly believe you mean well and think you have a lot of valuable things to say.
for me, it just comes down to finding balanced perspective. i want to show you the advantages and disadvantages. the strengths and not just own the weaknesses. i want to feel that i am appreciated for who i am and that all strengths and specializations offer trade-offs (and this is where Te drives me fucking mad! because i don't feel heard); nothing can be perfect or complete, as much as my ego wishes i could be, when it can find no freedom from giving up itself so that it can receive from others more freely. i recognize too that this is partly my own shame mechanism in action. the other is the maybe higher level of formality, of identified with the overtly expressed, than an Fi type needs. you can see it all over this thread. as infj, i want you to tell me what you heard. that is a big part of how i feel connected to you, and how i navigate my own sense of the relationship.
and as an e5, that balanced perspective that i am always searching for and resting on is addicted to being comprehensive. meanwhile, a Te critique is generally more about the moment and more about setting forth a claim with immediate provability. it's difficult for me to give up the holism of Fe for that, my sense of what is beautiful and what is ecological. Te without the rich infp context you bring to it doesn't really connect for me unless you can share the context even more than the judgment.
heard.Thanks? I know it's rather clumsy but I have made mistakes before in not establishing goodwill beforehand. I also can be unconsciously insensitive because I naturally tend to skip disclaimers and framing devices, even explanations, as I think these are implied and obvious. I realise other people need these things, so I need to try to harder (especially in writing, because gestures and tone can function as framing devices themselves). I knew what I was about to say was potentially offensive and that was not my intention, so I tried to get that across as best I could.
you sound like my adviser.I can appreciate that. However, I think that if you overcomplicate things for yourselves that this can make it difficult to for Ni to connect and make sense of things. Perhaps, if you can resolve things point by point and then you're juggling one less ball each time you do.
Again, I respect that. But just as NPs must learn to commit to a perspective, FJs must learn to commit to a judgement, or nothing is decided upon. You can't play the field forever - you need to pick a path and move forward.
i know it's more work, but if you can find an example, it might be clearer to me what you tangibly experience. i think people might also place a different value in consensus. fid, for example, seems to facilitate a shared kind of work more than is generally comfortable for me to do. i don't know if Fe really even draws conclusions in the way that the Ji functions do. it feels more about interpretation than about decision. as a form of acting, it's like wabi sabi, not scaffolds for a building.The thing is, it feels like (from my perspective) that we've done this over and over. It seems like there were plenty of times when your (speaking of the INFJs in this thread in general, here) Fe found some truth and then later your Ti lawyer would tear up the contract and sends everything into legal proceedings. I get this is probably part of your method of processing things but it's so baffling. From my view it's like you guys have amnesia to the previous Fe clarity and empathic grasp on things. Now you're stuck responding only to the Ti data, which is only the stuff immediately in front of your face, endlessly back and forth, which basically precludes any Ni overarching comprehension or a Fe conclusion. The same thing has happened in previous threads too. I guess you guys just can't see when this is happening.
Anyway, I'm off to bed. I'll come back for more in the morning.
i know i am quite circular in my thinking, enough so that i have apologetics for why circular thinking is itself necessary (evidence of my being a stubborn sx type instead of being a more considerate so type). the end result is that it takes a while to get the change in reorganization down. asking for a bit more awareness of what has happened and recapping the story of what happens is one way you can assist me, personally, in staying on the same page with you. especially if you focus on how i have affected your experience, rather than focusing on what i am doing. bc i am more likely to be stubborn about these things, because in some sense, they're a part of me, they're where i begin. my intj ex remarked how funny it was that i could never really remember or even explain the plots of movies immediately afterward. instead, it was just impressions, ideas, meanings, moods.