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  1. #1511


    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    @fidelia, I do know your past history, but the way you stated it implied that a large amount of people have issues with PB, when in reality it's probably only...I can think of 4 or 5 offhand. I'm sure each of us on this forum could find the same amount of people who have issues with us, so saying it the way you did was bordering on slander, imo. So, I also find it odd that you felt it would be constructive to imply that many people had issues with PB.
    OK I do not want this to turn into bashing you @PeaceBaby but...

    4-5 (all?) of the INFJs who have been active in this thread...Not in any order of preferance: @Z Buck McFate, @fidelia, @Werebudgie, @the state i am in, me, any others do pick up something off? Maybe not @March?

    People, do interrupt if I am wrong but all these people are sensing something peculiar when interacting with you @PeaceBaby...we can't shake it off..I am not saying this to insult or insinuate you...This is a feeling I can't shake off...

    I do not get this feeling with most other posters in the thread...

    @Eilonwy ; I prefer to mention all this^ in a straightforward fashion cause that issue is an integral part of this thread...I do not want to carry it into private talk or behind closed doors...This has to be sorted out in the open...

    This is not an ultimatum or an attempt to dominate you @PeaceBaby...This is an attempt to straighten things out...before conversations break off entirely...It doesn't imply that you cannot participate in the thread or you are a bad person...It means I am losing my enthusiasm to respond back...

    All I ask is to you not hold back anything, be as straightforward as possible, even if it means being insulting in the process...insulting is better than witholding IMO...Just share your story please...

    All the best

  2. #1512


    Quote Originally Posted by Winds of Thor View Post
    Yeah, seems like delusion stemming from pride or something.

    There are so many details and descriptions being attempted and you people need to know that spelling everything out has its limits.
    Based on a few of your posts in this thread I feel that you are irritated by something INFJs have been doing in the thread...

    I'd like to hear about what that is precisely and whether that has any anchor point for you IRL beyond this thread?

    By the way based on the type you declare in your tag, doesn't you mentioning "limits" on what can be voiced out or not sound like an irony?

  3. #1513
    I want my account deleted
    Join Date
    Jan 2014


    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    4-5 (all?) of the INFJs who have been active in this thread...Not in any order of preferance: @Z Buck McFate, @fidelia, @Werebudgie, @the state i am in, me, any others do pick up something off? Maybe not @March?
    Just want to mention again and (if it makes sense to you) add my INFP partner, who isn't a member of this board (internet forums aren't her thing) but has been interested in this discussion. To be clear, she and I don't always agree on things and even when we do, it's often not as clear to us that we agree as it is in this case. And she is, without a doubt, strong minded and of her own mind, as a matter of definition. But - she too picked up on something "off" when I began describing my initial PM discussions with PeaceBaby when PB initiated a PM discussion with me. In fact, my partner picked up on this before it was in my conscious mind. So.... if it's possible to add someone who isn't a member of this board to that list, and an INFP at that, I would ask that she be included in the data, as an observer coming from a different vantage point (an INFP who isn't a member of this forum). A significant chunk of this comment was from her.

    Though I will most certainly understand if this list is using criteria that wouldn't usefully include her (INFJs, members of this forum, INFJs who are members of this forum, etc)

  4. #1514


    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post

    ^This makes me even more suspicious that you are an actually an INFP...
    I now think I had been mistaken when concluding that you were Fi user Eilonwy...sorry about that...

    You are, in your last couple posts, focusing predominantly on "proper etiquette of socially interacting" with other users in the thread...particularly regarding @fidelia 's posts to @PeaceBaby...

    I think you are a Fe-dom...I do not think you have strong Ti...I guess that may also mean you have Ne-inf, which may be serving as a common ground/language with INFPs here rather than your (non-existent) Fi that I mistook you to have...

    This is not aimed to ridicule/humiliate you...It doesn't make your comments invalid or in vain either...I think you would've preferred if I've told this in private but I think it would seriously help to make sense of what's going on in the thread if you gave the possibility that you may not actually be an INFJ a serious thought and re-evaluation...

    Specifically because you've been prescribing (your) self-discovery/enlightenment onto INFJs on presumption that you are also an INFJ...but I am failing to draw a parallel to myself in your comments...

    Can you identify with what INFJs here have been telling regarding doorslams and their personal difficulties with other people IRL? Who's the next INFJ in the thread that you most identify with?

    This does not mean that being an INFJ is a rare privilege reserved for only certain elite people, or that you are not elite enough...It simply means you may be coming forward from an incorrect baseline...and that your prescriptions (that have proved to help you improve yourself) may not suitable for other INFJs here...

    OTOH, I think you would have an enormous amount of insight into the strengths and weaknesses of the Fe function...and may most probably relate those insights to the doorslam process...perhaps you've already done so in your blog you mentioned in your PM?

    All the best...
    Last edited by yeghor; 02-02-2014 at 11:08 AM. Reason: Blue added+Red added

  5. #1515
    can't handcuff the wind Doomsday McFeral's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    5w4 sx/sp


    I do not want to say anything bad about PB. There are things that seem incompatible, and that's why I avoid interacting with her. There are a few people here and there I avoid interaction with. That's life.

    I do agree with something others have already hit on- it seems to me like it's okay to not like a certain 'type', or to acknowledge that a certain 'type' makes me prickly and may not be worth the effort. If someone doesn't like INFJs, why not just avoid INFJs? I don't understand getting in someone's face to incessantly explain why you think they should be different/what you think is wrong about them when it's totally available to not put yourself through the 'grief' of interacting with them. And that's all I'm going to say. I stopped reading the posts: problem solved.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  6. #1516


    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Perhaps this analogy may help: There's background radiation and radio waves in our everyday environment that we cannot sense/perceive...Consider Ni as a receiver/detector tuned to pick up on that data (layer)...

    Or a more metaphorical analogy would be Ni is gazing into the spirit realm...Is that analogous to the Ni layer that you were describing @Werebudgie ?

    I think some of us have been conditioned to disown our Ni landscape/perception...I think I've been invalidated in that regard by my sensor parents while growing up, which has caused me to second-guess if what I've picked up thru Ni is really there or not...

    I wonder how I'd have turned out if my Ni perceptions had actually been supported/reinforced/validated by my parents (i.e. if I had N-dom aux parents)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I think one my coworkers is an ISFP...My main mode of establishing bond and rapport with other people is offering them practical help (Fe?) when I sense that they are distressed somehow...With this coworker, that has proved to trigger a resistance in her as if she was trying to retain/maintain her independence/autonomy...She may also have seen me not reliable enough yet...

    So whenever I see her in distress now, I just ask her if there's anything I can help with or just drop a suggestion that I think may prove to be helpful and leave her alone to think on it herself...?

    I may become more assertive/insistent if my job description, jurisdiction or responsibilities somehow create an overlap with hers that allow/dictate me to interfere...otherwise it's entirely up to her to make up her own mind...
    Last edited by yeghor; 02-02-2014 at 11:15 AM. Reason: Blue added

  7. #1517
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    4w5 so/sp


    Still trying to catch up. I'm being fair and responding to the oldest first.

    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    how would i go about doing this in a way that felt right to you? could you give an example or two? what do you experience when you empathize with her, and what that i have written most triggers the difficult reactions?
    At the risk of sounding evasive, I don't know; I can't really do that. It's so difficult to describe that sort of thing. As it has been said before, INFPs often react to things in "feeling tones", which are some of the most intangible concepts in existence. I suppose what happened was that I picked up a vibe, and then I saw PB reacting in a way that I grasped with familiarity, and I connected the two naturally. When I talked about empathising strongly with her, I mean that I felt that I felt her feelings so keenly as if they were channelled through me. I could feel all the unsaid things behind what she said so clearly - I could hear her inner voice.* Now I'm sure I got some details wrong, but the underlying elements I'm believe were fairly accurate.

    It's hard to point out specifics of what causes problems because it's so subtle and so connected to many other subtle elements through Ne, that it's almost pointless to describe that stuff. Even PB responded to the thing as a whole rather than go through line by line.

    I apologise for being difficult and vague.

    *This is all very wanky and ridiculous to write down BTW. I feel like an idiot. That's part of the reason why INFPs don't bother explaining that stuff - it just sounds like silly nonsense.

    in the meantime, could you explain how you see something as underhanded? is it a lack of request for specific behaviors (Te) and more of a focus on attitude (Fe) that feels controlling and condescending to you? is it that the attitude that we try to bring to the conversation doesn't really connect to her experience, so it doesn't feel like the attempt to balance our message that we are making is worth anything to you bc it is simply unnecessary?
    Some of it felt like dodging the issue and then turning it around in a different way. I know this is how you guys operate, but man, it can feel like someone passing cups of tea to you around the elephant in the room, whilst discussing the weather. It becomes more problematic when the whole thing is then turned around into a theoretical discussion on, "why elephants make awkward guests and why one should avoid bringing them to tea parties". Instead of just saying, "This elephant makes me uncomfortable and I don't like it because (X). Is it yours and did you bring mean to bring it? If so why? I would appreciate if you didn't in future" or whatever. The thing is all you have to say is, "I feel (Y)" or "I don't understand - what do you mean by (Z)?" because that's all you have to say to get our attention and co-operation.

    BTW I personally wasn't immediately offended by your post, but PB was in a different mindset to me and I can see why she felt like that. I think part of the problem is that she was trying to cut through the "white-noise" and discuss the elephant (ie. get to the heart of the matter) but in response you guys kept dancing around it and convoluting the whole thing. In some cases people kept turning everything she said around and made it about her, implying she was the source of the problem (this is the result, not the intention). This is also strange because Js (especially Je dom/aux) are supposed to be the ones keeping thing moving forward with clarity and purpose, and here's some Ps (especially Je-inf) complaining about stalling, deflecting, digressing and nit-picking. I just think INFJs can delay progress by analysing stuff to death, churning out yet more unnecessary complexity and confusion like a giant fog machine. No one point can be agreed upon, so nothing moves forward. And when it's used in discussion which it places your type in a negative light, it starts to look like a conscious effort to make things go around in circles, distancing it further from yourself each time round. I'm increasingly starting to see it as your denial function.

    I realise that sounds harsh, but I don't know how to put it lightly without adding more obscurity. I do honestly believe you mean well and think you have a lot of valuable things to say.

    i don't know if i need this disclaimer or not, but i see that you are obviously trying. i think it's the way you follow through with it that is most helpful. you are owning your emotions and sharing them, which is disarming, grounding us in relationship rather than in ideas.
    Thanks? I know it's rather clumsy but I have made mistakes before in not establishing goodwill beforehand. I also can be unconsciously insensitive because I naturally tend to skip disclaimers and framing devices, even explanations, as I think these are implied and obvious. I realise other people need these things, so I need to try to harder (especially in writing, because gestures and tone can function as framing devices themselves). I knew what I was about to say was potentially offensive and that was not my intention, so I tried to get that across as best I could.

    I can appreciate that. However, I think that if you overcomplicate things for yourselves that this can make it difficult to for Ni to connect and make sense of things. Perhaps, if you can resolve things point by point and then you're juggling one less ball each time you do.

    Again, I respect that. But just as NPs must learn to commit to a perspective, FJs must learn to commit to a judgement, or nothing is decided upon. You can't play the field forever - you need to pick a path and move forward.

    The thing is, it feels like (from my perspective) that we've done this over and over. It seems like there were plenty of times when your (speaking of the INFJs in this thread in general, here) Fe found some truth and then later your Ti lawyer would tear up the contract and sends everything into legal proceedings. I get this is probably part of your method of processing things but it's so baffling. From my view it's like you guys have amnesia to the previous Fe clarity and empathic grasp on things. Now you're stuck responding only to the Ti data, which is only the stuff immediately in front of your face, endlessly back and forth, which basically precludes any Ni overarching comprehension or a Fe conclusion. The same thing has happened in previous threads too. I guess you guys just can't see when this is happening.

    Anyway, I'm off to bed. I'll come back for more in the morning.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  8. #1518
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    937 so/sx


    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    That said, I genuinely like her and for the most part enjoy being around her. You, on the other hand, feel icky to me at the gut-visceral level. This icky feeling in me is not the same as INFJ/INFP cognitive function tensions. I've interacted with other INFPs as well and felt the cognitive function tensions. It's not the same thing as how I feel you. There's something about you in particular, as an individual, not sourced to INFP/INFJ cognitive function differences and tensions that repels me at a visceral level.
    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    OK I do not want this to turn into bashing you PeaceBaby but...

    People, do interrupt if I am wrong but all these people are sensing something peculiar when interacting with you PeaceBaby...we can't shake it off..I am not saying this to insult or insinuate you...This is a feeling I can't shake off...
    I have to confess that when I read werebudgie's contribution last night it was a lot of negative energy to absorb. I had to go have a good cry about it.

    That feeling though that she describes ... it's not about me. It's about her. Anyone else feeling it, it's about you. My interactions with you are striking into an inner place that makes you very uncomfortable.

    I'm just a mirror. What you see in the mirror or feel about the mirror isn't about the mirror. (Well, certainly we all have our favorite mirrors!) But it's a signal, the feeling is a cue to riff around in the inner world.

    I'd enjoy exploring that inner place if anyone would like to.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt

    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  9. #1519


    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I am sorry all that caused a hurt in you but as you also mention in your quote above, sometimes that hurt may actually be pointing towards a wound that you have not been aware of before...

    I am wondering what's behind the mirror rather than the image in the mirror...

    And the ball is in your court now...Please do not pass it back to the other side...

  10. #1520
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Feb 2009
    5w4 sx/sp


    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    I wonder if the whole "INFJ doorslam" issue only exists because people appreciate the presence of particular people in their lives so much that jars them when that person exercises their common right to privacy and silence. Is contempt for INFJs a consequence of idealizing them?
    i don't know if it is because of value, or because in close relationships we seem to go so far until it is over (and part of this also might be the e4 --> e2 stress point, where we lose ourselves and struggle feeling stuck in our identification with the other person, projecting all the while). i don't really see any clear instances of "doorslamming" in my past, i mean, i have breakups, and i'd tend to avoid certain people, but never have i just cut ties on a close relationship. i'd avoid explaining, at times, that the relationship wasn't for me what it was for the other person, and i do regret not being more straightforward or being more willing and more committed to finding an effective way to communicate that. i admit that part of it was my own unwillingness to be the bad guy, even if it was just in someone else's eyes. oftentimes, i didn't grasp my own needs, so i couldn't really do so in a non-violent way where i could both accept and respect us both, and allow that to be enough, with no quasi-absolute perspective to feel like i needed to orient towards. i may struggle to see and empathize with the other person through a major change in how i view a relationship. i knew an infj girl who i was friends with who, when she had found out that i had dated another girl in our class when we were friends in undergrad, seemed hurt and wouldn't really engage me after the fact. i think the unwillingness to even allow for explanations might be an Fe thing (i can imagine enfjs and entps, especially 3w4s who come to mind; more reason why to me it's part of the e4 disconnect ability). but the demand to control the explanation of what happened when we are hurt, when dammnit we need to come first, is not.

    i do wonder too, because i'm relating to your posts a lot in this thread, whether you feel that some of the doorslam thing is in part an e4 phenomenon? one of my best friends is an infp 4w5 so/sx. he's told me stories about cutting ties, telling people off and distrusting them. i think he tells me this because i just get where it comes from, i too know what it's like (at least for the most part). it to me feels like something we can genuinely share. like the experience that we have to choose ourselves, because our shaming is piling up so fast we have to abandon one of us. i can't feel this way about myself any more, and i'm so angry that i do. the breaking point thing seems to be about the ability to suddenly disconnect from others. this feels vintage e4 to me.

    as i've tried to say elsewhere, it might be a bit different in terms for an infj in that they may struggle even more so to feel in touch with their own needs. maybe we stay polite on the outer surface more. maybe we do not trust ourselves to be able to manage our own boundaries or trust ourselves to be able to say no. maybe we struggle to find the resources to know ourselves in a way that we can communicate effectively not just about what is happening but in terms of where we are at. that's a crucial difference.

    what was your doorslam experience? from your description of the way you feel like you converse with infjs (the testing each other thing, which i know too, and i too know how it feels when it's overcome by trust), it's easier for me to trust how you represent the situation with the picture of your experience you paint. i did at least go into avoidance mode with one infp, a 4w5 so/sx. we both felt super distrustful of each other's motives, but at the same time, we had a lot to talk about. i think in that case our respective self-esteem issues conflicted. for me, there was some boundary violation and insinuation that made me feel uncomfortable. i kind of felt like i was a story he was researching for a writing project. like, when you respond, and theyre already in the middle of elaborating their next question to characterize you, and you're just exhausted by the feeling that something is being taken from you. and you don't even get to speak for yourself, directly. to be fair, i kinda think i get where he was coming from, but to offer to get to the center of that whirling blades machine was not feasible for me. i had my own shit to deal with that i wasn't doing very well with. and i think i did believe in the possibility of being direct with each other (and this difficulty being direct with each other, maybe more than anything, can be a frustration in the infj/infp dynamic).

    eta: at least now, i'm starting to recognize that this quasi-absolute perspective to orient towards has to do with what i want to contribute to the world, what i believe in, and not what is inherently "right." it's not easy both grounding yourself and letting go of the foundationalist quality of belief at the same time. i think recognizing that there's more ways of being present in the situation is a good start.

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