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Thread: When an INFJ doorslams you / cuts you out of their life / breaks off contact

  1. #1501
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    I wonder if the whole "INFJ doorslam" issue only exists because people appreciate the presence of particular people in their lives so much that jars them when that person exercises their common right to privacy and silence. Is contempt for INFJs a consequence of idealizing them?

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    ✿ڿڰۣஇღ♥ wut ♥ღஇڿڰۣ✿ Array digesthisickness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    In general, I think you would probably wind up regretting a decision that was made purely on the basis of information you've gotten from this thread, unless it only concerned the members who've posted.
    Oh, I know. I wouldn't do anything based solely on one thread, but did hope to find what could be called "expert" thoughts and opinions and mostly EXAMPLES of the thought processes in order to add and perhaps incorporate helpful things into my own life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    The discrepancies here would probably resolve or change if we all met and discussed matters, but even in that environment, we would eventually run into issues with stubbornness. Egos are invested in typology unless you've abstracted it to death, but at that point, people lose interest because it no longer really relate to "self-discovery", so much as it would relate to a seemingly inconsequential playground of theory.
    Ha! When you got to the bolded, I thought, "oh, now THAT I could get in to." I see your point though, and it's a good one. Plus, there's no guarantee that anyone is speaking the absolute truth either in real life or text.

    -------------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    Concerning Ne vs Ni and the potential lack of understanding between INFPs and INFJs - an example to illustrate my point about how Ne requires more externally based information than Ni: I know an Ni dom who regularly plays guessing games with me, and during our playful conversations in which we inquire each other about our respective personal lives, a sharp difference between our psychological makeup becomes apparent.

    I ask him questions, relay information, and probe indirectly by taking guesses. I try to use deduction to whittle away possibilities, but then more possibilities could be inferred from the remaining possibilities. While I often attempt to deduce, my deductions frequently seem to lead further and further away from the truth - especially if he slowly piecemeals information without being straightforward. You could say, from a cynical but not inaccurate POV, that I dig my own grave - in part because I want information from an objectively verifiable source, but also in part because I refuse to just settle on a conclusion. More often than not, I actually stumble on the truth, but keep walking because I'm seeking a personal connection more than information. I think this is directly related to Ne, seeing as Ne probes for information by informing in turn, and always requires a bit of empirical evidence before judgments find closure.

    On the other hand, my friend contemplates without attempting to catalyze responses from me. He mulls what he has around and infers what he wants. Often, his conclusions, while accurate, are vague and would better be taken with a grain of salt; however, seeing as I, as an Ne user, expect there to be some sort of verifiable remnant of information, I can fall victim to the Forer effect, taking things more personally than need be. If he and I were not on good terms, I could easily misinterpret his statements as indirect insults, and assume that he gaslights me during these games. But we appreciate our differences and recognize, through mutual respect, that we're equally responsible for what comes of our interactions.
    This is such a good observation. So much of this thread is based on information gathering, so how it's obtained, how much, and what's done with it is naturally going to have to be taken into account.

    From the outside looking in though, it's hard not to think that it's possible to care too much. Something my T has been saying to me forever. I mean if 'experts' have a hard time, then having a hard time sometimes may just be inevitable no matter how much you do or don't care.
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    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    @Eilonwy- no, I'm referring to the INFJs who frequent these threads, particularly the several that have addressed her directly. While you may feel I have blindspots that I'm not aware of (and I'd be the first to say I do), I'd also like you to look at my past history here before leaping to conclusions. My attitudes and behaviour towards others has been fairly consistent. I have not had a history of intentionally bullying others, nor of speaking for the entire forum. I find it odd that you feel it would be constructive to imply that.

    At this point, it appears that this tangent is not going anywhere positive and I have no wish to make anyone feel upset or disillusioned, so I think I'll just observe for a bit.

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    Implying that fidelia would bully someone is like implying that the Snuggle Fabric Softener Bear would kick a puppy.

  5. #1505
    Vulnerability Array Eilonwy's Avatar
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    @fidelia, I do know your past history, but the way you stated it implied that a large amount of people have issues with PB, when in reality it's probably only...I can think of 4 or 5 offhand. I'm sure each of us on this forum could find the same amount of people who have issues with us, so saying it the way you did was bordering on slander, imo. So, I also find it odd that you felt it would be constructive to imply that many people had issues with PB.
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  6. #1506
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    Quote Originally Posted by digesthisickness View Post
    Oh, I know. I wouldn't do anything based solely on one thread, but did hope to find what could be called "expert" thoughts and opinions and mostly EXAMPLES of the thought processes in order to add and perhaps incorporate helpful things into my own life.
    That could help.



    Ha! When you got to the bolded, I thought, "oh, now THAT I could get in to." I see your point though, and it's a good one. Plus, there's no guarantee that anyone is speaking the absolute truth either in real life or text.
    I could (and do) get into it too!




    This is such a good observation. So much of this thread is based on information gathering, so how it's obtained, how much, and what's done with it is naturally going to have to be taken into account.

    From the outside looking in though, it's hard not to think that it's possible to care too much. Something my T has been saying to me forever. I mean if 'experts' have a hard time, then having a hard time sometimes may just be inevitable no matter how much you do or don't care.
    Apathy can definitely be healthy.

  7. #1507
    Away with the fairies Array Southern Kross's Avatar
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    OK, I have to catch up here.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    Thanks to you both for your patient and sympathetic explanations of this. I appreciate it and it helps me to understand it a little better. So it's Fe spit-balling and I'm reading it like conclusions, right? I guess the thing is, it bothers me more in some posters than others (and the rest of you only at certain times). I think some of you must be better at communicating the fact that this is still Judgement-in-progress than others, and without that, it makes it harder for me to pick it up.

    Also that Fe to Ti progression in reasoning can occasionally seem a bit like this from the outside:

    Fe: "That sounds reasonable. I understand why you feel like that. Let's be friends!"
    Ti: "Wait, what are you doing?! I'm not agreeing to that! I'm ready for a fight! Give no quarter!"

    This is so bewildering to me. It's like we get on the same wave length and I think we're getting along fine, and then shortly after it's almost like you guys want to restart the argument. Does that make sense in Fe terms? I'm OK with you wanting to spend more time figuring things out, but I just struggle with comprehending how we can get so far down a certain path and then suddenly we're back at square one. On the receiving end, it can feel a bit like personal rejection followed by a sudden return to an adversarial position. I do want to be able to help you guys to process things in the way you feel most comfortable with, but I need to know where we are and if we're still OK.

    But honestly, I don't know how much of this is my fault (as a Fi-Te user) for not picking this stuff up and being offended, and how much is down to poor communication from you guys.

    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    This is like la-la land, crazy-weird to me, but it is fascinating. The metaphor of layered landscape helps but it's something so totally different to me that I don't think it entirely translates.

    One thing it is making me think of are the different, interconnected levels of reality in The Matrix and Inception - as well as the strange seepage between the worlds and the deceptiveness of the immediate reality. Do you think these relate well to the concept of Ni or are they different? If so, how does that work?

    But really, my own primary point of connectedness into the larger web is via my Ni landscape. That hasn't changed. So .... Se as part of Ni-Se: it's like coming into contact with a long lost but obviously related relative from another branch of the same family - someone who's both wonderfully similar at the core, but different in the specifics. Love and recognition and "this is one of my relations" ... but not at that most intimate level of interconnectedness that I experience in my Ni landscape.
    A INFJ musician I like (well, I'm pretty sure he's a xNFJ, anyway) said that when he writes songs, it feels like remembering a tune he hasn't heard yet. I really like that idea and I think is really revealing. It helps me to make sense of Ni through a Si approximation. Do you relate to this?

    I appreciate the explanation!

    I talked with my INFP partner about this INFP integration of Te. She said that integrating Te as a standard part of her process doesn't appeal to her because it loses quickness of response, and for other reasons I probably can't adequately describe in translation. I didn't get a bad visceral sense when we discussed it.
    Yes, she's right. It does slow things down and it feels a bit ungainly to start with. But over time you develop a little short-hand list of Te axioms in you head, which you can access more quickly.

    How old is your partner? Perhaps she hasn't got her head around this fully yet.

    And about Ne - it's my favorite function in my partner. I do have some difficulty with it (the Ne "throwing out possibilities" versus Ni "explore in depth" thing). But in terms of visceral/gut level feel - my partner's Ne is, for me, mostly associated with a bouncy sunny part of her that for the most part I instinctively adore. I have more difficulty with Fi than with Ne in her. Her Fi seems more self-protective in some ways, while her Ne has a more expansive and joyful at the visceral feel level of my perception.
    To me they go together like this:

    Fi: Hmm, I could really go for some ice cream right now, but what kind...
    Ne: Yay! Me too! Here, I just bought ten different flavours because I wasn't sure which one you wanted. Let's eat!

    I appreciate the metaphor a lot as description! I'm thinking about this, but don't yet know if I have anything to say or ask on it.
    Well let me ask some questions. Does the Ni side fit with your experience of it? If so, are you very conscious of doing this or does it just happen? Do you feel the 'revelation' as much as the other person? Does this analogy help for you to understand the NFP reaction to it and why they may be resistant? Does it help you to see Ni from the Si-user's perspective and why it seems so unintuitive to us? Does it give you ideas about how to get around these problems in future?

    Trust. Trust seems to be key in some way.
    Pretty much, but "trust" in the broadest sense. It can be about a need for assurance (and re-assurance), confidence, faith, reliability, and/or intimacy.

    Is the person in the metaphorical plane dialogue basically forcing the issue? It seems very forceful to me - not only telling you, but unilaterally doing stuff that you object to based on something you don't see. Would that be an example of forcing, in your view?
    Yes, they are forcing it. I would say it is an example of an ideal outcome rather than the normal way of things. Earlier I mentioned how comforting it can be to rest on the Ni perception and let them take over. It's also scary as hell, if not insulting, to have that perception put upon you if you don't feel that "trust" has been earned.

    With the plane scenario, I was partly trying to convey the confidence and certainty of the INxJ appears to the other person, and how that doesn't seem to have any apparent foundation. Of course there is foundation, but it's just not perceptible to them. So the Ni user has to establish or provide some foundation to help the other person accept their perspective. If a "trust" hasn't been established beforehand (eg. through a close relationship), or if it is a complex situation that requires more sensitivity, this might involve gently guiding their perception of the factors (ie. of the storm and the configuration of the plane) bit by bit and allowing them the freedom to take it in and process it. You might look at the sky and see storm clouds, but the other person may not recognise storm clouds when they see them, and may need to have them pointed out and explained. However, you have to be very careful with taking over, because it basically implies that the other person is ignorant of the factors, and there can be arrogance in that assumption. Perhaps the other person recognises the factors and is dealing with them in their own preferred way, and you taking over is denying them the option to choose their own path.

    I imagine this is the equivalent to what you were saying about INFPs being condescending about Judgements. We have to accept that there can be another option and that people are free to choose it.

    It sounds to me like he was able to tap into your shared Te. Does that seem accurate?
    I think he tapped into my Judging functions more generally. He presented factors and let me process them (ie. evaluate them) through Fi-Te. Going back to the cake batter analogy: you give me the ingredients but I want to mix them my own way. And maybe the batter will result in a cake or maybe it will make a loaf of bread. Some guidance is welcome (eg. reminding me when I've left out an ingredient, querying certain methods of combining things, or telling me when it's burning), but, in most cases, I don't respond well to being instructed on what to make and how to make it.
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    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    Hey Southern Kross,

    I'm not sure if we have the same thing in mind or not, but I'm going to throw a hypothesis out there and you can tell me what it looks like from your vantage point.

    I'm wondering if Fe tends to look for agreeable, common ground to establish relationship and goodwill and then moves towards areas of difference as the relationship or discussion progresses, while Fi Te goes at it from the opposite: disagreement to common ground.

    I find disagreement much less jarring and personal feeling once I have established some history with the other person and have more context to know where they are coming from. Disagreement from a stranger or an acquaintance feels more unsettling because there is no context to interpret it with. I actually am unlikely to express disagreement with someone unless there is a very compelling reason, or if I have enough history with the person that I think they'll know where I'm coming from and our relationship can take it. It's a compliment of sorts to trust someone with the weight of the potentially negative.

    I'm wondering whether Fi Te sees disagreement moving towards agreement as a more workable model. Does that ring true for you, or no?

    I have some ideas that I know would not go over well with some people on the forum. I am not ashamed of them, but neither do I feel it is useful to draw attention to our differences first, before they know where I am coming from and I have enough background information to know their views and better make sense of why we've arrived at very different conclusions.

    How do you feel about that sort of thing?

  9. #1509
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Also that Fe to Ti progression in reasoning can occasionally seem a bit like this from the outside:

    Fe: "That sounds reasonable. I understand why you feel like that. Let's be friends!"
    Ti: "Wait, what are you doing?! I'm not agreeing to that! I'm ready for a fight! Give no quarter!"
    I can totally see that you would experience it that way. Totally.

    This is so bewildering to me. It's like we get on the same wave lengtfh and I think we're getting along fine, and then shortly after it's almost like you guys want to restart the argument. Does that make sense in Fe terms? I'm OK with you wanting to spend more time figuring things out, but I just struggle with comprehending how we can get so far down a certain path and then suddenly we're back at square one. On the receiving end, it can feel a bit like personal rejection followed by a sudden return to an adversarial position. I do want to be able to help you guys to process things in the way you feel most comfortable with, but I need to know where we are and if we're still OK.
    I can really see how it would be bewildering and be as you describe above.

    But honestly, I don't know how much of this is my fault (as a Fi-Te user) for not picking this stuff up and being offended, and how much is down to poor communication from you guys.
    I really feel that a major key for me is centering in and trusting my own Ni-Se perception as much as possible - rather than allowing Fe-aux to initially stream external material into me as automatically legitimate in the first place. As I mentioned in some other comment recently, in me Ni-Se lies underneath consciousness and in my case often calls for action before conscious comprehension, with conscious comprehension coming later. If I trusted my perception more deeply, my initial action/interaction could be in line that perception much more quickly, I wouldn't have to go through the arduous Fe-Ti process to get back to that perception. I suspect that in that state, I wouldn't give off that initial sense of agreement as I tried to figure it all out consciously/analytically.

    So I think that me moving further and further into trusting my Ni-Se perception would benefit anyone who has to deal with the pattern you find so bewildering etc and also benefit me (of course. So for me, it's back to my perspective that at this point in my life, I really want and need my personal connections to be with people who can support me in trusting my Ni-Se perception.

    The question I'm working on now is: precisely what would it mean for someone to "support me in trusting my Ni-Se perception"? What do I mean by that, what is that and isn't that, in real terms? I don't have clear answers yet but it's something I'm really attending to and asking myself these days, and I'm heading toward clarity on it.

    This is like la-la land, crazy-weird to me, but it is fascinating. The metaphor of layered landscape helps but it's something so totally different to me that I don't think it entirely translates.

    One thing it is making me think of are the different, interconnected levels of reality in The Matrix and Inception - as well as the strange seepage between the worlds and the deceptiveness of the immediate reality. Do you think these relate well to the concept of Ni or are they different? If so, how does that work?
    I don't know Inception. I'm wary about the Matrix as a way to talk about it because I feel like there's so much other theory/philosophy/ideology packed into that story, so much cultural symbolism and stuff about superiority and "the one" and tons of other stuff, that I worry it would blur things up in some ways I wouldn't be able to articulate without a painstaking analysis process that I don't have energy for now (if ever). Frustrating, but this is how my mind works.

    I wonder if at some levels, it's something that just won't translate. I wonder if my description of the landscape discussion I had with my INFP partner might be of any use - not so much to translate my reality, but to get at some differences between Fi and Ni in relation to landscapes:

    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    A INFJ musician I like (well, I'm pretty sure he's a xNFJ, anyway) said that when he writes songs, it feels like remembering a tune he hasn't heard yet. I really like that idea and I think is really revealing. It helps me to make sense of Ni through a Si approximation. Do you relate to this?
    Well, the one word I would quibble with is remembering (so this may get in the way of the Si-based understanding). I write music also, and for me it's more like finding the tune and lyrics than remembering. However! That said ... removing any assumption of linear time (and linear time is not the primary mode of time in my Ni landscape), it could be the same thing. Remembering is the same as finding if time is a coordinate in the landscape. And I bet that really helped with the translation (not). Sorry!

    Yes, she's right. It does slow things down and it feels a bit ungainly to start with. But over time you develop a little short-hand list of Te axioms in you head, which you can access more quickly.

    How old is your partner? Perhaps she hasn't got her head around this fully yet.
    How old are you? She's in her 40s, as am I. When she spoke about it, it felt to me like a carefully considered choice on her part rather than a lack of development. But who knows what will emerge for her or for me in our respective centering trajectories.

    To me they go together like this:

    Fi: Hmm, I could really go for some ice cream right now, but what kind...
    Ne: Yay! Me too! Here, I just bought ten different flavours because I wasn't sure which one you wanted. Let's eat!
    Interesting. I still feel like I don't get it because I read that and all I can think is OMFG NE IS SO FREAKING ADORABLE! *hug hug hug* My response is clearly not helpful to analytical understanding.

    Well let me ask some questions. Does the Ni side fit with your experience of it?
    Do you mean

    1. Me as Ni/the INxJ in that scenario? Or

    2. My experience with Ni in myself?

    The answer to both is no.

    I'll assume for now it's the first one (correct me if I'm wrong and I'll address the second one next time around).

    I found the InxJ/Ni character in that dialogue to be far far more forceful than I would feel comfortable with. That person seems to trust their Ni perception a LOT more than I do, and is practically (or actually) imposing it on another person. I don't like that.

    I can relate to see the storm and being told that it isn't happening. But in my case, I've tended to let myself get over-ridden, and I've far more often gone down with the other person in the plane, or tried to come up with a solution within what they can actually see and acknowledge (which also has often ended in the plane going down).

    Does this analogy help for you to understand the NFP reaction to it and why they may be resistant?
    Someone trying to force their perspective into action affecting both of you, and not requiring your explicit consent and trust before taking over like that on something that you don't see? I think a lot of people would be resistant to that.

    I used to hope that my INFP would simply trust that I had something real to contribute from this perception of mine that she can't see the way I do, and would be willing to use this as a resource in difficult situations. That kind of trust has been elusive, however, and I really don't feel comfortable forcing it as in your description. She really needs to see it for herself, come to her own conclusions. I don't see her letting go of that and I don't know that it would be a good thing if she did.

    From what I can see at this point in time, things seem to work best between us when we each focus on developing and maintaining our respective (true) strengths, and when we each bring as much clarity and centeredness and wellness as possible into our shared endeavors. That's where we are best able to develop real trust in each other. Very different from that scenario you describe, IMO, and very different from me second-guessing myself the way I have in the other direction.

    Does it help you to see Ni from the Si-user's perspective and why it seems so unintuitive to us? Does it give you ideas about how to get around these problems in future?
    I guess I feel like I already knew some about the INFP side of that scenario from how my partner has responded when I simply bring up Ni information that she can't see and call for us to use that information in our decisions. She generally refuses and needs to get her own information/use her own perspective to choose her actions.

    The only thing I know about getting around these problems is back to: I need to better trust my own Ni-Se perception and act from that space. If that ends up meaning that my partner just can't deal with me, or I can't deal with her, I will need to accept that. However, it seems to me that when I am clear and centered, she tends to respond with support and respect. Not always, but a lot of the time. It's when I'm in that second-guessing/don't understand struggle that things seem to automatically get bad between us. (though again, this is an evolving process and understanding for me, so this is just a snapshot of my perspective right now)

    Pretty much, but "trust" in the broadest sense. It can be about a need for assurance (and re-assurance), confidence, faith, reliability, and/or intimacy.
    Okay (I may need to think more on this)

    Yes, they are forcing it. I would say it is an example of an ideal outcome rather than the normal way of things. Earlier I mentioned how comforting it can be to rest on the Ni perception and let them take over. It's also scary as hell, if not insulting, to have that perception put upon you if you don't feel that "trust" has been earned.
    I completely agree.

    With the plane scenario, I was partly trying to convey the confidence and certainty of the INxJ appears to the other person, and how that doesn't seem to have any apparent foundation. Of course there is foundation, but it's just not perceptible to them. So the Ni user has to establish or provide some foundation to help the other person accept their perspective. If a "trust" hasn't been established beforehand (eg. through a close relationship), or if it is a complex situation that requires more sensitivity, this might involve gently guiding their perception of the factors (ie. of the storm and the configuration of the plane) bit by bit and allowing them the freedom to take it in and process it. You might look at the sky and see storm clouds, but the other person may not recognise storm clouds when they see them, and may need to have them pointed out and explained. However, you have to be very careful with taking over, because it basically implies that the other person is ignorant of the factors, and there can be arrogance in that assumption. Perhaps the other person recognises the factors and is dealing with them in their own preferred way, and you taking over is denying them the option to choose their own path.
    Since I haven't had that kind of confidence/certainty (trust in my own perceptions, willingness to discount what the other person perceives, lack of second guessing of my own perception) in my interactions with my INFP, I don't know how much I can usefully engage on this.

    As I've been writing, something has been nagging at the back of my mind. Wondering, have I ever done this? I haven't been successful, but there is an area where I'm pretty sure I tried quite a bit. And this piece gets me to consciousness about the specifics:

    Perhaps the other person recognises the factors and is dealing with them in their own preferred way, and you taking over is denying them the option to choose their own path
    It's to do with my partner's personal struggles that affected our lives. For some time, I was trying to deal with it, solve it somehow. About a year ago, I finally realized what should have been obvious to me all along but wasn't: she needs to deal with this stuff in her own way in her own time. The difficulty for me was that both our lives were being harmed by some of her choices about if and when and how to deal with stuff - which they have been in some significant ways in the past. And I am enneagram 6 and there has been some very real scary "physical survival for us both" stuff that has happened. That said, my lived experience at this point is that backing off and trusting that she knows how she needs to move has had very clear outcome advantages over my painful (to us both) attempt to push the issues. I can easily function as an obstacle when I don't step back and allow her to move in her own way at her own pace etc.

    eta: But I also need to find ways for her choices not to be running our lives in ways that affect me negatively. That's the sticky part given my tendency to get gravitationally pulled into her landscape.

    I think he tapped into my Judging functions more generally. He presented factors and let me process them (ie. evaluate them) through Fi-Te. Going back to the cake batter analogy: you give me the ingredients but I want to mix them my own way. And maybe the batter will result in a cake or maybe it will make a loaf of bread. Some guidance is welcome (eg. reminding me when I've left out an ingredient, querying certain methods of combining things, or telling me when it's burning), but, in most cases, I don't respond well to being instructed on what to make and how to make it.
    Makes sense to me.

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    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    Hmmm. The other thought I had to your question, SK, was that when I have an initial reaction and haven't determined what reasoning backs up the feeling or if I am undecided, my default is to override myself in favour of the other person's perspective. However, if upon further reflection, something else starts to emerge that brings it into a different focus, then I may backtrack, looking for an argument that settles those questions, or confirming my newer opinion. It is reliant on feedback - I find it hard to make that process happen internally, because I need outer feedback to disprove or confirm my thoughts. I would consider those opinions like concrete that is poured, but still malleable.

    Don't know if that is informative or not.

    I agree with Werebudgie that Ni isn't likely to take control of the plane, even if it is persistent and convinced of its own rightness based on factors that the other person doesn't readily see. Until I have gotten older, I think I myself even overrode a lot of my Ni gut feelings or projections of the future because I couldn't articulate the reasons for them at the time. I can see how I could be perceived as being rigid or immoveable though and sometimes I do forget to explain Ni observations that affect my decision making because I over assume that other people see the same stuff. I'm getting better now at recognizing other people's processes and who might wish for the chain of intermediate steps to support my present proposed course of action.

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