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Thread: When an INFJ doorslams you / cuts you out of their life / breaks off contact

  1. #1481
    Senior Member Array yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    You want me to tell a story about how I've come to my opinions on INFJs? Tell the story and back up my conclusions?
    Yes please, that would help demonstrate your points in a more "cause and effect" manner...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Nice emoticon

  2. #1482
    Vulnerability Array Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Not ignoring anybody. @yeghor, I'm working on compiling a story for you (Si, Ti, heck I don't know), but it might take a while. You want an example of my journey, so I have to go back through my blogs, but my mom is sick right now and my time is limited. Everyone else who posted to me, I'll get back with you, too, eventually.

    But for now, going back through my oldest blog and thinking about some of the things brought up in this thread, the following thought popped into my head and I thought it had some significance:

    We keep talking about trust and trusted feedback issues, and I wondered if the answer to who we can listen to and trust ends up being ourselves. I know, I know, we need the feedback in order to build the model. We need trusted feedback in order to build a realistic model. But in all of that, it seems that we don't trust ourselves to discern the difference between reality and not reality, without polling outside of ourselves for reassurance. We don't feel safe enough in our own judgement to take some risks. We don't trust that we can make our own judgement, find out that it's wrong (or right), and deal with whatever consequences come up. So, maybe we need a little more trust in ourselves in order to be able to take more risks. And when I say 'risks', I'm not talking about the extreme. No jumping off of cliffs, or tempting serial killers. Just taking risks with normal people in normal relationships.

    ETA: Oh, and I'm not saying the other extreme either: trusting in ourselves exclusively to the point of arrogance.

    There needs to be some middle ground. Gray areas. We sometimes seem to have no gray areas. I know I bounce between the extremes a lot before finally settling, hopefully, somewhere in the middle. And I know I have a hard time trusting my own judgement. If I can't trust me, then how can I ever really trust anyone else? And I know I don't like having to deal with the consequences of being wrong. It takes a lot of energy to do so. I try to opt for efficiency. But that can be so limiting. And it takes just as much or more energy to go through all of the possible consequences and plan and strategize for those consequences, rather than just taking action and dealing with whatever happens.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  3. #1483
    Vulnerability Array Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Also, it seems to me that when it comes down to fight or flight, I'm wired to choose flight. It's hard to fight against that urge, but it's doable.

    Example from my childhood:
    In 6th grade I was paired with a boy named Jon for some science project. Jon and I got along really well; I enjoyed talking with him and I wasn't yet in the phase of being boy-crazy, so he was just a fun kid to do a project with. But, unbeknownst to me, or to Jon for that matter, a girl named Susie had pegged Jon as her boyfriend, and told me that she was going to have to beat me up for talking to him. She told me to be in the playground after school. Well, first off, I had never been in a physical fight in my life, and I'm not partial to voluntarily putting myself in situations to be beaten up because I consider myself a wimp when it comes to physical strength. Second, I knew that if I showed up, it wouldn't be just Susie there to beat me up, she had one or two other girls who always hung around with her and they would most likely be there, too. So, my initial instinct was to figure out how to avoid the beating: flight. But, I figured that if I didn't show up, she would just beat me up some other time, and I would have to live with the fear of that until it happened, so, as scared as I was, I showed up. And she didn't. And she never bothered me again. Yes, there was always the possibility that she would have shown up and beaten the snot out of me, but that isn't what actually happened. And I couldn't know that until I took the chance.

    The point is not to show up for every fight, some fights are worth avoiding, but that fighting is an option, no matter how much it might feel like it's not because of being wired for flight.


    ETA: This particular experience stayed with me because it's a part of my framework or model. It taught me some important lessons that I want to remember. That seems to be the case with all the "big" experiences I remember: they have helped to integrate some sort of lesson into my psyche. Maybe lessons that aren't naturally a part of my wiring? Not sure.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  4. #1484
    Senior Member Array the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    Not ignoring anybody. @yeghor, I'm working on compiling a story for you (Si, Ti, heck I don't know), but it might take a while. You want an example of my journey, so I have to go back through my blogs, but my mom is sick right now and my time is limited. Everyone else who posted to me, I'll get back with you, too, eventually.

    But for now, going back through my oldest blog and thinking about some of the things brought up in this thread, the following thought popped into my head and I thought it had some significance:

    We keep talking about trust and trusted feedback issues, and I wondered if the answer to who we can listen to and trust ends up being ourselves. I know, I know, we need the feedback in order to build the model. We need trusted feedback in order to build a realistic model. But in all of that, it seems that we don't trust ourselves to discern the difference between reality and not reality, without polling outside of ourselves for reassurance. We don't feel safe enough in our own judgement to take some risks. We don't trust that we can make our own judgement, find out that it's wrong (or right), and deal with whatever consequences come up. So, maybe we need a little more trust in ourselves in order to be able to take more risks. And when I say 'risks', I'm not talking about the extreme. No jumping off of cliffs, or tempting serial killers. Just taking risks with normal people in normal relationships.

    ETA: Oh, and I'm not saying the other extreme either: trusting in ourselves exclusively to the point of arrogance.

    There needs to be some middle ground. Gray areas. We sometimes seem to have no gray areas. I know I bounce between the extremes a lot before finally settling, hopefully, somewhere in the middle. And I know I have a hard time trusting my own judgement. If I can't trust me, then how can I ever really trust anyone else? And I know I don't like having to deal with the consequences of being wrong. It takes a lot of energy to do so. I try to opt for efficiency. But that can be so limiting. And it takes just as much or more energy to go through all of the possible consequences and plan and strategize for those consequences, rather than just taking action and dealing with whatever happens.
    i agree with you. that's why i was trying to suggest that in terms of understanding and dealing with the conflict in the thread, it would be more productive to focus on emotions and qualities of relationship rather than on cognitive functions. it's not easy to have positive relationships with others, yet we need these positive relationships to teach us how to have positive relationships with ourselves. and we need positive relationships with ourselves to have positive relationships with others. i think infps and infjs, as withdrawn types, often tend to lack self-trust. 4s fear abandonment, so they shame themselves to always try to stay ahead of the game, to prevent themselves from being on the wrong side of the fence. however, in so doing, they practice abandoning themselves, and so their self-shaming invokes existential, unholy terror in them. this is not going to instill self trust. 9s can't find themselves at times and struggle to recognize the necessary boundaries between their needs and others, so they struggle to be overwhelmed by others while also needing to identify with them to have any grounding. 5s simply disappear into their minds, losing their bodies and losing touch with their desires, frantically trying to understand and in so doing not recognizing that they are simply projecting their own emotions, their own distrust, into the world because they've lost the part of themselves can offer that to themselves.

    it's clear that we're both really sensitive types who at times feel powerless to work through all the difficult shit we feel. not to mention, many of us are weird and somewhat unconventional, so it can be extra trying as we grow up and hope for others to be able to understand and empathize with us. it's difficult to have a good handle on our own emotional issues when many of us, i assume, tend to hide these aspects of ourselves for survival, rather than share them with others and work through them. as a male, this is certainly my story.

    it's also clear that there can be some communication challenges, especially around the touchy spots. i get that infjs tend to offer what they see as balanced perspective, at times nudging the other towards the center of where they perceive that to be even before they have fully done the work to empathize with what the experience is like for the other person. at the same time, infps tend to try out different ways of experiencing something and at times expecting others to empathize with each one, when empathy is a gift and rather than something owed is something that you can ask for when you take responsibility to recognize your own needs and vulnerabilities and share them with others in a way that gives them the power to choose. it's clear to me that in our own ways, we are trying to offer some listening, at times even going to the 7 habits dictum "seek first to understand rather than to be understood." but that isn't always enough bc of the translation, and the extreme sensitivity and at times unpolished emotional communication we offer each other. because in part of the cognitive function difference, the trust and effort needed to get across the gap is greater. when the relationship is stressed, however, it becomes easier to say fuck it, i deserve to be heard in my own terms!

    perhaps even more than more self-conscious of cognitive function communication is simply a requirement for more diligent emotionally intelligent communication practices.

  5. #1485
    reborn Array PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    it would be more productive to focus on emotions and qualities of relationship rather than on cognitive functions.
    I've advocated for this for as long as I can remember. It does not happen.

    i get that infjs tend to offer what they see as balanced perspective, at times nudging the other towards the center of where they perceive that to be even before they have fully done the work to empathize with what the experience is like for the other person.
    There's not a gentle to way to say this, but it must be said. That's a nice sentence, but I sincerely don't think you get it, at all. The issue at point is that you can only nudge someone towards a balanced perspective when you can actually see and acknowledge that perspective. It's about far more than lip service to the concept of empathy. You cannot empathize with something you don't even know exists. Or something you don't agree with. Or something that is alien to you. Or something you choose to ignore.

    When I think of the hundreds if not thousands of hours I've invested, baring my heart and soul in the interest of communications, showing INFJ's genuine emotion centered in the construct of my inner space and to see it makes no difference at all... can you imagine how saddening that is? Reading my old posts brings tears to my eyes at how naive I was to think that this was the answer.

    I've concluded over the course of the 5 years that I have been here that Fi is indeed utterly inaccessible and even invisible to (nearly all) INFJs. I mistakenly thought that because you were Ni doms you would be able to shift perspective and see even just a wee slice of what it's like to exist in my inner realm, and if you did, we could connect. I've explained it and I've demonstrated it. I do not have Ni in my construct but I can still sense your place in it, even though that feels quite mystical to me.

    You have no idea how much farther I come to meet you than you come to meet me. If you knew, it would make you cry too.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  6. #1486
    I want my account deleted Array
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    When I think of the hundreds if not thousands of hours I've invested, baring my heart and soul in the interest of communications, showing INFJ's genuine emotion centered in the construct of my inner space and to see it makes no difference at all... can you imagine how saddening that is? Reading my old posts brings tears to my eyes at how naive I was to think that this was the answer.

    I've concluded over the course of the 5 years that I have been here that Fi is indeed utterly inaccessible and even invisible to (nearly all) INFJs. I mistakenly thought that because you were Ni doms you would be able to shift perspective and see even just a wee slice of what it's like to exist in my inner realm, and if you did, we could connect. I've explained it and I've demonstrated it. I do not have Ni in my construct but I can still sense your place in it, even though that feels quite mystical to me.

    You have no idea how much farther I come to meet you than you come to meet me. If you knew, it would make you cry too.
    @PeaceBaby, I just had a conversation with my INFP partner about this particular comment you posted and have also been discussing this thread with her for some time.

    Two things came up that we both agree on:

    1. We both feel that the problem you have with INFJs is not due to you being an INFP, but instead due to something else about you as an individual.

    To speak from my specific location in a real life INFJ/INFP dynamic: I have had tons and TONS of difficulty of communication with my partner and we've had lots of struggles related to differences in our respective cognitive functions. And she simply hasn't tried to accommodate me the way you claim you try to accommodate INFJs. Not at all.

    That said, I genuinely like her and for the most part enjoy being around her. You, on the other hand, feel icky to me at the gut-visceral level. This icky feeling in me is not the same as INFJ/INFP cognitive function tensions. I've interacted with other INFPs as well and felt the cognitive function tensions. It's not the same thing as how I feel you. There's something about you in particular, as an individual, not sourced to INFP/INFJ cognitive function differences and tensions that repels me at a visceral level.

    It seems to both myself and my INFP partner that you've managed to mask whatever this is about you as an individual behind the very real tensions that can arise between INFJs and INFPs. This blurs up a lot of discussion, because your individual stuff (that isn't due to INFJ-INFP differences) gets tangled up in the INFJ-INFP-dynamic discussion. This tangle creates an escalated/heightened level of affect in the thread, and is not particularly useful for clarity IMO.

    2. In response to your lamenting about your interactions with INFJs given all your efforts:

    My partner said it best: "If this group [INFJs] aren't a fit for her, she should find other people to connect with who aren't INFJ. No big deal."

    I agree. I see a lot of evidence, in your own self-reporting, in the interactions on this board, and in my brief interactional experience of you from the very beginning, that you're trying to connect with people who aren't a good fit for you. Sometimes there just isn't a good fit. This happens in life, everyone is not a good fit with everyone else for personal connections, and it's not the end of the world. I think my partner is correct when she says, "Just move on, then."

    And again, to be clear, I do not think any of this leads back into the "can INFJs (generally) and INFPs (generally) bridge the differences and tensions between us" (which is the collective rut that things fall into sometimes). Because as I said above, both myself and my INFP partner think that your difficulties with INFJs are NOT due to your INFP cognitive functions in you, but rather something else that is specific to you as an individual - something that has gotten way too tangled into the other, real tensions between our two types.

    And also again to be clear: not only are my INFP partner and I in accord on the above, but she led the analysis I'm sharing above.

  7. #1487
    Senior Member Array the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I've advocated for this for as long as I can remember. It does not happen.
    i find it frustrating when you say that you also advocate for focusing on emotions and qualities of relationship, and then your response includes talk of functions again.

    There's not a gentle to way to say this, but it must be said. That's a nice sentence, but I sincerely don't think you get it, at all. The issue at point is that you can only nudge someone towards a balanced perspective when you can actually see and acknowledge that perspective. It's about far more than lip service to the concept of empathy. You cannot empathize with something you don't even know exists. Or something you don't agree with. Or something that is alien to you. Or something you choose to ignore.
    so you focus on where they are coming from, and we focus on what they are trying to do/say, what we think they were going for. to me that's just a different way of organizing and selecting relevant context. depending on your definitions, infp is better at empathy, infj is better at understanding. each is identifying with a different aspect of the person. both are still rooted in trying to know and care for others. neither has cornered the market on compassion. to me that just seems like different starting places, and i agree that both are important. they are to me because they together offer more, when to recognize how to do both is really helpful for improving relationships. for me, personally, a focus on empathy helps me access the place in myself that can give acceptance, which i've never been very good at. understanding, meanwhile, helps me clean my mind of the shitty ways of talking to myself that restrict me from having the energy to open up to myself and others. it also helps me effectively communicate what emotions, experiences, and circumstances i am empathizing with.

    When I think of the hundreds if not thousands of hours I've invested, baring my heart and soul in the interest of communications, showing INFJ's genuine emotion centered in the construct of my inner space and to see it makes no difference at all... can you imagine how saddening that is? Reading my old posts brings tears to my eyes at how naive I was to think that this was the answer.
    it sounds like you want me to appreciate how hard you are trying. it also sounds like you want me to believe that you are not just putting on an act. and it sounds like you want me to understand what it is like to share something personal and still feel like you are woefully misunderstood. is this correct?

    I've concluded over the course of the 5 years that I have been here that Fi is indeed utterly inaccessible and even invisible to (nearly all) INFJs. I mistakenly thought that because you were Ni doms you would be able to shift perspective and see even just a wee slice of what it's like to exist in my inner realm, and if you did, we could connect. I've explained it and I've demonstrated it. I do not have Ni in my construct but I can still sense your place in it, even though that feels quite mystical to me.
    i understand what it feels like to try to articulate how your experience is shaped, before it comes out so fluffy and rounded in spoken language. i've tried many times to illustrate Ni. you can even find some of them in this thread. usually when i do that, like in a post earlier to southern kross in this thread, i get no response, because it is so difficult to fathom. it's frustrating, because i want others to know what my most fundamental form of experience, the place where my self feels like it begins, is really like. to both accept its limitations and to appreciate its strengths.

    You have no idea how much farther I come to meet you than you come to meet me. If you knew, it would make you cry too.
    it's frustrating to me when you tell me what i would feel. i would prefer if you would just share what you are feeling. i don't feel like that respects my ability to understand my own situation uniquely, depending on the frameworks i use to observe them. isn't it possible that i could understand the situation differently than you? that you could even understand the situation differently than you do now? wouldn't this have some impact on how i would feel? and wouldn't my needs, which generate my sense of good and bad, shape whether my feelings would ultimately be the same as yours, even given the same circumstance otherwise?

  8. #1488
    Vulnerability Array Eilonwy's Avatar
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    So, this is INFJ empathy at its best? Someone is vulnerable and puts their feelings out there and this is what they get in return?

    INFJs shouldn't be called Counselors.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

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    Vulnerability Array Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Once again, what I see being said is that if someone doesn't meet our criteria for conversing, then they will be admonished until they either bend to our demands or they are badgered or ridiculed into leaving us alone. The blame is put back on them. Is there no responsibility for the breakdown in communication that falls on us? None at all?
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

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    No thread ever made me more happy to be a T. You people are terrifying.
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