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Thread: When an INFJ doorslams you / cuts you out of their life / breaks off contact

  1. #1471
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    However, I believe my reliance on Fe-aux to elicit and gather positive emotional connection became a reflex/addiction...IRL, outside the scope of family, it started to pose a vulnerability for my emotional wellbeing because I mistakenly expected the same positive emotional response from everyone but instead got neutral and/or negative feedback from people...For quite a while (till I was 24-25) I thought there was something wrong with me because I couldn't fit in with the society (my society expected/demanded males to act like xSTPs)...

    As I grow older and as my Ti started to develop, I started to understand that my Fe-aux reflex was a detriment to me and that I shouldn't allow criticism/judgment by everyone thru Fe and shouldn't try to accommodate for everyone who was displeased with me...that this indeed should be a two-way street...So I am now in mid-30s and my Fe and Ti are acting like each others’ antagonists…(same for you @Werebudgie perhaps?)...The downside is I still feel bad/guilty/selfish when I turn down some people cause I know I could've accepted their requests...It feels as if I am going against my nature...
    Yes to Fe and Ti as antagonists in me. But I had a very different set of specifics than you do, yeghor (eg for me it wasn't about emotional nourishment, but passing and a certain kind of survival in an alien-seeming system).

    As for age trajectory, I first began returning to centering in Ni in my very early 30s (though didn't call it that then and it's only an approximation), and it was during the rest of my 30s that I began to consciously pinpoint what I later came to call "Fe" as harmful to me. Now heading into my mid-40s.

    What I believe you do not know about INFJs is that I as INFJ have already been wired ... to take too much of any judgment in and it takes a very long time to process/accept/reject it when that happens...it consumes too much energy and is debilitating...not practical for everyday life…
    It's very similar for me.

    I found something @March wrote on this point to be really really vividly useful as description and it's been sitting in the back of my internal field since I read it:

    Quote Originally Posted by March View Post
    NiFe almost automatically gives certain, trusted people a central venous line into our bloodstreams. Their judgements go right into our hearts as perceptions. Great if you can trust those people to only use that line for your benefit and can accurately perceive the type and dose of medicine that's needed.
    The bolded part is really key for me: Fe-aux can mis-code external material that isn't perception as if it were perception.

    I've semi-recently used the metaphor of "root virus" for how Fe-aux works in me and affects me. I'm not an expert in how root viruses work, but basically the metaphor is one way for me to get at this dynamic:

    Fe-aux assigns high legitimacy to external value material into me so that it is allowed into the deepest rececess of my perception as legitimate. From this perspective, Fe-aux itself is some sort of meta-virus that I welcomed into myself when I first developed it. This Fe virus allows in a constant stream of smaller viruses.

    The good news from my perspective is that once my immune system (Ti plays a big role) deconstructs that stuff, I can develop antibodies along the way for specific infections. I have also learned a lot, in a pretty deep intensely participatory kind of way, about the cultural illness in this system and some about how it shows up in individuals as damage etc. But the process of taking this into myself, not having my immune system recognize it for what it is to begin with, living through the infections and the phase of neutralizing them, over and over ... this is freaking exhausting. At this stage of my life, it's feeling more and more like deep survival for me to re-center in Ni-Se and take down this Fe meta-virus in myself rather then continuing to go after the stream of infections it allows in over and over and over.

    @PeaceBaby: Your wording here sounds as if you are looking down on him…? As if it is his fault that he couldn't understand you?
    Quick note: If by him/his/he you mean me, I'm a woman (as is my partner). If it's not a reference to me, sorry!

    @Werebudgie : my understanding is that you are saying that you are using Ni-Se instantaneous "gut/visceral feeling" to decide beforehand whether the incoming information/judgment/perspective is flawed/off/biased somehow and by doing that you do not allow in inappropriate judgment in the firstplace for a thorough analysis…
    Kind of but not exactly (though it may just be word usage)

    I'm trying more and more to rely on that gut/visceral Ni-Se sense as a guide to action and movement. My struggle - and it is still very much a struggle- is to trust the gut/visceral sense. I still second-guess it way too much. I haven't yet managed to take down that Fe root virus in myself, though am working on it.

    But yes, one of the many outcomes of centering in and trusting Ni-Se perception is that inappropriate material does not enter me and need analytical immune system analysis as it so often has.

    In such a case Fe may kick in (like a doorslam?) to pass extraverted judgment if the other side pushes to impose his/her perspective further?
    For me, what kicks in is more Ti than Fe. Ti is really good with categories and analysis and putting words to things. That's probably why I respond with things like "the problem I have is your lack of accuracy" and a focus on lack of understanding. That's largely Ti judgement in me. And having categories of trust (related to people and the information they put forward) to begin with is, for me, more Ti-sourced than Fe-sourced. In this, I'm always looking for data, tracking multiple streams of data, checking out new data, sorting data, tinkering with categories and relationships between etc etc. It's a lot like inductive qualitative research and analysis (which I have done professionally as well).

    I mean, for example, one thing that's been coming up for me in my personal life and inner reflections has to do with boundaries, trying to analytically categorize and map where are my actual boundaries in relation to what is okay or not from other people. And the process is pretty Ti-heavy - it's not about assigning values to anything, it's about observing myself and my experiences and reactions and other people's interactions with me and trying to Ti-analyze categories related to "where are the different lines here that might make up different boundaries?" and what does that mean for people and interactions?"

    I don't know yet how this in me is or might be related to the doorslam option.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    INFPs will have trouble accepting a presented position or state of mind when it is undermined by contrary data. It's just hard for us to really believe that you accept a point/fact/POV into your soul (such as a valid criticism), when you then go back on it in one way or another not long afterwards. It's like what I was saying earlier about sensing a sort of internal inconsistency. What happens is that we appear to agree on a point, the discussion continues, and then suddenly some INFJs go back to saying things that suggest you don't agree at all.
    My partner said this about me during our first year together, and it took me a while to figure out that that in our case at least, this is most likely her experience of me doing that process of:

    1. Me second guessing Ni-Se info and perception, plus Fe-aux internalizing and legitimizing of the external materials to start with,

    2. The interaction and and well internalized material starts viscerally feeling off at that gut/Ni-Se level in a way I can't ignore

    3. And so Ti comes in and starts the process of figuring out the specifics and comes to a conclusion opposite to the initial Fe internalization and acceptance (which nearly 100% of the time is what the Ni-Se information was trying to say in the first place).

    Seems to me that what it's like on the outside is "wait, you seemed to agree with me before and take in what I was saying, but now you've done a 180!" as if that initial deep taking-in could not have happened. But it does and 180 is actually because it was taken in so deeply.

    For me, the best way to avoid that process is for me to continue getting centered in Ni-Se and keep learning to trust that initial gut-level information in the first place. More and more, I realize that at this stage of my life, I want my deepest personal relationships to be with people who can actually support me in in a practice getting and staying centered in Ni-Se perception - people who recognize, respond positively to, and truly desire the deep wellness in me that comes with such centered-ness.

    And one thing I keep forgetting to mention in all of this is: For me, one crucial thing about Ni-Se information is that it is pre-conscious. To truly make use of the Ni-Se info as a resource for real, I usually will need to act on that info before I know the details and know why at a conscious level. Action before conscious meaning and analysis. I need to learn to flow inside that Ni-Se language itself rather than waiting for a translation to my conscious mind, trusting that even though I may not know why I have a visceral gut feeling to turn this way or that, to respond to a person in one way or another, the information is real and solid and valuable. When I've done this, I've had some amazingly great - stunningly great in fact - results. But it is a huge leap of trust in my own perception. All too often, I fall back into the rut of that second-guessing of my own perception plus, Fe influx, followed by Ti correction leading eventually to recentering in Ni organic landscape.

    And as I write, I wonder if in doing that over and over, I've conditioned myself even further into distrust of my own perception, because I rely so heavily on that extremely rigorous data-grounded, detailed Ti analysis before I feel really okay in acting based on Ni or Ni-Se perception. It's like another layer of assimilation - I don't trust myself enough to act in the actual information because this process in me says information isn't solid until I can grasp it in this rigorous conscious way. And this keeps happening no matter how much data I have that emerges later showing that the initial Ni or Ni-Se perception was really into something real and crucial to begin with.

    But again, when I have been able to relax and trust Ni-Se perception, I realize that my organic mode is a deep willingness to act from the space underneath consciousness. I have seen that when I am truly well and centered, I'm completely comfortable with perception, followed by movement (based on Ni-Se data), with conscious/analytical understanding later. I'm actually almost always joyfully blown away by the deep wisdom of the information that comes through Ni-Se when I take it for what it is and let conscious/analytical understanding come later. And I have seen how me trying to understand it analytically and/or reach some shared understanding with others pretty much always skews the information and makes movement that's truly well for me so much more difficult than it ever needs to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    In an attempt to be accurate, I don't think that hurt is necessarily the main reaction that INFJs are likely to feel. For various reasons, I think it is more likely to be annoyance - either at inaccuracies or at being directed.

    Over several threads, I'm seeing that this is another difference in reaction between us. I don't know if it's INFP specific, or Fi, but strong emotions like hurt, outrage, etc seem to come to the forefront, while I think INFJs are more likely to use words like frustration, disagreement, annoyance. I suppose there are whole discussions that could be devoted to the ins and outs of all that, but in interests of heading down a likely path, I wondered if it was useful to point out this difference, as it may lead to very different conclusions about reactions, motivations, etc.
    The INFJ part of that description is very very true for me as well and I think there are big huge realms of stuff that could be discussed on this and related points. I'm really glad you brought this up.

    And, a cryptic comment on this point: The difference between feeling (gut or body based perception) and emotion (an internal narrative about the meaning of those sensations) is part of it, IMO. Talk about a potentially huge topic...

  2. #1472
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    Southern Kross, I'm finally getting to responding to this thread of the discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    That's interesting, but I'm not sure I totally understand. So you're saying your default is distrust of your Ni perceptions and it's about learning to make the leap/commitment to an idea? If so, that's very strange to me and not at all what I expected.
    Yes at the conscious assimilated level of me, my default is distrust of my Ni perception. It's like someone who assimilates from a culture in which certain things are accepted as real into a culture in which those things are considered not there/imaginary. I still perceive in the Ni landscape, but am immersed in an environment in which everyone acts as if that layer isn't happening. Given Fe-aux plus that cultural environment, I question my perception. Internally, though, I still perceive what I do. But the part of me that has learned to survive in this other (alien to my organic perception) context distrusts that perception by default. There's more about this scattered around in in the previous comment I posted.

    But also I do want to mention: I don't experience Ni as about ideas. I experience it as an actual landscape inside which I perceive and move. For me it's like there are layers of reality or something like that. I can shift myself, my perceving self, from one landscape to another and I can be pulled from one to another. One is "home" to me.

    So the default distrust is: "Is what I am perceiving real?" And no matter how many times I question my perception only to learn later that yes, it was real (because as things unfold over time, what I was picking up reveals itself in more externally see-able ways - and I even have documentation of some of this from my own writing, emails etc), no matter that I know cognitively that this keeps happening, my first learned instinct is to question my perception

    And it doesn't help that the language of this perception doesn't easily translate to the conscious partly-assimilated mind/consciousness. Metaphor, images, visceral/body sense ... the specifics of the information aren't always clear to my consciousness.

    That said, when I do trust it, the information gets clearer to me, mainly because I don't require it to translate, I just experience it in the native language and move from there.

    And do you feel a sort of zen connectedness between yourself and your environment when you integrate Se? Like a sense of order and flow between the inner and outer worlds?
    Not zen connectedness with the external environment, not really. There's vividness and wonder and sometimes pain (pain like "hearing" the trees around me screaming from a bark beetle infestation due to drought, that was fun).

    But really, my own primary point of connectedness into the larger web is via my Ni landscape. That hasn't changed. So .... Se as part of Ni-Se: it's like coming into contact with a long lost but obviously related relative from another branch of the same family - someone who's both wonderfully similar at the core, but different in the specifics. Love and recognition and "this is one of my relations" ... but not at that most intimate level of interconnectedness that I experience in my Ni landscape.

    Do you mean, how do I avoid self-confirming bias? Like employing Te to justify an inaccurate Fi insight? Is that what you mean?
    I think so.

    That's a tough question. It's not something I consciously think about but I feel like it doesn't happen frequently (you may disagree). The mental testing phase is important to avoid this - Ne-Si should be able to pick up when it's just not truthful, applicable or functional. And the thing is I do still constantly question my Judgements, even after I've relatively solidified them. If I come across something that conflicts with it, I don't just shrug it off; I have to figure out a solution. Either I have to explain that situation away (ie. work out why it's different or doesn't apply) or make adjustments to the value/insight. Fi-Te has a strong nose for truth: Fi usually gives off a nagging feeling that something's wrong, even when it's more inconvenient to accept it, and that inner Te-dom is more than willing to call bullshit on any attempts to dishonestly eliminate the anomaly. So I can be quite hard on myself. This is why INFPs are obsessed with 'authenticity' because our Judging functions can be harsh taskmasters; they won't let me get away with being untruthful, even with myself - even when it would be so much easier to do so.

    But I suppose there's always a chance it can happen.
    I appreciate the explanation!

    I talked with my INFP partner about this INFP integration of Te. She said that integrating Te as a standard part of her process doesn't appeal to her because it loses quickness of response, and for other reasons I probably can't adequately describe in translation. I didn't get a bad visceral sense when we discussed it.

    As for truth: I've known quite a few people who have what I would call a truth sense, as I tend to be drawn to people with such a sense and have my own version of it myself. From what I can tell, it's not limited to any one MBTI type, though cognitive processes may affect how it manifests. I don't know the MBTI types of some of the "truth sense" people I've known, but of the ones where I am reasonably certain of MBTI type, my experiences include: INFP (my partner and possibly one other friend), ENTP, ISFP (possibly more than one), and INFJ (me). Oh, and someone I know pretty well who I guess is maybe ENFJ, but not 100% sure because she won't type herself. And possibly also an INTJ. But that's not a complete list since I don't know MBTI type for quite a few of the people I know who have a truth sense.

    It's strange that you see your auxiliary function as a means to compensate. I personally feel like Fi and Ne go together so incredibly naturally - like they were made for each other.
    From what I can tell of the recent discussion here, I'm not the only INFJ who feels this way. But there certainly may be iNFJs who experience Fe-aux totally differently.

    And about Ne - it's my favorite function in my partner. I do have some difficulty with it (the Ne "throwing out possibilities" versus Ni "explore in depth" thing). But in terms of visceral/gut level feel - my partner's Ne is, for me, mostly associated with a bouncy sunny part of her that for the most part I instinctively adore. I have more difficulty with Fi than with Ne in her. Her Fi seems more self-protective in some ways, while her Ne has a more expansive and joyful at the visceral feel level of my perception.

    9s notorious for anger issues? No way - I seriously struggle to see that. Are you sure she's a 9 and not a 6 that integrates to 9 a great deal? My Dad's a 9w8 and I literally haven't seen him lose his temper since 2002. I can remember the exact event.
    She is for sure a nine. The thought of her as a 6 is - really funny actually. She doesn't even have 6 in her tritype (her head type in the tritype is 7). Anyway, yes, nines have a usually well-hidden well of suppressed anger. It's a couple of layers underneath the surface layer of trying to maintain peace. I've heard about this from various nines. It doesn't surprise me that you haven't seen your dad lose his temper since 2002. Suppression of the anger is often part of being a 9. But that doesn't mean it's not there. I also suspect that the wing affects things. The 8 wing in my partner is pretty prominent in this regard.

    I actually thought of better an analogy after I posted. It might help clarify things.

    So imagine I'm in the cockpit flying the plane and a INxJ walks in:

    INxJ: This isn't going to work. *start flicking switches and turning knobs - completely changing the configuration of the plane*
    Me: What are you doing?!
    INxJ: Something's wrong. I've got to do something about it.
    Me: There's nothing wrong! Stop trying to change those things! You'll make the plane crash.
    INxJ: No I won't. *continues changing things*
    Me: Yes you will! Clearly you haven't you read the manual, done the training course, or got enough experience to know better. All that stuff is important to keeping the plane flying.
    INxJ: The plane will fly my way too, and it will be better. Anyway don't you see a storm is coming. We've got to prepare.
    Me: I don't see any storm. You've just got here - what do you know? None of what you're doing makes any sense and I didn't ask for your help anyway! I can fly this plane however I want.
    INxJ: Just trust me. It will be better. *takes over, flies the plane and avoids the storm*
    Me: WTF! How did you do that?!
    I appreciate the metaphor a lot as description! I'm thinking about this, but don't yet know if I have anything to say or ask on it.

    When it operates well, it can be an amazing feeling. It can feel like magic working on me - which can be just thrilling to feel and see. There are 3 difficulties though: a) it can be very hard to trust someone else with piloting the plane (perhaps especially so for INFPs?); b) the Ni-doms perception can often be totally counter-intuitive to me; and c) sometimes Ni-doms fly the plane in ways that are totally irresponsible. These factors can feed into each other too: if I see you flying irresponsibly once, it's hard for me to let you go of the yoke later on, even if you're right.
    Makes sense.

    And if I can't perceive what you're trying to do or how it will work, it's hard for me to trust it in the first place.
    Trust. Trust seems to be key in some way.

    I can't think of a specific example of forcing the issue. It mostly comes from telling me the way things are and then detailing how there couldn't be any other explanation.
    Is the person in the metaphorical plane dialogue basically forcing the issue? It seems very forceful to me - not only telling you, but unilaterally doing stuff that you object to based on something you don't see. Would that be an example of forcing, in your view?

    Not forcing it is like the discussion I had with my INTJ friend. We had just finished watching a movie which is part of a series. He had watched it before and obviously had a very strong view on the problems with it. He also obviously wanted to get this point across and have me agree. But instead of instructing me, he started by asking questions. He asked about specific things and whether they bothered me. I disagreed with him initially and stated that I'm not personally bothered by those things and didn't think there was a problem with it. He offered counter-arguments that were not didactic and explained the possible problems these flaws could create for the series. I still disagreed, but he slowly discussed the matter and eventually it clicked for me what he was getting at. I then agreed with him overall, but retained some minor disagreement over some aspects. I really appreciated the way he went about it. He patiently let me explore the factors myself and go through the motions of evaluating them (even though this wasn't useful for him). He was never condescending about it, nor did it feel like I was just being pushed towards a goal against my will. I also really enjoyed the feeling afterwards, for the novelty of being persuaded in such a odd (Ni) manner, and out of gratitude for my views being validated at the same time. I suppose it was like he let me fly the plane but stood over my shoulder and gently persuaded me to consider the problems he saw.
    It sounds to me like he was able to tap into your shared Te. Does that seem accurate?

    This is very interesting. I get what you mean abound not having met a true peer; that's what it can be like. Not necessarily in an arrogant way - just that few people can have such an interest in and clear understanding of the underlying elements of life. I wonder... perhaps she overstepped the mark with the New Age stuff purely because she considers you a true peer. That's a problem I can have with INFJs - we can feel so much on the same page, that I can get lazy and assume they'll will appreciate or understand what I'm doing (even though it's not an approach I would ordinarily use).
    I don't know! I do know that I didn't like the top-down rigid feel of how she interacted when she did that "I'm trying to get you to see X" thing. To me that just isn't the kind of energy one brings to a peer, someone with whom there is enough respect to engage in a dance of mutual learning. I'm of two minds about this. Or maybe it's not that, maybe I see in my partner two streams: one open to mutual learning, one far more rigid. I truly don't know right now.

    Don't worry. You don't have to do it.
    So part of me was hoping you'd offer the money

    Very rarely. I don't hold people to the same standards. I usually think of it as a personal problem, not necessarily something common to others. If the subject comes up and someone else mentions struggling in that regard I might explain that Te standard and how it helped me, but I wouldn't enforce it.
    Thanks for the clarification here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Sorry to use your post as an example, but can you see how your whole post is about what you need in order for you to feel comfortable communicating with someone? Do you see how that can look like you are directing/trying to control the whole conversation?

    And I'm not saying that you shouldn't have these needs, or that you shouldn't state these needs, or that these needs are somehow not reasonable. What I'm saying is do you see how this post looks from another perspective? I emphasized "looks" because how it looks isn't the same as how it is. It is a reasonable post. From your perspective. The fact that it's reasonable from your perspective and might not look reasonable from another perspective says absolutely nothing about whether it really is reasonable or not. That's where the communication part would come in--figuring out what's reasonable and what's not. But we don't get to that point because we keep getting stuck at this point.

    I think one of the big sticking points revolves around this:
    so I have tried not to make it worse by saying too much to her directly.
    Not speaking directly. If one is concerned about airing differences publicly, then it can always be done privately. Instead, what happens with the indirect method is that everyone can see that there's a problem anyway, and then people who have no business being a part of the problem end up interpreting the issue with incomplete and probably inaccurate data, and choosing a side, and then it turns into a group issue instead of an individual issue.

    Also, and I could be wrong about this, I haven't seen the INFJ side of this conversation asking instead of telling. Like I said before, it looks like "this is what we need before we will even consider having a conversation" or "this is what YOU have to do before we can have a conversation" instead of "what can each of us do in order to have a conversation?". So, it's fine to state INFJ needs for consideration, but also ask for the other type's needs, and then be willing to negotiate. Both sides seem to be stuck at the point of feeling that their needs are not being heard and noted, but what I've come to see is that both sides are not stuck. My side is. I believe that many of the other types in this thread HAVE heard and noted INFJ needs and are just waiting for the same in return. Not just the words, but the demonstrations. Not just saying I understand, but showing I understand.

    And, if someone has needs that are non-negotiable, then they have a choice to make. They might not like their choices, or they might not want to have to choose, but it will be their choice and they are free to make it and then accept the consequences of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post

    Not speaking directly. If one is concerned about airing differences publicly, then it can always be done privately. Instead, what happens with the indirect method is that everyone can see that there's a problem anyway, and then people who have no business being a part of the problem end up interpreting the issue with incomplete and probably inaccurate data, and choosing a side, and then it turns into a group issue instead of an individual issue.
    Are you suggesting that- if there's an individual with whom mis-communication seems to happen so frequently you could set your clock by it, and attempts at trying to clean up mis-communication go absolutely nowhere (and ironing things out privately isn't an option, simply because the people are too different)- then we should feel obligated to remove ourselves entirely from the environment? All because other people might notice, and there's no way to control what conclusions they come to?


    eta: there are more than a couple people here in the forum who (I have gotten the impression) avoid me. The rest of the forum probably doesn't even notice- because I don't keep relentlessly trying to engage them, already knowing they don't want to interact with me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Guys, I wish you would stop going after @PeaceBaby. She's not some naughty child that needs correcting. If you're offended or uncomfortable by what she says, just say so and try your best to explain why. I'm sure she would be willing to heal the breach. The way some of you are dealing with it is a bit underhanded at times and it pains me to see it.
    how would i go about doing this in a way that felt right to you? could you give an example or two? what do you experience when you empathize with her, and what that i have written most triggers the difficult reactions?

    in the meantime, could you explain how you see something as underhanded? is it a lack of request for specific behaviors (Te) and more of a focus on attitude (Fe) that feels controlling and condescending to you? is it that the attitude that we try to bring to the conversation doesn't really connect to her experience, so it doesn't feel like the attempt to balance our message that we are making is worth anything to you bc it is simply unnecessary?

    Since we're getting all Te here, I thought I'd step in. This isn't directed at anyone in particular (or that I'm picking on you, yeghor), is said without anger or malicious intent, nor do I have a goal in mind other than helping PB to get her perspective across. If it sounds unpleasant it's only because of my sucky communication skills.
    i don't know if i need this disclaimer or not, but i see that you are obviously trying. i think it's the way you follow through with it that is most helpful. you are owning your emotions and sharing them, which is disarming, grounding us in relationship rather than in ideas.

    This is how I read PB recent posts:

    I think she's trying to find some clarity and truth in the matter. She's not trying to pin negative criticisms on INFJs, but figure out why there's a disconnect here. And it seems like there's a lot of disconnect, on many levels, and I think that this is frustrating her a little. What I often feel in these threads (and I believe PB may feel the same) is that we make some progress in understanding one another and then it get's all undone. Just as a INFJ will have trouble accepting information presented in a negative context, INFPs will have trouble accepting a presented position or state of mind when it is undermined by contrary data. It's just hard for us to really believe that you accept a point/fact/POV into your soul (such as a valid criticism), when you then go back on it in one way or another not long afterwards. It's like what I was saying earlier about sensing a sort of internal inconsistency. What happens is that we appear to agree on a point, the discussion continues, and then suddenly some INFJs go back to saying things that suggest you don't agree at all. I think PB didn't really make outright accusations of this because I imagine she thought that you meant well, and probably didn't understand what she was saying, so she thought she could overcome the problem with more patient discussion (ie. this is the IxFP tendency to make adjustments to themselves first if things are going wrong). But when this fails over and over again, it's hard to conceal the growing frustration. I know you guys don't mean to do this back-peddling thing (I don't think you have any clue that you're doing it), but it's so discouraging and it can make us question that you're being genuine or that you were ever open in the first-place. Now I think PB is losing a bit of patience here and it makes it hard for her to keep discussing the facts without being blunt and addressing the problem (as she sees it) more directly. She probably feels like there's a lot of this so-called 'white-noise' and she's trying to cut through it.
    this is helpful to me. i see what she is doing more clearly with the thread as a whole, especially in terms of what she sees as her role, how she wants to make a contribution, and what she wants to gain from it.

    one thing to note for me is that i don't know if it is just a "negative context" that trips us up. to me what bothers me more is an unbalanced perspective. when i feel like obviously significant perspectives are simply tabled or not recognized (so the blend gets off), i lose trust. how we negotiate your ability to explore a perspective separately in shared space with how we feel like the other perspectives, the key context, are blended, centered, aggregated, and ultimately acknowledged, i think, is a major obstacle. for us, the integrity that we judge Je-wise is what is at stake. it's not as easy for us to keep our awareness on the flow of multiple, differentiated perspectives, of a lot of simultaneous stories. it's easier for us to see the unity of the shape of it, like looking at a chessboard from overhead and recognizing key structural, elemental patterns.

    additionally, i can't explain how much i live in hypothetical space. i make hypotheses at every moment. lots of them. kind of like how intjs sometimes make arguments as their de facto way of thinking, even as they are interpreting others. it's really difficult to explain the jenga-y-ness of this structure. i understand it can be very frustrating, especially if you can't stay grounded in a specific task, a specific dialectical process anchored in something. if we can get to a place where we empathize with your needs and feel like we receive the same empathy, it makes this easier.

    Now the INFJs do seem to be picking up on her frustration and this is making you feel uncertain of her intentions(?) Perhaps you think that she's trying to be nice but has some other factor driving her. Trust me when I say, that if an INFP is trying to be pleasant and respectful, no matter what weird/negative vibe you get from them, it's because they think you are a person deserving respect and decency. I suspect PB was initially trying her best to suppress her annoyance because she thinks it unproductive to the discussion (and perhaps sees it as her own problem that she needs to overcome), rather than out of a desire to keep important information or personal motivations from you all.

    Not this is not said to dismiss any of the reaction of INFJs to this. If you feel hurt, then that's totally valid. I just don't want you thinking that she is concealing negative intentions and is totally alone in her views and observations. I have to admit before I entered this thread, when I was just reading people's posts, I was extremely irritated. I even wrote a rather angry and accusatory post, but thought better of it and deleted it before posting it. I only started posting when I calmed down and was responding in as much of a factually-based manner as possible, rather than emotionally. So we're all getting a bit frustrated about this stuff at times.
    i think you have brought to my attention another disconnect that seems to be happening on both sides. while i do think it helps to have a sense of how she conceives of her role, as i mentioned earlier, especially as a so inferior like i obviously am, what's more frustrating to me is less about what she is trying to do or why she is trying to do it and more about the presuppositions i see in her thinking process. i imagine this is exactly how you guys feel, too. that the other person's assumptions, our assumptions, are driving you crazy. i thought to uncover those, it would be helpful to more directly address the emotional issues in the communication process, and i tried to be clear that i was seeing the shame problem as something that was clearly affecting both sides of the debate (because it was leading to hypersensitivity and an inability to deal with those presuppositions constructively).

    i was being a bit directive by trying to aim the conversation in that way. for me, the way this feels is when i feel like the commitment to offer balanced perspective is fair and compassionate, i appreciate guidance from others. admittedly, it happens easier with ntps for me, but there's been many times when i've been totally perplexed that my infp 4w5 friend didn't offer more feedback, because at times he understands some of what i am going through better than i do. i don't quite see his rules that prevent him from doing so.

    Both PB and I are more than willing to admit that some of the evaluation of these circumstances comes out of previous problems encountered with INFJs (partly in previous threads) - in other words, the past frustrations are being repeated and that just adds to the frustrations. If you're interested and feeling brave, read what those factors are in a post of mine in a previous thread. I don't know whether that will help or hinder, but I'm putting it out there.

    BTW I really am uneasy about all this too. I feel like everyone will think I've got some sort of grudge against INFJs - which is so far from the truth. I can imagine how you guys must feel about this constant barrage of criticism. I just want to clear things up, and for us to get through to one another, but the more I try, the muddier the waters get - then we all get suckered into these epic debates which seem to reinforce the idea that we can't get along. I just don't think that's true and it saddens me when others start to believe it.
    i find that saddening too.

    i do think it's fair to say that there is at times just a real difficulty in working out conflict and getting our needs met. i appreciate that you've tried to show us how this frustration is happening for you. i'm not trying to compound it, but i am having a difficult time being held accountable to something i am struggling to observe or understand. while i feel like i wrote my last few posts from an honest place and from a place in which i had let go of my resentment (which wasn't even personal but for my identification with infjs and zbuck in particular), i recognize that that doesn't eliminate the presuppositions. i'm still not sure what to do with some of the ones that were read into what i wrote, when i don't even hold them. for instance, the "hard worker" thing was my attempt at showing that i appreciated what i saw as part of the role peacebaby has often tried to play on the forums. it was a way of appreciating her commitment to the discussions we have and attempt to bring something of value forth from them. but that was read as a slight. that's what i feel like redirecting to a point where the shame we feel when we feel like we are wrong, or that we are being pressured into feeling like we are wrong, is creating not only distrust but vehemence. i felt good that i could write from a place free of that, so i thought i could share both my experience and my perspective.

    perhaps both sides could be more specific when explaining what exactly is giving them trouble? perhaps too some old conflicts are getting in the way? it is difficult for me to separate those interpersonal conflicts from how they color the conclusions drawn in the thread, as if they are still "representative types" that are expressing the type itself rather than their own unique histories. i think those are difficult to keep straight.

  6. #1476
    Senior Member Array the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    Sorry to use your post as an example, but can you see how your whole post is about what you need in order for you to feel comfortable communicating with someone? Do you see how that can look like you are directing/trying to control the whole conversation?
    i think it might be more than just feeling comfortable. i think it might have to do with what our needs are for us to be able to engage in this way, in these vulnerable topics, directed at behaviors stereotyped to be ours and ours alone. it's just loaded territory. and where you guys want to focus on "the facts," for us, the perspective that is laying out those facts sometimes doesn't feel at all balanced to us. we distrust that then. those expectations underlying your goals seem threatening to us. your j side doesn't feel right to us.

    And I'm not saying that you shouldn't have these needs, or that you shouldn't state these needs, or that these needs are somehow not reasonable. What I'm saying is do you see how this post looks from another perspective? I emphasized "looks" because how it looks isn't the same as how it is. It is a reasonable post. From your perspective. The fact that it's reasonable from your perspective and might not look reasonable from another perspective says absolutely nothing about whether it really is reasonable or not. That's where the communication part would come in--figuring out what's reasonable and what's not. But we don't get to that point because we keep getting stuck at this point.
    i don't see how the "looks" thing is so helpful. that sounds like what Fe gets criticized for. as if it is driven by having to allow the norms, the most common perspectives, around it to drive what is true for it. i don't understand how you can truly check in with what is true for you apart from those, how you can truly respect yourself, if you just stay in this space. i wish i were more fluid with norms, with checking in with others expectations and perspectives. but in its own right, i won't allow this so superego to take control over who i am. it doesn't get to make me give up my right to define for myself my reality. i want others to be part of it, i want to share it, which means opening myself to theirs.

    i admit i'm not great at constantly checking in with how things look to others in their own terms. i understand some of the downsides of this blind spot. at the same time, for it to feel balanced to me, i hope you understand that i do care about creating a real, sincere space that allows others to have their own needs fully expressed. that is very, very important to me. i see that as a crucial aspect of who i am, and it is central in all of my voluntary relationships. it just doesn't feel right to me. for me, we always have the right to share our needs and to ASK for what we need. but that is also our responsibility to do so. and that's not really an infj thing as much as it's an sx vs so thing.

    I think one of the big sticking points revolves around this:

    Not speaking directly. If one is concerned about airing differences publicly, then it can always be done privately. Instead, what happens with the indirect method is that everyone can see that there's a problem anyway, and then people who have no business being a part of the problem end up interpreting the issue with incomplete and probably inaccurate data, and choosing a side, and then it turns into a group issue instead of an individual issue.

    Also, and I could be wrong about this, I haven't seen the INFJ side of this conversation asking instead of telling. Like I said before, it looks like "this is what we need before we will even consider having a conversation" or "this is what YOU have to do before we can have a conversation" instead of "what can each of us do in order to have a conversation?". So, it's fine to state INFJ needs for consideration, but also ask for the other type's needs, and then be willing to negotiate. Both sides seem to be stuck at the point of feeling that their needs are not being heard and noted, but what I've come to see is that both sides are not stuck. My side is. I believe that many of the other types in this thread HAVE heard and noted INFJ needs and are just waiting for the same in return. Not just the words, but the demonstrations. Not just saying I understand, but showing I understand.

    And, if someone has needs that are non-negotiable, then they have a choice to make. They might not like their choices, or they might not want to have to choose, but it will be their choice and they are free to make it and then accept the consequences of it.
    it feels to me like we are having the conversation already. i think both of us might see the work of the conversation differently. and we might be saying, "hey, get the j side right!" and you might be saying, "hey, get the p side right!" but for us, to me, it seems like focusing on the common ground of our enneagram types, our psychosocial and emotional similarities, our shared interests, and our similar ideals and aesthetics seems necessary. perhaps we need more trust to deal with the socio-cognitive alienation that can happen between us.

  7. #1477
    Senior Member Array yeghor's Avatar
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    @Eilonwy , @PeaceBaby , @Southern Kross

    Just hit us with Si material...

    Pull your personal stories (preferably not related to the forum) from your memory banks and share them so that everyone can see what's under the hood...

    I have done it several times here in the thread...I am just expecting reciprocity...I am not angered or hurt by what's being shared...It's just that I can see that there must be quite some accumulated Si material/data (due diligence) that must form the basis of some strong judgments and perspectives offered here in the thread...I would rather be informed about that material as well along with the respective judgment/perspective... That would illustrate the points made much better...

    Without that, it feels as if some element/component of the perspectives/judgments/suggestions offered is missing or is held back (intentionally for fear of something or unintentionally due to not giving too much importance to it?)...that's what makes me uneasy...

    It is counterproductive anyway if I either address or ignore this lack of substance...So I chose to address it and am telling this so that "we" can do something about it...

    Once more: Just hit us with Si material...is it hard or somehow inconvenient to do that?...

    Or, alternatively, tell us what "we" should or should not do in communication...What type of feedback are you expecting us to offer back to you and in what format so that our points can also get across or you can materialize perspective in a better/faster way?

  8. #1478
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    Actually, nevermind this whole post (I'm leaving it spoilered because it's been quoted, but I'm spoilering it because I regret even asking.]



    I keep coming back to the thread because there are some new INFJs here who are putting forth really helpful blurbs of INFJ experience descriptions- but then I get shenpa’ed in by other stuff which raises big red flags for me. It’s really not worth the aggravation/drama- I don’t actually want to cause anyone any distress or grief. Least of all Eilonwy, who already has so much thankless work on her plate that I feel terrible for getting caught up in this monkeyshine in the first place. So I’ll just hope to catch you newbies in other threads at some point, maybe.








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  9. #1479
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Just hit us with Si material...

    Pull your personal stories (preferably not related to the forum) from your memory banks and share them so that everyone can see what's under the hood...

    I have done it several times here in the thread...I am just expecting reciprocity...I am not angered or hurt by what's being shared...It's just that I can see that there must be quite some accumulated Si material/data (due diligence) that must form the basis of some strong judgments and perspectives offered here in the thread...I would rather be informed about that material as well along with the respective judgment/perspective... That would illustrate the points made much better...
    I'm curious to see the responses. My tentative understanding of Si, from learning how it works in my INFP partner, is that seems to be more of a holistic thing made up of patterns - a sort of past-experience accumulated map. It seems to me that this Si map's usefulness is that the specific details have already been distilled and also already been related to the other functions (especially Fi) - and that "doing all the details again" might kind of defeat the purpose of Si (or at least Si-tert) as an efficient way to contribute to understanding and action. I could be wrong, but that's what comes up when reading this. It also strikes me that your request may be coming from INFJ Ti-tert - which, in my experience at least, freaking loves to muck around with the experiential concrete details that inform our analytical conclusions, using the experiential details as rich grounding for whatever categories and other analyses emerge from there.

    Who knows if I'm onto anything with that, though. I'll be interested to see the responses you get on this request, if any.
    Last edited by Werebudgie; 01-31-2014 at 11:12 PM. Reason: edited a part out for usefulness/flow of discussion

  10. #1480
    reborn Array PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Just hit us with Si material...

    Pull your personal stories (preferably not related to the forum) from your memory banks and share them so that everyone can see what's under the hood...
    You want me to tell a story about how I've come to my opinions on INFJs? Tell the story and back up my conclusions?

    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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