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  1. #1461
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grey_beard View Post
    I only joined a day or so ago and this thread looked interesting.
    Lol. (And welcome to the forum.)


    2) speaking of INFPs, what on earth do you mean by "raw batter" ? I'm usually good with metaphors (being an INTJ with *strong* Ni) but this one eludes me.
    Yeah, that one's not especially self-explanatory and I think I threw quite a few people off- it's an analogy I've used in the past and I'm so accustomed to the same people participating in these discussions that it didn't occur to me to explain. I have edited the post to include the original analogy explanation at the bottom. (Thank you for the nudge to do that.)
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  2. #1462
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    @Z Buck McFate re: RAW BATTER
    Got it. Raw batter means you see the extroverted intuitive processing in real time, so to speak. The test balloons (not *meant* for public consumption, but observers think it is, since it is spoken aloud), the trial runs,
    the "hold up your thumb and cock it at an angle while looking at the angle of the picture frame" stuff.

    Analogous to the lightning-fast Ni recognition of the INTJ; but slower and one Newton-Raphson step at a time, as it were, no simply taking two trial shots and then instantly extrapolating to the finished product.
    Cause to the NF with Ne, watching where the trial balloons float off to, and imagining what the view from...*THAT BLUE ONE, over *there** would be like -- is not only entrancing but part
    of the unadulterated childlike joy of using Ne...

    Yah, that was my Ni intuiting the experience in real-time as I typed.

    Thanks for the explanation, and the courteous welcome!

    Dragging myself away to read paper-bound books now.
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

    Please comment on my johari / nohari pages.

  3. #1463
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    peacebaby, i'm gonna use a line from one of my infp friends (a 4w5 so/sx) and say that we're all kind of pieces of shit. it's a least possible to see anything and anyone like that. that's part of the reality of shame and the part it plays in all of our lives. in no way am i above that. i think it requires empathy to be able to deal with this fact, this endless buffet of shame opportunities that surround us, that we share. if you feel my intention, my strategy, is to make you feel bad, or to take my shame out on you, i'm sorry. that's not what it feels like to me. i don't really know what your needs in this thread are, and i'm sorry that you felt attacked, which seems to have made them less accessible rather than more so.

    i think you would be right if you pointed out that i did not really ask for a specific behavior that would meet my needs. i don't really know yet what that would be. it would be helpful to acknowledge what you were feeling and share that, but it is difficult to focus on that rather than both of us telling each other what the other is doing.

    finally, i'm not inferring that you need to change who you are in any way. i'm not saying that i personally have a problem with you. i'm saying that when some anger comes out, like it has in specific instances throughout this thread, if you expect me to take ownership of that, it will shut down my ability to communicate with you. boiling it down, i'm really just saying this thread to me seems like it's more about all of OUR shame and resentment more than it's about a socio-cognitive functions phenomenon. (part of me in my resentment wants to say, "but that's okay, it's only about me and my type, i guess i shouldn't really have any stake in how people are talking about the 'essential flaws' of my type"). it's something that i identify with, that we all do, that in fact is the most significant factor in our identities on this site. meanwhile, i have not tried in any way to characterize infps as these fundamentally flawed creatures who just need to grow up. i like infps. i hope that much comes through.

    (i mean, even the recognition of needs as a different perspective than focusing on intentions, to me, is Fi wisdom taught to me by Fi types. this has allowed me to feel more peace than i ever have before, because it helps center what i am responsible for when i determine what is true for me, and it helps me let go of the feeling that i need others to see me a certain way, that i need to be accountable to any possible thought they could think about me).

  4. #1464
    I want my account deleted
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    edited out original comment. @Eilonwy, I'm sorry but I think you and I just don't mesh well for useful dialogue.

  5. #1465
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    edited out original comment. Eilonwy, I'm sorry but I think you and I just don't mesh well for useful dialogue.
    I see. That's fine. This will be the last time I quote you or mention you, if that's what you're requesting. But as far as I can tell, you and I haven't had any dialogue up until you called me a poster child in response to @PeaceBaby. Can I conclude that my not appreciating being called that and saying so falls under the category of what you consider not useful dialogue?
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  6. #1466

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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross
    The other thing you have to be aware of is that for INFPs (well it is for me, I'm not sure if the others agree), that we have 2 emotional worlds: one temporary and superficial, and one enduring and deep. The two can have little affect on one another and can be completely in contrast with one another too.
    @PeaceBaby : I do not know if the abovegiven applies to you or to this but something in your posts make me uneasy...It feels to me as if you are somehow holding some part of yourself back while asking for feedback to your posts (and I do not think it is about holding some negative emotion back but you believe if you disclosed "whatever it is" we would somehow alter our response?)...it is as if you are reluctant to share personel information/experience...The problem in that is I (and perhaps other INFxs here) have been sharing some personal stuff and by doing that putting myself on the line...and it feels to me that you are not...Moreover, in that way I cannot see where your experience and deductions are coming from...

    It (particularly your linked post about perpetual childhood) somehow feels like we are all in an [insert proper addiction] anonymous meeting and you position yourself in the center and expect everyone to share their story but you...That feels as if you are differentiating yourself from the addicts...You would get better results if you come to this gathering not just to collect others' stories to achieve better understanding of whatever is troubling you but also to share your own story/grief/sorrow so that other's can learn from your story as well...This may be related to what @the state i am in mentioned below:

    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in
    ...for me to offer vulnerability, i need to feel supported. it's really that simple. if i am being reduced to an obstacle for a process, without really even identifying with the intention behind it and connecting to an attitude i trust, it just ain't gonna happen.
    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie
    I had a friend (possibly an ESFP) who used to do the same thing...When we were discussing she would act in a manner that suggested : "I have already threaded those paths/issues you mentioned so long ago...I do not need to hear whatever you may have to say on them...I've already heard/learnt whatever I need to hear/learn about them...There's nothing you can teach me about that subject..."

    Whenever she did that it felt as if she was condescending/patronizing me...and as if she really didn't know me and my true capacity/knowledge...It felt as if she did that by reflex...as if she somehow deduced/concluded that I was inferior to her and automatically rejected whatever I had to say without even listening and/or taking it into consideration...she was quite stressed and not in a very healthy state then though...

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross
    It's strange that you see your auxiliary function as a means to compensate. I personally feel like Fi and Ne go together so incredibly naturally - like they were made for each other….
    This is what Fe-aux feels like to me:



    My Fe-aux feels to me like a tentacle that an emotionally malnourished person desperately looking for someone to connect to for emotional nourishment had to develop to satisfy that need...Fe is the tool I had to adapt so as to be able to get nourished by my parents (they are both elderly and I love them) I guess...

    An adaptation tool for the real world dynamics as @Werebudgie suggested perhaps?

    However, I believe my reliance on Fe-aux to elicit and gather positive emotional connection became a reflex/addiction...IRL, outside the scope of family, it started to pose a vulnerability for my emotional wellbeing because I mistakenly expected the same positive emotional response from everyone but instead got neutral and/or negative feedback from people...For quite a while (till I was 24-25) I thought there was something wrong with me because I couldn't fit in with the society (my society expected/demanded males to act like xSTPs)...

    As I grow older and as my Ti started to develop, I started to understand that my Fe-aux reflex was a detriment to me and that I shouldn't allow criticism/judgment by everyone thru Fe and shouldn't try to accommodate for everyone who was displeased with me...that this indeed should be a two-way street...So I am now in mid-30s and my Fe and Ti are acting like each others’ antagonists…(same for you @Werebudgie perhaps?)...The downside is I still feel bad/guilty/selfish when I turn down some people cause I know I could've accepted their requests...It feels as if I am going against my nature...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peacebaby
    You are supposed to go out into the world, use Fe, let the judging function do what it's supposed to do which is mediate that entire process you've outlined above.
    I think it wasn't received very clearly but you are saying that INFJs should use (as it was intended) Fe-aux to pass extroverted judgment onto others when they feel that the judgment/perspective proposed about them (INFJ) to be incorrect…basically to be more assertive...am I right?

    My Fe-aux may be quite blunt I believe when I pass extraverted judgment thru it though...is this the same for other INFJs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peacebaby
    No, maybe not. The trusted few could still override the general population. What is the solution, aside from having the best trusted few possible?
    Owning up to our own judgment without relying on others?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peacebaby
    @PeaceBaby : You are suggesting, if I am not mistaken, that INFJs allow external judgments/perspectives into themselves and use Fe to push them back after analyzing whether they hold water or not...

    What I believe you do not know about INFJs is that I as INFJ have already been wired (by upbringing?) to take too much of any judgment in and it takes a very long time to process/accept/reject it when that happens...it consumes too much energy and is debilitating...not practical for everyday life…

    You are saying you are going against your reflexes to take more perspectives/judgments into yourself (your Fi?) and are suggesting the same for INFJs by extrapolating from your experience...However, in your case your Fi is already too rigid and you are trying to loosen it by allowing more external perspective inside and then pushing the invalid perspective out...

    In INFJ case, OTOH, my Fe is already too loose to begin with...It has already taken too many external perspectives in while growing up...What I need to do now is to gain a better command of it and make my Fe more rigid rather than even looser...so that I won't initiate lengthy analysis and rectification/calibration just for anyone that I come across but for people who I truly care about...

    I agree with you however on your suggestion that I should start using my Fe in a more assertive manner to reject invalid external perspectives...

    @Werebudgie : my understanding is that you are saying that you are using Ni-Se instantaneous "gut/visceral feeling" to decide beforehand whether the incoming information/judgment/perspective is flawed/off/biased somehow and by doing that you do not allow in inappropriate judgment in the firstplace for a thorough analysis…

    In such a case Fe may kick in (like a doorslam?) to pass extraverted judgment if the other side pushes to impose his/her perspective further?

    Perhaps more frequent but less severe Fe outbursts may be used to assert boundaries against such people and if they do not wish to respect those boundaries, disconnecting entirely may be used as a last resort…? Perhaps this was what you were suggesting @PeaceBaby ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peacebaby
    eta: listen, why don't we just say INFPs suck in the outer world and INFJs suck in the inner world? Can we then call a truce?
    There's a minor point you are missing...INFJs (at the very least I do) suck in the outer world as well...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peacebaby
    Anyway, I don't want to argue, you stepped into a post with a long history behind it, of course you can't appreciate fully why I said what I did.
    @PeaceBaby: Your wording here sounds as if you are looking down on him…? As if it is his fault that he couldn't understand you? As a senior member with better grasp of the forum history, there's also the possibility for you to provide more information to him as to where you were coming from in your suggestion...

  7. #1467
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Hi yeghor,

    Thanks for the questions. I appreciate that you ask them. I promised you some other answers and time presses but I have not forgotten them. I am going to answer just a couple of these succinctly, which to you might feel rude, and that's because I use Te not Fe, and it's Te inferior and I am getting annoyed with your presumptions. Since I might sound more blunt to your ears, I am laying this preface out there as an immediate disclaimer, ok?

    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    The problem in that is I (and perhaps other INFxs here) have been sharing some personal stuff and by doing that putting myself on the line...and it feels to me that you are not...Moreover, in that way I cannot see where your experience and deductions are coming from...
    There's plenty of data mining out there in the forum to examine if you so desire, since I have over 4000 posts here. I have laid my heart bare in this environment for the sake of connecting. Please do not assume I have not.

    Whenever she did that it felt as if she was condescending/patronizing me...and as if she really didn't know me and my true capacity/knowledge...It felt as if she did that by reflex...as if she somehow deduced/concluded that I was inferior to her and automatically rejected whatever I had to say without even listening and/or taking it into consideration...she was quite stressed and not in a very healthy state then though...
    Fi generally sees all people as equal individuals. Your awareness of Fe power dynamics leads you to assign tiers to the realm of individuals. Certainly individual people often assume a greater knowledge of some subject areas than others. That does not necessarily translate to feeling themselves superior in any human way.

    This is what Fe-aux feels like to me:
    irl I would hug you, baby bird.

    As I grow older and as my Ti started to develop, I started to understand that my Fe-aux reflex was a detriment to me and that I shouldn't allow criticism/judgment by everyone thru Fe and shouldn't try to accommodate for everyone who was displeased with me...
    Could that be simply a maturing of Fe rather than the function itself being a detriment?


    I think it wasn't received very clearly but you are saying that INFJs should use (as it was intended) Fe-aux to pass extroverted judgment onto others when they feel that the judgment/perspective proposed about them (INFJ) to be incorrect…basically to be more assertive...am I right?
    Yes, but there's a problem. The tendency for Fe is to immediately look at the other people as the cause of the emotional state you do not wish to experience. (Just as the immediate tendency for Fi is to look at themselves as the cause of the problem). So, since Fe tends to look OUT it assigns right/wrong to each person in their world. Someone who makes an Fe person feel bad, like me seemingly making INFJs feel bad in this moment, is seen as BAD. So, in order for your Fe to work to maximum, imho you need to own your own emotional state and then use mature Fe in the outer world. Other people do not make you feel anything. It's not like a virus that infects your body. I know I likely absorb 10x as many emotions from other people than an Fe aux does. Even so, the processing of such things is the same.

    state very much hurt my feelings yesterday up there. His post was intended to scold me and it was patronizingly unkind. You do not see me lashing out with a post to say state is _______ or _______ (insert bad adjective) now do you? I could. There's enough up there to very strongly assert a boundary if I was inclined to such things. But I will launder those emotions along with all the other items needing cleansing that comes my way on daily basis.

    My Fe-aux may be quite blunt I believe when I pass extraverted judgment thru it though...is this the same for other INFJs?
    Yes, and I know it embarrasses you. But I think it's the price of admission for you all. Figuring out how to use it to advantage rather than seeing it as the enemy.

    Owning up to our own judgment without relying on others?
    It's almost like you blame other people for your judgment - "She made me do it!"

    You are suggesting, if I am not mistaken, that INFJs allow external judgments/perspectives into themselves and use Fe to push them back after analyzing whether they hold water or not...
    That sounds about right.

    What I believe you do not know about INFJs is that I as INFJ have already been wired (by upbringing?) to take too much of any judgment in and it takes a very long time to process/accept/reject it when that happens...it consumes too much energy and is debilitating...not practical for everyday life…
    All of us carry that baggage, eh? I am not sure it takes you inherently more time and energy than anyone else to try to heal the inner child of this programming?

    You are saying you are going against your reflexes to take more perspectives/judgments into yourself (your Fi?) and are suggesting the same for INFJs by extrapolating from your experience...However, in your case your Fi is already too rigid and you are trying to loosen it by allowing more external perspective inside and then pushing the invalid perspective out...
    No, I don't think it's that Fi is rigid ..... I seem to be able to take on multiple perspective simultaneously and hold them all in me at any given time. I do see your perspective even though you feel no warmth from me to suggest so. Fi is judging by increments every moment, fine-tuning all along the way to produce a kind of truth of the matter. It's not about me even, it's just about what is true. Somehow I can feel your inner space and through that hold open a spot for you at my table.

    But I am human. And I am annoyed at the turn of this thread and the accusations against me that I see myself as better. Really, that's an Fe tactic to demean MY opinion now. I hold no such intent. I do not feel above anyone. I have no motive to elevate myself at the expense of anyone else.

    I just tell you what I see. Just because what I see isn't something you like, I can't help that. And you are free to reject this information like anyone else can. But that does not give anyone the right to cause social consequences to me because you don't like what I have to say.

    In such a case Fe may kick in (like a doorslam?) to pass extraverted judgment if the other side pushes to impose his/her perspective further?
    That's what it did look like above.

    Perhaps more frequent but less severe Fe outbursts may be used to assert boundaries against such people and if they do not wish to respect those boundaries, disconnecting entirely may be used as a last resort…? Perhaps this was what you were suggesting ?
    Agreed, but again with a caveat: Most people are not viruses invading your space. They're just equally human with unique hang-ups and perspectives, just like you.

    Your wording here sounds as if you are looking down on him…? As if it is his fault that he couldn't understand you? As a senior member with better grasp of the forum history, there's also the possibility for you to provide more information to him as to where you were coming from in your suggestion...
    Here's the problem:

    You are projecting an intent into this word I do not have and did not feel.

    I use it like the dictionary definition:

    ap·pre·ci·ate

    1. recognize the full worth of.
    2. understand (a situation) fully; recognize the full implications of.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  8. #1468

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Thanks for the questions. I appreciate that you ask them. I promised you some other answers and time presses but I have not forgotten them. I am going to answer just a couple of these succinctly, which to you might feel rude, and that's because I use Te not Fe, and it's Te inferior and I am getting annoyed with your presumptions. Since I might sound more blunt to your ears, I am laying this preface out there as an immediate disclaimer, ok?
    Sorry I am annoyed by my assumptions too...But if I do not put them forward they fester in me further...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    irl I would hug you, baby bird.
    Thanks...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Could that be simply a maturing of Fe rather than the function itself being a detriment?
    Perhaps...I feel that I need to learn to properly wield Fe (which I believe is geared towards taking care of others'/collective's needs) in a self-centered/individualistic way (which is a purpose it is not geared for)...And the learnt reflex is the real detriment...Ti helps dismantling the reflex I guess but it requires conscious practice and effort to rein it in...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Yes, but there's a problem. The tendency for Fe is to immediately look at the other people as the cause of the emotional state you do not wish to experience. (Just as the immediate tendency for Fi is to look at themselves as the cause of the problem).
    But I thought I was the cause for the first 25 years of my life?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    So, since Fe tends to look OUT it assigns right/wrong to each person in their world. Someone who makes an Fe person feel bad, like me seemingly making INFJs feel bad in this moment, is seen as BAD. So, in order for your Fe to work to maximum, imho you need to own your own emotional state and then use mature Fe in the outer world. Other people do not make you feel anything. It's not like a virus that infects your body. I know I likely absorb 10x as many emotions from other people than an Fe aux does. Even so, the processing of such things is the same.
    I recently told my ENTP friend that I used to automatically assume I was wrong/flawed somehow when people were displeased with me and that from now on I wanted to tell people that it is infact they who were wrong (when I felt justified ofc...)

    I internally categorize/judge people but I am not sure if it is Fe's doing...I also constantly criticize/judge myself thru introspection? Perhaps it has more to do with Ni?

    I think your relatively much larger Fi reservoir (high self esteem) enables you to dampen and dissipate other people's negatively charged judgments with much more ease than me...When I allow people's judgments thru Fe, there's not much there inside me to counter/absorb the charge...Until I can build a higher self esteem, the mechanism I am left with is regulating what is allowed inside thru Fe at the moment...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    state very much hurt my feelings yesterday up there. His post was intended to scold me and it was patronizingly unkind. You do not see me lashing out with a post to say state is _______ or _______ (insert bad adjective) now do you? I could. There's enough up there to very strongly assert a boundary if I was inclined to such things. But I will launder those emotions along with all the other items needing cleansing that comes my way on daily basis.
    She said that was not her intention if I am not mistaken? Anyway it is of course your choice how to react to other's posts...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Yes, and I know it embarrasses you. But I think it's the price of admission for you all. Figuring out how to use it to advantage rather than seeing it as the enemy.
    I wish I had Te instead of Fe...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    It's almost like you blame other people for your judgment - "She made me do it!"
    I was trying to say perhaps I should try being happy with my judgments/decisions without seeking outside confirmation, as an alternative to having a few trusted reliable sources for feedback...I did not understand blaming others part?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    All of us carry that baggage, eh? I am not sure it takes you inherently more time and energy than anyone else to try to heal the inner child of this programming?
    I was trying to say opening myself entirely to outside judgment/perspectives without any filtering would render me paralyzed in a continuous state of introspection and calibration...I would not be able to function properly like that IRL...I do not think anyone else could either...Healing my inner child requires increasing my self-esteem for a more rigid inner core (creating a pseudo-Fi perhaps)...Only then I can safely open myself (my Fe) up to relatively more conflicting external perspectives...I cannot build on a shaky foundation...I first need to convince myself of what I really am and am not...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    No, I don't think it's that Fi is rigid..... I seem to be able to take on multiple perspective simultaneously and hold them all in me at any given time. I do see your perspective even though you feel no warmth from me to suggest so. Fi is judging by increments every moment, fine-tuning all along the way to produce a kind of truth of the matter. It's not about me even, it's just about what is true. Somehow I can feel your inner space and through that hold open a spot for you at my table.
    I think that also has to do with a strong self-esteem (Fi)...Truly knowing (or rather having strong faith in) what you are and aren't...I on the other am constantly doubting and second-guessing myself...That's why a strong self esteem enables you to allow in multiple perspectives but prevent them from shattering or significantly altering your sense of self...hence the rigidity...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    But I am human. And I am annoyed at the turn of this thread and the accusations against me that I see myself as better. Really, that's an Fe tactic to demean MY opinion now. I hold no such intent. I do not feel above anyone. I have no motive to elevate myself at the expense of anyone else.
    I need to feel that you are vulnerable as well...It, for me, needs to feel like we all are chatting and sharing stories about the hardships of life around a campfire or something so that I can heartily share my own...I don't know...Otherwise it feels like I am opening up and you are not...I would much more appreciate to know the stories that underline your conclusions in your posts...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I just tell you what I see. Just because what I see isn't something you like, I can't help that. And you are free to reject this information like anyone else can. But that does not give anyone the right to cause social consequences to me because you don't like what I have to say.
    It's less about whether I like what you put forward but more about what you don't I guess I didn't get the thing about social consequences? I am just expecting you to open up yourself more...Perhaps INFJs are not meant to be a part of this discussion at all...Does it take an alcoholic to discuss about why people get addicted to alcohol and cannot give it up? What would help an alcoholic to open up to tell his/her personal life/story to strangers?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    That's what it did look like above.
    I still think it's my Ni's doing...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Agreed, but again with a caveat: Most people are not viruses invading your space. They're just equally human with unique hang-ups and perspectives, just like you.
    Yes only about one-tenth or so are like viruses...I think I gave you the wrong impression that I have doorslammed most people in my life...There are surprisingly quite some people in my life that I can get along quite well

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    OK...It sometimes feels like I am "policing" too much in the thread...Sorry about that...but it doesn't change the fact that it came across as something else to me...that is my external perspective for you...

  9. #1469
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Guys, I wish you would stop going after @PeaceBaby. She's not some naughty child that needs correcting. If you're offended or uncomfortable by what she says, just say so and try your best to explain why. I'm sure she would be willing to heal the breach. The way some of you are dealing with it is a bit underhanded at times and it pains me to see it.

    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    PeaceBaby : I do not know if the abovegiven applies to you or to this but something in your posts make me uneasy...It feels to me as if you are somehow holding some part of yourself back while asking for feedback to your posts (and I do not think it is about holding some negative emotion back but you believe if you disclosed "whatever it is" we would somehow alter our response?)...it is as if you are reluctant to share personel information/experience...The problem in that is I (and perhaps other INFxs here) have been sharing some personal stuff and by doing that putting myself on the line...and it feels to me that you are not...Moreover, in that way I cannot see where your experience and deductions are coming from...
    Since we're getting all Te here, I thought I'd step in. This isn't directed at anyone in particular (or that I'm picking on you, yeghor), is said without anger or malicious intent, nor do I have a goal in mind other than helping PB to get her perspective across. If it sounds unpleasant it's only because of my sucky communication skills. This is how I read PB recent posts:

    I think she's trying to find some clarity and truth in the matter. She's not trying to pin negative criticisms on INFJs, but figure out why there's a disconnect here. And it seems like there's a lot of disconnect, on many levels, and I think that this is frustrating her a little. What I often feel in these threads (and I believe PB may feel the same) is that we make some progress in understanding one another and then it get's all undone. Just as a INFJ will have trouble accepting information presented in a negative context, INFPs will have trouble accepting a presented position or state of mind when it is undermined by contrary data. It's just hard for us to really believe that you accept a point/fact/POV into your soul (such as a valid criticism), when you then go back on it in one way or another not long afterwards. It's like what I was saying earlier about sensing a sort of internal inconsistency. What happens is that we appear to agree on a point, the discussion continues, and then suddenly some INFJs go back to saying things that suggest you don't agree at all. I think PB didn't really make outright accusations of this because I imagine she thought that you meant well, and probably didn't understand what she was saying, so she thought she could overcome the problem with more patient discussion (ie. this is the IxFP tendency to make adjustments to themselves first if things are going wrong). But when this fails over and over again, it's hard to conceal the growing frustration. I know you guys don't mean to do this back-peddling thing (I don't think you have any clue that you're doing it), but it's so discouraging and it can make us question that you're being genuine or that you were ever open in the first-place. Now I think PB is losing a bit of patience here and it makes it hard for her to keep discussing the facts without being blunt and addressing the problem (as she sees it) more directly. She probably feels like there's a lot of this so-called 'white-noise' and she's trying to cut through it.

    Now the INFJs do seem to be picking up on her frustration and this is making you feel uncertain of her intentions(?) Perhaps you think that she's trying to be nice but has some other factor driving her. Trust me when I say, that if an INFP is trying to be pleasant and respectful, no matter what weird/negative vibe you get from them, it's because they think you are a person deserving respect and decency. I suspect PB was initially trying her best to suppress her annoyance because she thinks it unproductive to the discussion (and perhaps sees it as her own problem that she needs to overcome), rather than out of a desire to keep important information or personal motivations from you all.

    Not this is not said to dismiss any of the reaction of INFJs to this. If you feel hurt, then that's totally valid. I just don't want you thinking that she is concealing negative intentions and is totally alone in her views and observations. I have to admit before I entered this thread, when I was just reading people's posts, I was extremely irritated. I even wrote a rather angry and accusatory post, but thought better of it and deleted it before posting it. I only started posting when I calmed down and was responding in as much of a factually-based manner as possible, rather than emotionally. So we're all getting a bit frustrated about this stuff at times.

    Both PB and I are more than willing to admit that some of the evaluation of these circumstances comes out of previous problems encountered with INFJs (partly in previous threads) - in other words, the past frustrations are being repeated and that just adds to the frustrations. If you're interested and feeling brave, read what those factors are in a post of mine in a previous thread. I don't know whether that will help or hinder, but I'm putting it out there.

    BTW I really am uneasy about all this too. I feel like everyone will think I've got some sort of grudge against INFJs - which is so far from the truth. I can imagine how you guys must feel about this constant barrage of criticism. I just want to clear things up, and for us to get through to one another, but the more I try, the muddier the waters get - then we all get suckered into these epic debates which seem to reinforce the idea that we can't get along. I just don't think that's true and it saddens me when others start to believe it.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  10. #1470
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Part of the issue (I think) is that we communicate differently. So what sounds fairly even and neutral to an INFJ, doesn't really to INFP ears and vice-versa. If you asked a lot of INFJs, I really do think they'd feel they were just relaying what makes them feel uncomfortable and why they think that is in relatively neutral terms. However, I'm seeing that it doesn't sound that way on the receiving end, but I can't really see the impact of what is happening, other than that it is making people feel badly, so I'm not sure how to communicate authentically and still be sensitive to what will be felt as unkind.

    I'm not sure if this makes it worse, but in my view, the issue that there seems to be with PeaceBaby (and at first I thought it was just our collective past baggage, but it seems to be happening with newer members as well) is that her words feel prescriptive, when she has not been invited to prescribe. (And yes, I know that to Fi, this seems dreadfully unfair to be more or less receptive to information due to the way it is dispensed or our impressions of how much we are on the same page with the person giving it, but it seems to be at least on first instinct how INFJs are wired to respond to the world around them). Describing the impact of how we communicate on her and then leaving it for us to mull over probably would be more successful.

    I've noticed the frustration that you are talking about Southern Kross, regarding breakthroughs and what feels like backtracking. It might be important to keep in mind that one way of looking for weak spots in what we are saying is to state it in more definite terms, but then have someone point out the shared views, and then discuss the parts that don't seem to fit. It might be that collective judging thing that was discussed before. I think it is a way of coming to common consensus.

    Secondly, I think it also maybe needs to be factored in that it takes some time for us to assimilate new information and build it into our framework. While there may be some verbal assent, the implications and a deeper understanding of how it fits with everything else need some time to settle. In the same way that it will take a long time for me to figure out what factually backs up the initial feelings or reactions that I have to something, or why something doesn't sit right, it also takes some time to try on new information on many different models for consistency and for universality before understanding or trusting it enough to find a home for it in the skeleton of my core understandings. I often look like I'm not open initially to new people or new information, when in fact it takes me time to warm up to it and figure it out. Similarly, it takes time for me to cool off (in the sense of not believing it anymore or becoming more distanced from it) when I get new information that invalidates something that I believed to be true before or information that is really foreign to my thought process.

    Southern Kross, I can see you have made huge efforts to speak my language, so that your words can be heard with an open mind. I also appreciate knowing what sentiments of yours align with PeaceBaby's. I also would be the first to acknowledge that I am abysmally poor at speaking INFP. I don't have enough real life experience to know how to do it authentically, and I fear that it will end up sounding insulting or way off the mark, rather than easing things.

    In an attempt to be accurate, I don't think that hurt is necessarily the main reaction that INFJs are likely to feel. For various reasons, I think it is more likely to be annoyance - either at inaccuracies or at being directed. Over several threads, I'm seeing that this is another difference in reaction between us. I don't know if it's INFP specific, or Fi, but strong emotions like hurt, outrage, etc seem to come to the forefront, while I think INFJs are more likely to use words like frustration, disagreement, annoyance. I suppose there are whole discussions that could be devoted to the ins and outs of all that, but in interests of heading down a likely path, I wondered if it was useful to point out this difference, as it may lead to very different conclusions about reactions, motivations, etc.

    I don't want to contribute to making anyone feel badly. I don't want my non-engagement of PB to be misread as trying to leave her out in the cold or being cliquish. It's more that I have found in the past that something about the way we both are communicating is not working for the other person. I don't know how to change it while still remaining authentic to myself. I don't think it is fair to say that she is the one that must make all the adjustments for me. However, I don't think we are starting from common enough perspective to successfully discuss some of this stuff without my inadvertently hurting her, and I don't want to do that, so I have tried not to make it worse by saying too much to her directly. I don't feel that we can't get ever along, but rather that there's some kind of disconnect that until I can identify it and figure out how to work around it, will keep working as a barrier. So instead I am trying to talk to people I feel I have more common ground with to start from to see where their views converge with hers and if there is a way I can connect with them successfully, to better understand her point of view. It takes time, and every time that process is interrupted, it takes more time still!

    Whatever you can mirror back from your perspective is useful to me to go into the mix of how I evaluate what is working and what is not working in the way I am relating.

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