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Thread: When an INFJ doorslams you / cuts you out of their life / breaks off contact

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    reborn Array PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    And now my pendulum is swinging in the other direction: I need to return to Ni-Se perception and reduce the prominence of Fe-Ti dynamics in my internal processing systems. This trajectory began about a decade ago and is still unfolding. Yes, it takes a long time.
    Thanks for your whole post. It was quite eloquent and opened me to your world. I appreciated it. Your self-journey sounds remarkable.

    See, it's this kind of unsolicited advice that (at this point in my life) gets me irritated with Ji-doms.
    Here is what I know - I've tried to live in my world through Fi - Te alone. Screw all the rest of the functions. It didn't work.

    You are allowed to be critical of my extrapolation, and you're right, I'm not offering all of the other supporting evidence I have to back up that advice, and it seems like I offer nothing but my own opinion and am not proving it with any perceptual data. So you're right to question it. And yes, everyone is on an individual journey. Of course, everyone's trajectory is unique.

    I suggest you spend more time trying to understand better and less time trying to give INFJs some supposedly urgent message about what we should do.
    I hear you - it's about credentials. Perhaps over time I'll be able to offer something more palatable.

    eta: Hey you did Fe me! Very nice.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  2. #1452
    reborn Array PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    well, first and foremost, people don't like to feel like they are simply "outer world data." if you are asking for their experience to help you balance your ability to aggregate experience into a generalizable one, then it can be tricky if you're not willing to wait for them to finish answering in their own terms. they're giving you something. i know i've, in my impatience, done this many times. it is tricky with infp-infj sometimes, because it can be hard to translate, and the more vulnerable, the less willing to put things on record in terms and forms and types of structures that are outside your comfort zone.

    second, pe isn't just outer world data. it's also the ability to observe yourself. sometimes this is a more productive way of working on a 5-year backlogged issue that has arisen for you. this is partly where the other side, the j side, can help. it can offer lenses to examine your own experience, and then allow those perspectives to dissolve into an awareness of what happened for you. if you are still having feelings about it, you can still examine those as they are. the present is always a way into yourself, because you're always carrying around shit that habituates your response. furthermore, to ask others to table your judginess with respect to it, to feel either inculcated in your condemnation or potentially offended if they take it personally, is just awkward. that's the joy of working with anger in relationship. just that extra edgy, sharpness flying around. cut or be cut. the critical perspective e1 and its neighbors (e4 and e7) bring often purport a kind of rightness vs wrongness thing, like that's the work that's being set out to be done. decide how exactly this is wrong and how this is wrong. it's difficult not to do it. it's difficult to express more directly what our needs are and to even pay enough attention to ourselves to take ownership of that, and to take ownership in a way that the responsibility to meet them primarily lies with us rather than with what we expect others to provide for us. in this situation, and this is a generalization, we need a way to feel like we are not being judged. hell, the first response in the thread, fid, was all that needed to be said. then the fact that much of this is not type specific, without really hearing an acknowledgement of that, is frustrating. to discuss how Fe might close off differently than Fi closes off when withdrawing, that's fair and interesting. but it's about a pejorative name for a behavior that people associate only with this type. i even tried to explain that Fe types can be a bit more out of water trying to clean up relationship messes when it comes to DISCERNING their own needs. i'd think 9s would be able to empathize with some of that experience.

    third, you seem like a hard worker who is willing to contribute more than your fair share. that drives a lot of good activity on the message-board, and i know that i am not usually willing to follow through to that degree. i can appreciate that, but i also feel frustrated, where i, in some sense, and this is somewhat bizarre, partly out of friendship and partly out of simply similarity, feel defensive on behalf of z in your last post. when i identify, i read it feeling that i am being condemned, that i am being judged, that i can just smell your assumption that i am wrong. you might feel the same way here. there's not really that much attachment, like in real life, asking us (the sides of the debate and the specific conflicts), to work it out, to stay whole. to me, that's a time when the devil's advocate thing feels more dug in than an offering. even if it's prefaced with an acknowledgment of personal fallibility in somewhat corresponding ways. maybe that's a problem of not focusing on what we actually need ourselves. for me to offer vulnerability, i need to feel supported. it's really that simple. if i am being reduced to an obstacle for a process, without really even identifying with the intention behind it and connecting to an attitude i trust, it just ain't gonna happen. unless i'm in a really, really good place, and i feel like i can connect to my own needs enough to center myself, stay focused on what i can control, and not allow others perceptions and attitudes to overtake me, to inform me, yes, but not to be my only anchor in reality. still, to have the focus on me be this without recognizing the corresponding process in yourself and empathizing with what individuation is like (a slow, gradual process of recognizing the limitations in our inherent specialization), will feel unfair to me. i won't like the presuppositions i feel underneath the surface, and i won't really want to offer up as much of myself.

    fourth, i said it before, but a lot of this shit is e4. the first page kind of characterizes it. look how much shame is there. look at the post about away, toward, against. look at fid's. theoretically, that seems like a needed foundation to see it clearly. or we're not really grounded in anything other than just claiming anyone who abruptly cuts ties must be an infj. it just doesn't really make sense. i've cut ties, largely out of shame issues. out of an inability to feel open to connecting with others who i wouldn't feel would understand or appreciate me. i gave up on that, and i recognize that part of that was a need from myself to just withdraw during a phase of being "in-shaming." that's it. now i have a bit better social skills to be able to articulate how my actions reflect my needs, so there is not as much overt and implicit blame on others for my needs not being met and for "causing" my actions.
    I'm going to quote this whole thing for the awesomely ironic "perceptions" offered up.

    Let's just take a look at what they are slyly inferring:

    1.) That I don't know how to make an effective post soliciting opinions.
    2.) That I don't "wait" for people to answer on their own terms because I am impatient, insensitive and ungrateful.
    3.) That it is hard to do that because it's hard for you too, so *pats me on back of hand* I'll learn!
    4.) That I don't have sufficient awareness of the outside world.
    5.) That in the outside world, I should try to have a better awareness of myself because I'm tantamount to clueless.
    6.) That I have a 5 year backlog of Pe data to work through because I lack awareness and don't do enough self-work.
    7.) That pondering on perpetual adolescence is actually some kind of latent ISSUE for me, something that irks me.
    8.) That this is where having a J around would REALLY REALLY help me see clearly. (Listen, I'm married 25 years to an ESTJ, it doesn't get more J than that!)
    9.) That a J type would give me a better perspective of myself too because I don't see what I am missing. *pats hand again*
    10.) To expect others to have to deal with the way I am wired, present information, etc is impolite.
    11.) That somehow I am angry and have an anger issue.
    12.) That somehow I am not taking ownership of my own needs and that's irresponsible.
    13.) That for whatever reason as an e9 I am not as empathic to the doorslammer as you imagined I would be. (Since I have my own anger issues and all. And I do! I'm e9.)
    14.) btw, saying someone is a hard worker is a kind of pejorative to say they're not intelligent but they work hard enough to make up for it.
    15.) That my posts are decent enough to generate some activity on the forum so they do serve a purpose and that's good.

    I could go on. But perhaps I've made my point?

    You have just said to me "(INFJs) need a way to feel like we are not being judged". Yet I be seeing a WHOLE lot of judging in your post! Just like you perceive a satellite of judgements in mine!

    Pot meet kettle much? I mean, really, let's laugh about it, because isn't it just so funny?

    Anyways, thanks for your thoughts and feedback, I will do what I usually do with INFJ perceptions and ruminate on them endlessly trying to be a "better" INFP and try to jump through a million unspoken hoops to avoid triggering another avalanche of perception served up judgement-style.

    Seriously, I know you don't mean them like that, so I happily give you the benefit of the doubt. But I could be upset about them if I chose to be...

    eta: listen, why don't we just say INFPs suck in the outer world and INFJs suck in the inner world? Can we then call a truce?

    eta2: the funny thing is, I do see what I am missing, it's not like there's not grains of truth up there - but since the J world reminds me of what I lack continually, since I was a child, it doesn't feel very invisible.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  3. #1453
    Vulnerability Array Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    See, it's this kind of unsolicited advice that (at this point in my life) gets me irritated with Ji-doms. In this case: Choosing one INFJ as your poster child for what INFJs should do? No. We're each moving in our own trajectory, there are reasons why you see the pattern of lamenting Fe aux that you see, and in my view, you really don't know what's best for all or even most of us - you really truly do not.
    And yet, as that so-called poster child, I see INFJs telling INFPs what to do, also. So, I think the playing field is rather even. Tit for tat.

    I've seen the same "poster child" type posts from INFJs, too. Praising those INFPs who bend the way we would like them to bend as far as communication style or agreeing with our assessments of ourselves. Perhaps we interpret our own actions differently than we interpret the same actions from other types, though. Just a thought.
    Johari / Nohari

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    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Thanks for your whole post. It was quite eloquent and opened me to your world. I appreciated it. Your self-journey sounds remarkable.
    Glad to hear that you appreciated the post!

    Here is what I know - I've tried to live in my world through Fi - Te alone. Screw all the rest of the functions. It didn't work.
    Your experience is specific to you. Generalizing outward from your experience onto others, and especially onto someone(s) with different cognitive function stacks, isn't useful IMO.

    As for me - this is a process. I think if this goes well, I'll end up strongly and joyfully centered in Ni-Se perception. With that centering, I think I'll be using Fe and Ti in different ways than I have in the past. I can already see glimmers of a different approach to my Fe-aux, a sort of reversal of its polarity, and have done a little bit of action from that space - it's interesting and promising so far (but very new). And I also need to figure out how to "feed" my Ti, give it something useful to do, because it's a very curious active part of me and won't ever go away. There's some semi-delicate stuff going on around that for me right now (feeding Ti curiosity) and I don't know where it will lead.

    But using Fe as you suggest is not well for me. And Ni-Se perception needs to be at the core, the center, for me, in a very real way.

    You are allowed to be critical of my extrapolation, and you're right, I'm not offering all of the other supporting evidence I have to back up that advice, and it seems like I offer nothing but my own opinion and am not proving it with any perceptual data. So you're right to question it.
    Also, you're quite simply incorrect when it comes to me and what is happening for and well for me, in particular. That won't change with more supporting data from your Si database or Te deductive generalizations. Unless you can expand your understanding past where it is now, to allow for my lived experience and reality that doesn't fit into your existing model, you will continue to be incorrect when it comes to me on this particular topic.

    I hear you - it's about credentials.
    No, it's about accuracy and contextual, nuanced understanding of varied lived experience (outside your own experience, and outside whatever values, Si database, and/or logical model you're using). You are incorrect in the judgement-advice that you seem to be applying to all INFJs, when it comes to this INFJ (me).

    I don't want you to prove anything with perceptual data. I want you to allow for perceptual data that doesn't fit into your current understanding, and expand your understanding accordingly.

    Perhaps over time I'll be able to offer something more palatable.
    Palatable? To me, that word implies a difference in presentation, not content (I can also hear the judgement behind that word, but don't want to get into that because don't want to put the Ti energy into something like that). Anyway, no, that's not what I'm seeking. I'd prefer to see if you can actually (and humbly) take in new information that doesn't fit with your current frameworks/arguments etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    And yet, as that so-called poster child, I see INFJs telling INFPs what to do, also. So, I think the playing field is rather even. Tit for tat.

    I've seen the same "poster child" type posts from INFJs, too. Praising those INFPs who bend the way we would like them to bend as far as communication style or agreeing with our assessments of ourselves. Perhaps we interpret our own actions differently than we interpret the same actions from other types, though. Just a thought.
    I think the whole public poster child approach generally isn't useful regardless of where it comes from (unless someone directly asks for that as a data point in a specific exchange).

    Also: I don't know how broadly you're defining this pattern, but I also think there's a difference between thanking someone or praising their contribution in a "wow, that was really great/helpful/etc" kind of way on one hand, and saying "This specific person is how [type] SHOULD act/communicate etc" on the other.

    eta: I realize that that that second point assumes that the first kind of statement is ("wow, that was really great/helpful/etc") is literally honest and not some passive-aggressive manipulative tactic in some dysfunctional dynamic. I haven't been here long enough to know what's up with that in these discussions. I can say that if I say "that was helpful" or "that was accurate" etc, that's quite literally what I'm saying. Hope this makes sense.

  6. #1456
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    I don't want you to prove anything with perceptual data. I want you to allow for perceptual data that doesn't fit into your current understanding, and expand your understanding accordingly.
    You don't know mine, I don't know yours. We're even then, I guess.

    This is tantamount to the following:

    You first. No you. No, after you! I couldn't, you go first. Age before beauty! Beauty was a horse ... Well, please allow me the favor of going after you ... and on we go!

    Anyway, I don't want to argue, you stepped into a post with a long history behind it, of course you can't appreciate fully why I said what I did.

    Would you like to reset and start again between us?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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    Vulnerability Array Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    I think the whole public poster child approach isn't useful regardless of where it comes from (unless someone directly asks for that as a data point in a specific exchange).

    Also: I don't know how broadly you're defining this pattern, but I also think there's a difference between thanking someone or praising their contribution in a "wow, that was really great/helpful/etc" kind of way on one hand, and saying "This person is how [type] SHOULD act/communicate etc" on the other.
    Praise, from another point of view, is just an indirect way of saying "This is an example of how [type] should act/communicate etc", because praise attempts to encourage more of the same behavior, just as punishment attempts to discourage unwanted behavior.

    So, I guess that leaves us back at trying to figure out intent. What was intended by the praise? What was @PeaceBaby's intent in mentioning me? Maybe it's interpreted as "This is how [type] should act/communicate etc" because that would be our intent it if we said it? From our pov? What if it's interpreted differently from another pov? Is there another way to interpret it?

    Or maybe it means exactly what it says. In which case, what's wrong with that? It's not as if we're not telling other people what to do, too. And it's an internet forum. No one can force anyone to do anything they don't want to do. One can always say "no" and let it go at that.

    ETA: Just to clarify, I see nothing wrong with the direct or indirect methods. One isn't "better" than the other.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    eta: I realize that that that second point assumes that the first kind of statement is ("wow, that was really great/helpful/etc") is literally honest and not some passive-aggressive manipulative tactic in some dysfunctional dynamic. I haven't been here long enough to know what's up with that in these discussions. I can say that if I say "that was helpful" or "that was accurate" etc, that's quite literally what I'm saying. Hope this makes sense.
    Quoting Eilonwy was illustrative, not endorsing. I don't give anyone Fe strokes. For me, it's not about behaviour.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  9. #1459
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    (snip)


    I think that- because J types tend to have a more forceful tone- Ps project *a lot* of certainty into what we're saying that truly isn't there. I suspect many Ps are so certain of their perception of it that they don't believe it's projected- it maybe seems like there's no way someone can have that tone and not be certain.....but I believe the reason most INFJs back away from acquaintanceships is because there's so much uncertainty surfacing about the interpersonal dynamics with someone that it gets overwhelming. There's this "I don't know if it's you or if it's me, but something about this has become more effort than it's worth" element to it, I don't know how else to describe it. I think that everyone experiences that feeling every now and then- but we seem to experience it at the drop of a hat.

    I think the reciprocate may be the 'manipulation' and 'playing stupid' it seems like NFPs do- it's really hard to imagine not having access to those parts of my memory that prevent me from even attempting to put forward the kinds of 'raw batter' that NFPs do. I could either trust it really is their blind spot- even though I can't imagine what that would be like to not remember details that would render what I'm putting forth obsolete- or I can assume they really do remember the details and they're just trying to see if they can get away with it/checking to see if I'm stupid enough to buy what they're saying (which is how it appears).

    more eta:


    Yep. The inability to take in criticism and allow for realities that aren't flattering- though the exact manifestation may vary according to 'type' (with some 'type' commonalities that surface)- is not, in itself, type related. While Ni may back away without being able to say anything, Ne tends to blast people with self-serving shape-shifty logic (without much concern for how it's making people on the other end feel, because empathy has been shut off).
    @Z Buck McFate (sorry if I have the @ symbol incorrect, I'm a n00b and don't yet know how to parse spaces within user names)...

    I only joined a day or so ago and this thread looked interesting.
    1) don't know about INFJs (sorry!) but I can attest to the seeming certainty attributed to Js by Ps, on the basis of INFPs I've known. They seem to like listening to it, especially if based on Te.
    2) speaking of INFPs, what on earth do you mean by "raw batter" ? I'm usually good with metaphors (being an INTJ with *strong* Ni) but this one eludes me.
    3) I do agree about the "something about this has become more effort that it's worth" when dealing with someone who seems clueless, not only about their social delivery, but even about *themselves*...
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    Vulnerability Array Eilonwy's Avatar
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    And, @Werebudgie, it occurs to me, that calling me a poster child, in whatever context, indirectly trivializes anything I have to say. I don't appreciate that. No one has to agree with what I say, or like what I say, but I would appreciate it not being characterized as insignificant or trite.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

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