User Tag List

First 4494134142143144145146154 Last

Results 1,431 to 1,440 of 1696

  1. #1431
    Not Sexy. Not ENFP. Starry's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    5,077

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    I came up with two scenarios:
    I did not forget about these Eilonwy! I've read them over quite a few times and appreciate them very much. (I had/have been sick and thought...of all the threads in existence in the universe today...this would be the number one thread to avoid when under-the-weather )


    1) When I was younger, I used to actually believe that if I suffered it would somehow either relieve or make up for the suffering of others. Perhaps he thought that he was somehow atoning for telling you off and being wrong. I realized that this type of thinking wasn't very realistic, but it's still kind of there.
    ^^I have a story for you haha. When I read this first scenario I about fell out of my...bed (I almost said seat but the truth of it... I was in bed haha)...this is just very remarkable to me...

    I recently said in another thread that I don't always trust myself with NFJ typings. I mean, I think I went back and forth between reading the general INFJ description...and staring wide-eyed at my sister holding her INFJ test results in her hand a hundred times over... "Soooooooooo...you...relate to this do you? You feel this describes you well...this description fits you? Are you sure? Here, why don't you just read it over one more time..." <-no exaggeration here...this conversation took place as presented. And yes, she was starting to get pissed at me for questioning it haha (her switch almost flipped so I was all..."because I think it's you to a tee...that's what it is...INFJ sister" and disaster was averted.) I know a different kind of INFJ.

    A long standing friend from my childhood... I've always suspected she was INFJ but again...if she is she falls way outside of your standard INFJ description. She did precisely what you outlined in 1. And it freaked me out so bad I did an accelerated drifting away from her (or a whimpy, half-hearted ENFP version of the doorslam.) I mean, I remember telling Z Buck "I've doorslammed someone before..." but of course I couldn't remember why I did. I think I just indicated to Z that my friend was being unbearably depressing or something...but she was doing exactly what you wrote about. She had betrayed another friend in a very bad way...but she wouldn't confess (?). Instead...she punished herself. She restricted herself from everything and wouldn't allow herself to have any fun. She put herself into suffering. And me as a young e7? It was...I don't even have the words. But she still wanted to hang-out with me during the suffering (?)...but it caused me such a great deal of anxiety and I had to do the 'insta-distance.' So interesting Eilonwy.



    2) I can get very attached to my explanations of what's going on. Add to that, that something in me makes me feel that I have to be perfect and right. To admit to being wrong can be embarrassing and shameful to me. To have hurt someone can also be embarrassing and shameful to me. Unfortunately, the shame from the former (being wrong) can actually overwhelm the shame from the latter (hurting someone), and I will selfishly nurse my own feelings instead of prioritizing the feelings of the person I hurt.
    As an ENFP e7 child...I grew-up wrong. I expect to be wrong haha. So I have no attachment to being 'right' and have a difficult time understanding this as well. But I definitely think this was a factor. I believe he also knew I would have given him a large piece of my mind... he had treated me so poorly, blaming, condescendingly...I would not have minced a single word. And I'm assuming he wanted to avoid that (which bothers me frankly because not understanding it well...it seems cowardly. So you can do all of this...but you won't stick around to see what you started through? Hmmm.) And I do know he was nursing more shame than I will experience in my lifetime. I saw sorry on his face - I did. God, he would walk up to me and stand there shaking. I do know he was truly, truly sorry...so I want that known.

    thank you for everything Eilonwy...I appreciate it so much.
    لا تستطيع كسر المكسور

  2. #1432
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    4w5 so/sp
    Posts
    2,912

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    i like this. i've come to understand the key verb for Fi not to be "to choose" but to be "to discern." i think Fi seems to be a way to center one's awareness in the confluence of the consequence of an action, in terms of how it is received. it's not so much about an intention as it is about an affect, a shift in quality of experience. using this information, collected thru experience, helps one understand the needs others have both in terms of specifics but also in terms of universals (read: generabilizably similar).
    I very much agree and the distinction is important.

    nfps just have a strong sense of social, relational forces and their embodiment. for instance, with so type infps, i've seen a marketing/demographics savvy that comes from understanding how key paths shape the kinds of needs people have (as a result of where they've come from and how the forces in play in those spaces affect their experience in other ways. p types in general have a much, much deeper feel for place).
    This is so interesting. It would be great if you expanded on it.

    this seems well-spoken to me. Te helps you be conscious of how you organize your process methodologically. it allows you to have a grounding outside of the whimsicalness of the moment and have a process to compensate for the times when you lose an awareness about your awareness, when your mindfulness collapses and loses its shape, its openness. it helps you automate, build useful habits, make testable predictions, and relieve some of the p burden to see all the stories in all of their glorious different-ness. it focuses on concentrated integration, rather than organic flow.
    Exactly. You explain this so well. I think you're right in that this is moving away from the organic response, towards a conscious and deliberate method. I respect the Fi insight, but it isn't enough on it's own; it must be informed, shaped, ordered and tested.

    do we have an equivalent to this?i feel like the same could be said for us in terms of our well-described, increased emphasis on "expectations" in comparison, which is a big part of how we navigate the world, by trusting our ability to make predictions that feel harmonious with our sense of purpose. at this stage, a big part of how we assess has to do with an interplay between attitude and aim. will these body of gestures, done in this spirit, generally harmonize or disharmonize this crucial aspect of what needs to happen? will it help put us on the same page, build a strong, adaptive, functional team, and ultimately share purpose, or not?
    Yes I wondered about equivalents. So do you mean Ni tries on predictions as 'potential Perceptions'? Can you further explain how this works? And how does Se play into this?

    however, you can completely deflate an expectation of mine by showing me where you're coming from and how that expectation affects you. but for it to register, sometimes i need it to be both direct and patient. describing what has happened for you. and owning your feelings so that i am not the cause of them, but that i do have an opportunity to appreciate your needs more fully. that's one of the greatest gifts to come out of relationships, the way it opens me up. at the same time, sometimes the way it happens feels like an attack to me, and then the ability to empathize starts to get pulled apart into an anger black hole. fear and anger just impair my ability to connect to a deeper, more centered awareness of what is happening, seen through my own observations of my own needs and the way those observations help me centre my ability to relate to other's vulnerability and what it is like to be in their space.

    i think, as a dynamic, we might have extra challenges to resolve when we conflict bc we don't have a lot of "process common ground," as our socio-cognitive processing styles struggle to share pieces as they are, in the process of being constructed; nevertheless, if we can recognize how to create an emotionally intelligent environment to deal with shit, that doesn't matter as much. we can figure out how to ask for what we need and recognize how to coordinate a process more effectively. in my own experience, our paths cross too often, our purposes as ego types too overlapping, to not learn how to create a healthy, flexible way of participating in each other's paths.
    There's a lot for me to process in this. I have no desire to deflate someone's natural manner of vibing on a situation/idea; I don't like to break their flow without good reason. I struggle to understand that expectation, because expectations are such a no-no for me. I feel that perhaps if I understood it better I wouldn't feel offended by it, but it's hard for me to grasp it even as you guys explain it - even as I know the value of it in theory. I do think there's a way forward with it, like you say. I've noticed my INTJ friend has found ways to better achieve a Ni slant on a conversation without it feeling restrictive and directive. I can remember a conversation he and I and his ENFP sister had that was very interesting and very successful in this regard. He guided the discussion, but left it to me to process the factors on my own and come to my own conclusion (which I very much appreciated). I think it may have been partly due to a development in my own willingness to let go of the reins and let him be a little perceptual directive, as well as keep listening past the time I think anything of significance is left to say. It was one of those few times when I truly felt (momentarily at least) I internally grasped Ni and was fascinated to see it's insights and feel it's effects. Still, it's mysteries elude me, and that is perhaps the problem. I need to internalise the thought process of the other person to be able to fully appreciate what they're saying. With Ni I'm just not fully there yet - and without the meaning behind the words, I can't feel the affect.

    the recognition of this, to me, is a big part of why i have appreciated many infp friends. the ability to play devil's advocate, to balance the story context, is a really great skill, especially when it's done in a way that helps reveal and clarify essential human needs. they know how to write a great character novel, to situate the social forces in play on that narrative process, and to help create a way in to how those feel when you experience them firsthand.
    I'm glad you recognise this. It's such a hard thing to get across. How can you tell people, "I'm saying these things, but they don't hold any meaning for me personally. It's part of a process that is more important" or, "this view doesn't reflect the whole of my thoughts/views. There are many positions I hold that are in completely contrast to this attitude, but they are not incongruent with it". It just sounds crazy, convoluted, and potentially, hypocritical or disingenuous.

    A while back I participated in a thread discussing the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and got into a lot of trouble in this regard. For the most part I was attempting to occupy a relatively neutral position but that meant pushing back and offering the opposing perspective when people said something that strayed too far from the middle. Then I get accused of being biased towards the other side and being unwilling to listen, which was not the case at all. I felt like I was the most unbiased person there and was listening twice as hard as everyone else. It's just important to me that people made decisions based on the complex myriad of factors or else I struggled to accept them. Like what @PeaceBaby was getting at, I have to accept that their evaluative process is fair and considered before I can listen to their conclusion. And if I hear them saying something that conveys ignorance of perceptual data, I have to push back - even if I agree with them. It's a little silly when you look at it like that.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  3. #1433
    I want my account deleted
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    6w5
    Posts
    401

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I don't think this is even a value; I would see it more as a part of correct operating procedure for Fi. I'm not saying it always works like that (bias is inevitable), but I think it's something we become aware of and aspire to in order to find consistency and clarity. Aiming for balance and neutrality is actually a manifestation of a need to remain perceptually open, rather than the other way around.

    I feel like this comes when we start to integrate Te into our lives. Our personal Judgements matter to us but they mean nothing if they don't fit into a larger scheme, or if they are undermined by our own hypocrisy. I can remember the time when I stopped making those instantaneous, impassioned, leaps in Judgement and learned to put on the brakes and think about it first. I wanted my evaluations to count for something. I wanted them to stand up to scrutiny. So I need to wait until I have more relevant information. I need to wait until I have tested whether my preliminary Judgement will work in a universal setting. I need to wait until I can assess if this Judgement is congruent with my other ones and with my behaviour in the past. I need to wait before committing to it; before putting my name on it and opening it up to scrutiny.
    Integrating Te? This is very interesting to me. I've been really into the dominant-inferior (Ni-Se) integration process in myself without really knowing if or how such a process fits into MBTI or Jungian thought. I just know it's necessary for me.

    And in the background, I've been wondering about integration of the inferior and dominant outside of my own trajectory and type. Especially wondering if or how such integration would be relevant to a judging dom in general and an INFP in particular. My own Ni-Se integration is so deeply deeply perception-based (reducing my dependence on Fe and Ti, and with that, freeing up a lot of energy for me when I allow things to flow perceptually) that it's like my brain almost can't process the concept of how integration of two judging functions could possibly make things better or easier for someone.

    I'm still struggling to understand. Could you tell me if I understand correctly here?

    Sounds to me like you're saying that when integrated, Te judges Fi and that the Te approach to judging helps keep Fi from yielding leaps of judgement unsupported by sufficient information. Am I getting this so far? Please correct me if/where I'm wrong.

    And then there's the question of HOW Te would provide this service to Fi. And from what I can understand so far, you're saying that Te's standard of deductive, objective logic keeps Fi's subjective leaps in check. Again, please correct me if/where I'm wrong.

    And - @PeaceBaby - you mentioned Te-inf from a couple of very different angles in our PM dialogue. I'm curious to know what you think about this Te integration process and if there are any connections or disconnections between this Te integration process and how you were talking about Te.

    No, I think it's compatible. I often have discussions in this manner with my FJ Mum: we throw around ideas and perspectives until we can tease out potential conclusions. We can totally agree in our conclusions but we integrate those conclusions into our thinking in different ways. The same idea can click for us in a slightly different manner but the outcome can ultimately be the same.
    Is your Mum a Ni-dom FJ? I ask because if she's a Si-dom you have common ground between her dominant and your tert, and if she's a Fe dom you have shared ground of being judging dominants (which would remove the weird power dynamic between J-doms and P-doms or at least Ji/Pi doms). And beyond cognitive function common ground, there may be something especially freakishly difficult about Ni for non-Ni-doms, it sees to me.

    At other times it can be more like wearing one hat of the many I own. I may say negative things about INFJs in this thread, but that's just one hat; whereas all the rest of my hats could hold very positive views of INFJs. And in wearing that hat, I'm not forgetting about all the other ones I own - I just need to choose one for the situation, because there has to be an angle that I use to approach things (like selecting what language we're going to speak for the occasion). I suppose the neutrality is in having many hats of very different natures, but not having any preference or being committed to a favourite. You may see me wearing one hat but that doesn't mean I'm necessarily making a fashion statement - nor does it mean I don't own a bunch of other hats in a totally contrasting style.
    I've seen my INFP partner do some version this, for sure. The way she describes it is that whatever she is saying is how she feels at the moment not overall. Your example of negative/positive things about INFJs is interesting to me, because one of the things that can really gets to me is that my partner might get upset and go off about XYZ that she doesn't like about me or some truly horrifying (to me) cynical interpretation of what I'm doing or why, and then later it's done and she's moved on - but her words and energy continue to echo inside of for a long long time. (Note: I don't feel that way about your negative views of INFJs, but that's because I don't know you, my boundaries are up as a default, and so we don't have a connection allowing your perspectives into me at this time. eta: Also, I think don't really care what anyone says about INFJs as a group as it's not an identity for me but rather a set of cognitive processes).

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    It was one of those few times when I truly felt (momentarily at least) I internally grasped Ni and was fascinated to see it's insights and feel it's effects. Still, it's mysteries elude me, and that is perhaps the problem. I need to internalise the thought process of the other person to be able to fully appreciate what they're saying. With Ni I'm just not fully there yet - and without the meaning behind the words, I can't feel the affect.
    What does Ni feel like to you when you do encounter it and try to internalize it? Meaning, what is the experience like for you, encountering Ni?

    I think it may have been partly due to a development in my own willingness to let go of the reins and let him be a little perceptual directive, as well as keep listening past the time I think anything of significance is left to say.
    And am I correct in understanding that one thing that worked for you in that experience with the INTJ is your willingness to not be in control in certain ways? (specifically this):

    I'm glad you recognise this. It's such a hard thing to get across. How can you tell people, "I'm saying these things, but they don't hold any meaning for me personally. It's part of a process that is more important" or, "this view doesn't reflect the whole of my thoughts/views. There are many positions I hold that are in completely contrast to this attitude, but they are not incongruent with it". It just sounds crazy, convoluted, and potentially, hypocritical or disingenuous.

    A while back I participated in a thread discussing the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and got into a lot of trouble in this regard. For the most part I was attempting to occupy a relatively neutral position but that meant pushing back and offering the opposing perspective when people said something that strayed too far from the middle. Then I get accused of being biased towards the other side and being unwilling to listen, which was not the case at all. I felt like I was the most unbiased person there and was listening twice as hard as everyone else. It's just important to me that people made decisions based on the complex myriad of factors or else I struggled to accept them. Like what @PeaceBaby was getting at, I have to accept that their evaluative process is fair and considered before I can listen to their conclusion. And if I hear them saying something that conveys ignorance of perceptual data, I have to push back - even if I agree with them. It's a little silly when you look at it like that.
    I recognize this pattern from my partner. One struggle I've has with it is that it seems to assume that the other people need you to provide balance. In that, IMO, it's not silly so much as possibly kind of patronizing.

    Example: When she and I were first getting to know each other, I mentioned my aversion to New Age practices, and sent a link to the Declaration of War Against Exploiters of Lakota Spirituality. She responded by trying to get me to "see the other side" of the issue and consider the perspective of a white person who truly doesn't want to do any harm but just needs some spiritual tools and depth in her life, and is that person really so wrong to seek that out from non-European cultures.

    What she didn't know is that the perspective she offered is one that I had already seen and heard about a million times (hyperbole, but it sure feels that way). The reason is that this other side she believed I needed to see comes straight from a common dominant culture script and if white people are involved in the dialogue, it pretty much always ALWAYS comes up one way or another as a response to any criticism like the Lakota declaration. Having heard variations on this script so many times before, I really didn't need her or anyone to "get me to see the other side." The other side had done a great job of asserting itself into my field of vision without her intervention. In fact, the other side was really freaking loud and persistent and had been in my face for a long time before she decided she needed to show it to me for my own good apparently in order to (from her perspective) usefully challenge my one-sided view.

    In that case, I wasn't coming from

    ignorance of perceptual data
    but rather from an overload of certain frameworks that were loud and exhausting and had pushed themselves in my face over and over and over again for years. But my (then) new INFP acquaintance didn't know that and so she assumed she needed to provide balance and get me to see things that she judged I wasn't sufficiently seeing.

    I felt like I was the most unbiased person there and was listening twice as hard as everyone else. It's just important to me that people made decisions based on the complex myriad of factors or else I struggled to accept them.
    IMO the thing missing from this perspective is (or appears to be) a deep sensitivity to the intelligence and/or deep contextual experiences of the people you're interacting with. It's like, and maybe I'm misunderstanding here, but will plow ahead for the moment and say: it's like you decided you knew what they needed to see or hear in order to make decisions by the standard you feel they need to use. You considered yourself "the most unbiased person there" which elevates you above the people you're interacting with.

    And in positioning yourself this way, you may be missing or not seeking out important context. So for example, using my experience above: Maybe some of them have already processed tons of the very perspective(s) you think they need to consider to be balanced by your standards. Maybe they aren't interested in engaging with that yet again because it's exhausting to deal with the same-old same-old stuff (to them). I can tell you that I myself personally have gone through a very VERY deep painful messy process and dialogues to figure out the beginnings of how I feel about the Palestine-Israel situation, that my relationship to that topic isn't only theoretical but has deep threads into my ancestry and family and cultural patterns and other connections, and that my energy on that topic would be very carefully used and conserved if I were to discuss it in any public arena.

    (then again, I avoid internet I-P discussions like the plague, so maybe no one there is like me).

    Hope the above isn't too harsh. I'm being really blunt here.

  4. #1434
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    2,433

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    It doesn't ping for me because seeing it MY way (as an individual) is not the issue, not accurate here. I would not not looking for others to see it MY way. That's way too limited and individual-based for me.

    Instead, I'd be looking to collectively develop OUR way of seeing it. Does that illuminate the difference?
    This reminded me of a GPS positioning device trying to establish connection with as many (reliable) satellites as possible so as to pinpoint its current location and increase the accuracy of its deductions (like error correction and calibration)...So, my understanding is that that is like trying to come up with an exact/wholistic/3D perception of the issue at hand...So my understanding is that you are checking whether your way is as wholistic/complete as possible or not... Whether it needs further tinkering...and reliability/credibility/consistency of the information source is important in that regard...

    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    What works for me is centering as much as possible in my own organic landscape (Ni and Ni-Se perception). This is true in this relationship and in the rest of my life as well. It's an interesting struggle, with the constant pull from the external environment to center in other landscapes. Strengthening my muscles to be able to shift back into my organic landscape when I am pulled out is one strategy.
    So you are trying to be more self-centered? Trying to rein in Fe-aux? Trying to think more individually rather than collectively?

    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    I say the above because my response to your comment about exploration is this: what I really need for my own wellness, from anyone in this world, is real, true, clean support for me to move from my organic perception and landscape. And that doesn't always happen in the interactions with my INFP partner.
    Originate or come instead of move, perhaps?

    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    At this point in this relationship, I'm really just trying to re-center in my own organic Ni-Se perception and move from there. I've currently given up on us being a unit in my collective sense of the word. And while that may become possible someday, and I'm certainly not closed to that ... I feel that at this point it's more important for me to be as centered as possible in my organic Ni/Ni-Se perceptual landscape. In order to actually breathe.
    Reliable friends (preferably not related with your SO) would also come handy in such cases to regain your sense of self and re-calibrate your perception and thinking I guess...

    Eta: Perhaps when your SO expresses her (preliminary) judgments with so much conviction (i.e. self-perceived accuracy?) that makes you give those jugments far greater weight then you normally would, which in turn creates a gravitational pull/distortion in your Ni landscape, forcing you to a certain part of the landscape and preventing you from freely navigating through the landscape so that you could observe the issue at hand from multiple perspectives? So that forces you to a certain perspective and to a resulting judgment?

    So you are basically trying to recenter yourself in the Ni landscape?

  5. #1435
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    9w1
    Socionics
    INFj None
    Posts
    9,827

    Default

    That reminds me of the feedback loops my I?FP daughter and I used to get into before I figured out how to calibrate for her accurately. We used to escalate each other like crazy. We do okay most of the time now as long as we both get enough sleep.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  6. #1436
    I want my account deleted
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    6w5
    Posts
    401

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    This reminded me of a GPS positioning device trying to establish connection with as many (reliable) satellites as possible so as to pinpoint its current location and increase the accuracy of its deductions (like error correction and calibration)...So, my understanding is that that is like trying to come up with an exact/wholistic/3D perception of the issue at hand...So my understanding is that you are checking whether your way is as wholistic/complete as possible or not... Whether it needs further tinkering...and reliability/credibility/consistency of the information source is important in that regard...
    That seems accurate to me.

    So you are trying to be more self-centered? Trying to rein in Fe-aux? Trying to think more individually rather than collectively?
    I am unable to think individually in any deep way. This goes beyond Fe as an aux cognitive preference in me. It's something even deeper about how I'm made or wired or something. (Fe sometimes appears to map to this deeper collectivity in me, and I feel like that mapping is itself a problem that needs to be untangled in me).

    So anyway, I'd describe it more as centering in deep raw perception and the visceral knowing and responses that exist in that space. This is a clearer more breathable space for me than judging. This means shift away from the prominence of Fe-aux and Ti-tert (in me, Ti seems to correct for harm caused by Fe) - and a reclaiming of Se in service to Ni as a navigational compass for action.

    Originate or come instead of move, perhaps?
    For me it's actually "move." I can be in the same situation and experience it from different landscapes by moving in one or another. Each landscape has its own markers and topography. Like different layers of reality-perception. So for metaphorical example, if a tree is in front of me in one of the landscapes but doesn't even show up in another landscape, and I'm running for some reason, I will move to avoid running into the tree in the first landscape, but not even see it to adjust action in the second.

    Reliable friends (preferably not related with your SO) would also come handy in such cases to regain your sense of self and re-calibrate your perception and thinking I guess...
    I have found this to be true.

    Eta: Perhaps when your SO expresses her (preliminary) judgments with so much conviction (i.e. self-perceived accuracy?) that makes you give those jugments far greater weight then you normally would, which in turn creates a gravitational pull/distortion in your Ni landscape, forcing you to a certain part of the landscape and preventing you from freely navigating through the landscape so that you could observe the issue at hand from multiple perspectives? So that forces you to a certain perspective and to a resulting judgment?
    Almost. But it's not that it pulls me to a certain part of my Ni landscape. Instead, it pulls me out of that landscape altogether, and into another one.

    So you are basically trying to recenter yourself in the Ni landscape?
    Yes. Ni and Ni-Se (as I increasingly integrate Se in service to Ni perception). However - my SO isn't the only source of this pull out of my organic landscape. It comes up in various contexts. It is perhaps specifically challenging to have it come up in a personal connection of this depth and intimacy.

  7. #1437
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    4w5 so/sp
    Posts
    2,912

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    I've been really into the dominant-inferior (Ni-Se) integration process in myself without really knowing if or how such a process fits into MBTI or Jungian thought. I just know it's necessary for me.
    So how does Ni-Se intergration work for you?

    It's partly about keeping it in check. Fi is very instinctual. It's like being hit with the answer without doing the working, or perhaps before you even know what the question is. I think that maturity as a Fi user is in realising that even though you may have the answer, you have to go back and do the working to double-check anyway.

    And I'm not saying that the Fi insights are wrong; they just may need refinement through the order and the concept of the universal that Te provides. The insights might be too specific and contextual; they might be too disorganised and opaque; they might not have considered the obvious counter-arguments; they might be lacking in objectively verifiable evidence to back it up; they might give us no indication of how to apply it or what to do about it etc - and these things have to be addressed for it to be an effective Judgement. It's like I have an inner Te-dom who is very much unimpressed with airy-fairy, waffley Fi and needs more to be convinced. I have to make this person happy, perhaps even defeat their criticisms, so I can feel secure in my position. If they're not happy, I need to figure out why. Usually it requires refinement or repositioning through Ne-Si information. If the insight is plain wrong (which is not frequent) then I have to make a little Te memo to myself about an exception to the rule. These sorts of memos are counter-intuitive to me, but must be obeyed regardless, because they are there to help overcome my blind-spots.


    She's a ISFJ - so you're right we do have Si in common, but you seemed to be speaking of more Fe related factors. I realise Ni will have a different influence on the conversation, but sharing perceptual information does come naturally to me, and I can appreciate the intuitive leaps of Ni because Fi does a similar thing. Of course, an adjustment is necessary but what I mean to say is that it's not insurmountable.

    Yes, exactly. I do wonder if it's harder for FJs to grasp how dispassionate FPs can be about feelings/responses/sensations etc; dispassionate in expressing/discussing it, or in that we can totally commit to the feeling and then completely move on. I have great difficulty in bearing grudges, not because I'm virtuous and forgiving, it's just that after a few hours or days, I'm totally over it. I just stop caring. One of my personal values I've developed (I suppose it's one of those Te memos) is to not unleash when I'm angry. My instincts are screaming at me to tell that person exactly what I think, but the memo reminds me that in a few hours I won't care, it's just irrational nonsense, and/or I may regret it, so it's better not to act on it. It's important to me (over the long term; not in the moment) to figure out what strong feelings are worth expressing and which ones aren't. I'm not saying this works 100% - with people close to me it can be hard to keep to the value. It's possible that your INFP has the same value and gets a bit slack about adhering to it with you too. I guess you have to find the right line between her learning when to hold her tongue and you learning to cope with her criticisms.

    The other thing you have to be aware of is that for INFPs (well it is for me, I'm not sure if the others agree), that we have 2 emotional worlds: one temporary and superficial, and one enduring and deep. The two can have little affect on one another and can be completely in contrast with one another too. I can be happy and upbeat in a moment, but that has no impact on a underlying sense of melancholy. So on the surface your partner could seem like she hates you more than anything, but that may have zero reflection on an underlying respect and appreciation of you.

    What does Ni feel like to you when you do encounter it and try to internalize it? Meaning, what is the experience like for you, encountering Ni?
    Externally it's a very hazy and strange thing. Yeghor described my posts as seeming ethereal (which I was surprised about) but this can be how Ni is to me. Internally, it's even more interesting. It can creep inside my head like tentacles and get into the drivers seat. When I'm really getting its vibe, it feels like it's working my mind in this bizarre back-to-front, inside-out way, but somehow it feels natural and right. That probably doesn't make sense at all, but it's difficult to describe.

    And am I correct in understanding that one thing that worked for you in that experience with the INTJ is your willingness to not be in control in certain ways? (specifically this):
    No... it's something different. It's not a matter of information, but of grasping the 'meaning' of that information; I need to grasp the significance of what they're saying in a way that works for me. With Ni it requires both that the Ni user will use the right approach (ie. not force the issue) and that I will let them in my head so to speak. I suppose I also need to stop processing the information NJs offer in Si terms, because with Si information the meaning is much more obvious to me. I need to wait a little longer for the stuff to click, and this requires patience from both parties. I suppose a Te memo may be necessary here.

    I recognize this pattern from my partner. One struggle I've has with it is that it seems to assume that the other people need you to provide balance. In that, IMO, it's not silly so much as possibly kind of patronizing.
    Yeah it is a bit I guess. I've been told that by others before, in not so many words.

    Yeah, that's pretty foolish IMO too. As long as you aren't subtly undermining her views (making her feel the need to defend them), you are well within your rights to call her out on that, even within the bounds of INFP logic. She should accept you views on this and not force the issue, especially seeing as it relates to something as subjective and personal as spirituality. She should know better...

    I suppose that sounds arrogant to say that, but if you read the thread you would probably agree with me. I even had a INFJ on my side

    And in positioning yourself this way, you may be missing or not seeking out important context. So for example, using my experience above: Maybe some of them have already processed tons of the very perspective(s) you think they need to consider to be balanced by your standards.
    Yeah, I can admit that this can be a problem with me.

    Oh, yes I'm very sensitive to these things. I have respect for people feeling attached to certain perspectives due to their history or background. I don't expect a (non-Palestinian) Arab would see the Israelis as I do and with good reason. I don't disregard their views because of it. Some aspects will always be subjective (you don't have to tell a INFP this ). I do still require a certain level of rationality in those views, though. There's a difference between a personal slant and prejudice, for example.

    Hope the above isn't too harsh. I'm being really blunt here.
    Not at all. It's helpful
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  8. #1438
    I want my account deleted
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    6w5
    Posts
    401

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    So how does Ni-Se intergration work for you?
    For me, it's opening myself up to Se and trusting that very grounded sense-based information flow in relation to Ni. As far as I understand it, Ni-Se perception was my default when I was a child. Then I had a physical trauma that disconnected me from my physical self in some ways. Afterwards, I got really really confused and disoriented about WTF was going on around me. Ni is awesome but the Ni landscape is (or appears to be at least) kind of in another realm not acknowledged by the dominant cultural system all around me. I find it hard to relate to the external world here only from Ni.

    So with the loss of Se access, I developed Fe-aux to help me understand some of what was going on around me (this time the people layer). It worked, but Fe-valued material can be very harmful for me. Ti developed to counter Fe-aux. The Ni-Fe-Ti dynamic is very draining for me, but I do it and do it. Se, serving Ni, gives me a way to move that's - well, it's gorgeous to me, actually. Pure perception mode.

    Se has to serve Ni for it to make sense to me. Truth is, my Ni landscape and the external world here aren't in opposition. Things like ecosystems, interconnected webs of diverse elements etc are all over the place on this planet and that meshes very well with how things work in my Ni landscape. Living in a cultural system that opposes such interconnectedness in cultural and physical ways makes it really hard for me to perceive the underlying physical realities here from Ni perception alone. Opening up to Se in service to Ni allows that. And again, I instinctively did this when I was a child but lost access to the Ni-Se mode.

    Hope that describes it okay.

    It's partly about keeping it in check. Fi is very instinctual. It's like being hit with the answer without doing the working, or perhaps before you even know what the question is. I think that maturity as a Fi user is in realising that even though you may have the answer, you have to go back and do the working to double-check anyway.
    Interesting! It's like the opposite of my struggle - I default to an elaborate process of double checking too much to the point of unnecessary energy drain (Fe-Ti dynamic), and my development/maturity challenge is to trust my perception (with Se integrated and serving Ni).

    And I'm not saying that the Fi insights are wrong;
    Hahahahaha! Of course not! (sorry, that is so INFP, or maybe Ji dom, to my perception). Anyway, back to the actual content:

    It's like I have an inner Te-dom who is very much unimpressed with airy-fairy, waffley Fi and needs more to be convinced. I have to make this person happy, perhaps even defeat their criticisms, so I can feel secure in my position. If they're not happy, I need to figure out why. Usually it requires refinement or repositioning through Ne-Si information. If the insight is plain wrong (which is not frequent) then I have to make a little Te memo to myself about an exception to the rule. These sorts of memos are counter-intuitive to me, but must be obeyed regardless, because they are there to help overcome my blind-spots.
    How do you know that your inner Te-dom (which is really Te-inf) isn't serving Fi by providing selective Te ways for Fi to refuse external critiques and prove to itself that its judgements are correct at their essential core, as Fi seems to assumes nearly always is the case?

    (this is a real question)

    She's a ISFJ - so you're right we do have Si in common, but you seemed to be speaking of more Fe related factors.
    Yes, I just reviewed the context and you're right, it was about individual versus collective. I think Fe gets tangled up with something else in me, and that's why my attention goes to Ni. The way things work in my Ni landscape is intrinsically collective in its underlying physics. This is not the same as Fe at all, but it gets tangled up with Fe in me. Another way to put it would be, because my Ni landscape is intrinsically collective, I chose Fe-aux as my way of making sense of the world around me when I lost access to Ni-Se. Anyway, this is kind of a digression, maybe.

    I realise Ni will have a different influence on the conversation, but sharing perceptual information does come naturally to me, and I can appreciate the intuitive leaps of Ni because Fi does a similar thing. Of course, an adjustment is necessary but what I mean to say is that it's not insurmountable.
    The "Fi does a similar thing as Ni" comment makes me uncomfortable, and I find myself somewhat resistant to expending the energy to figure out why. It just feels like a projection of your dom function onto mine that might somehow be plausible, but that really isn't accurate. These two functions are REALLY different, despite appearances, IMO.

    Yes, exactly. I do wonder if it's harder for FJs to grasp how dispassionate FPs can be about feelings/responses/sensations etc; dispassionate in expressing/discussing it, or in that we can totally commit to the feeling and then completely move on. I have great difficulty in bearing grudges, not because I'm virtuous and forgiving, it's just that after a few hours or days, I'm totally over it. I just stop caring.
    I totally see this in my partner.

    One of my personal values I've developed (I suppose it's one of those Te memos) is to not unleash when I'm angry. My instincts are screaming at me to tell that person exactly what I think, but the memo reminds me that in a few hours I won't care, it's just irrational nonsense, and/or I may regret it, so it's better not to act on it. It's important to me (over the long term; not in the moment) to figure out what strong feelings are worth expressing and which ones aren't. I'm not saying this works 100% - with people close to me it can be hard to keep to the value. It's possible that your INFP has the same value and gets a bit slack about adhering to it with you too. I guess you have to find the right line between her learning when to hold her tongue and you learning to cope with her criticisms.
    She has a double whammy when it comes to anger - not only what you describe, but also she's enneagram 9w8 and 9s are notorious for their anger issues. Before we met, she had learned to suppress it for the most part, but as she has pointed out recently, suppression is a huge energy drain. She hates being angry.

    When it comes to me: She has pretty consistently held me responsible for provoking her anger - so basically her responsibility is limited to not reacting to what she names as "having her buttons pushed" by me). That's a huge nasty problem IMO, the partial displacement of responsibility for her anger from her onto me. I'm taking baby steps with this piece, the first step being trying not to accept and internalize the partial responsibility she assigns to me for her anger.

    I find it interesting that anger is an issue for you as well but your enneagram is different. I tended to source her anger much more to the 9 in her than the INFP. @PeaceBaby mentioned my partner's grumpiness on something as possibly somehow related to Te inf in a PM, but your Te seems to be keeping anger in check. Still trying to understand all of this!

    The other thing you have to be aware of is that for INFPs (well it is for me, I'm not sure if the others agree), that we have 2 emotional worlds: one temporary and superficial, and one enduring and deep. The two can have little affect on one another and can be completely in contrast with one another too. I can be happy and upbeat in a moment, but that has no impact on a underlying sense of melancholy. So on the surface your partner could seem like she hates you more than anything, but that may have zero reflection on an underlying respect and appreciation of you.
    This seems like it could be accurate to my partner; I'll ask her about it if I remember to do so.

    Externally it's a very hazy and strange thing. Yeghor described my posts as seeming ethereal (which I was surprised about) but this can be how Ni is to me. Internally, it's even more interesting. It can creep inside my head like tentacles and get into the drivers seat. When I'm really getting its vibe, it feels like it's working my mind in this bizarre back-to-front, inside-out way, but somehow it feels natural and right. That probably doesn't make sense at all, but it's difficult to describe.
    I was looking for a description at this level, so this is great! Thank you! Again there's an issue of who's in the driver's seat. What's hard for me to get is how it feels natural and right to you - and the reason this is hard for me to get is that I cansee my INFP responding to most of your description with a push to not allow the tentacles in and certainly not allow such an externally sourced thing to be in the drivers seat for her!

    No... it's something different. It's not a matter of information, but of grasping the 'meaning' of that information; I need to grasp the significance of what they're saying in a way that works for me. With Ni it requires both that the Ni user will use the right approach (ie. not force the issue) and that I will let them in my head so to speak.
    Hmmmm ... could you give me any concrete examples of what forcing the issue versus not forcing the issue is for you in interaction?

    I suppose I also need to stop processing the information NJs offer in Si terms, because with Si information the meaning is much more obvious to me. I need to wait a little longer for the stuff to click, and this requires patience from both parties. I suppose a Te memo may be necessary here.
    There's something pinging for me in that - processing in Si terms, needing not to do that. I don't know about other NJs, but as a Ni-dom there's something in that for sure. I don't know what it is yet.

    I can start by checking my understanding of Si for an INFP. My partner has described Si as a sort of data-created map, based on accumulated data and related patterns of past experience, that she can use to understand what's going on. Of course, this is my understanding of what she's said to me. Does this seem accurate to you in terms of your Si? If not could you correct me/expand etc?

    Yeah it is a bit I guess. I've been told that by others before, in not so many words.
    Glad to know I'm not the only one who's said this (*sigh* freaking Fe-aux)

    Yeah, that's pretty foolish IMO too. As long as you aren't subtly undermining her views (making her feel the need to defend them), you are well within your rights to call her out on that, even within the bounds of INFP logic. She should accept you views on this and not force the issue, especially seeing as it relates to something as subjective and personal as spirituality. She should know better...
    When we first met and were having sustained dialogue as friends only, she kept trying to "get me to see" things that she assessed I needed to see, and she seemed to believe it was for my own good. At the time, for me, it seemed like she hadn't ever met a true peer or something - and that on some layers of interaction instead of reciprocal teaching and learning, she default positioned herself as the one who would teach others. I wondered if she just, for some reason, needed to be on top in certain kinds of interactions. (this may speak to why I can't see her ever allowing those Ni tentacles into her and especially not into her drivers seat!)

    In other ways, she was much more open to learning too, but there was this pretty significant thread of our initial interactions that seemed to me to come from this "being on top/being a teacher/seeing more clearly than others" thing. I really did wonder if she just hadn't previously met anyone who was a true peer before. This "on top" dynamic has shown up in other ways throughout our relationship and at this point, I'm almost viscerally allergic to it even in a very mild form.

    Anyway, when I told her where I was coming from with the New Age stuff, she did back off and asked for patience as she learned me and got to know me. But then, there was a subsequent point - a real fight we had - and afterward, as part of the "where do we go from here" phase, I had to articulate some hardcore boundaries and say there are going to be things I will choose not to engage with for my own reasons, and while she accepted those boundaries, I think she also noted something about how such boundaries are strange for someone who wants to know the truth.

    Again, there are aspects of how she moves that are much more open and oriented to learning (though she seems to learn via Si, which takes a LONG time and has a huge database to overcome where I don't fit with her existing map).

    I suppose that sounds arrogant to say that, but if you read the thread you would probably agree with me. I even had a INFJ on my side
    You could not pay me to go look at such a thread. *reconsiders* Well, maybe upwards of tens of millions of dollars .... maybe then. Anyway, I know that certain kinds of debates are pretty insane and I-P stuff can really really go there.

    Yeah, I can admit that this can be a problem with me.
    After I posted my comment, I had this thought: Is it possible that you sometimes apply to other people the Te standards and processes that you need to balance your Fi? (I'm thinking: this would be a problem for those who don't need that Te balance given our own different cognitive configuration)?

    Not at all. It's helpful
    I'm really glad to hear this!

  9. #1439
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    4w5 so/sp
    Posts
    2,912

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    That's interesting, but I'm not sure I totally understand. So you're saying your default is distrust of your Ni perceptions and it's about learning to make the leap/commitment to an idea? If so, that's very strange to me and not at all what I expected.

    And do you feel a sort of zen connectedness between yourself and your environment when you integrate Se? Like a sense of order and flow between the inner and outer worlds?


    How do you know that your inner Te-dom (which is really Te-inf) isn't serving Fi by providing selective Te ways for Fi to refuse external critiques and prove to itself that its judgements are correct at their essential core, as Fi seems to assumes nearly always is the case?

    (this is a real question)
    Do you mean, how do I avoid self-confirming bias? Like employing Te to justify an inaccurate Fi insight? Is that what you mean?

    That's a tough question. It's not something I consciously think about but I feel like it doesn't happen frequently (you may disagree). The mental testing phase is important to avoid this - Ne-Si should be able to pick up when it's just not truthful, applicable or functional. And the thing is I do still constantly question my Judgements, even after I've relatively solidified them. If I come across something that conflicts with it, I don't just shrug it off; I have to figure out a solution. Either I have to explain that situation away (ie. work out why it's different or doesn't apply) or make adjustments to the value/insight. Fi-Te has a strong nose for truth: Fi usually gives off a nagging feeling that something's wrong, even when it's more inconvenient to accept it, and that inner Te-dom is more than willing to call bullshit on any attempts to dishonestly eliminate the anomaly. So I can be quite hard on myself. This is why INFPs are obsessed with 'authenticity' because our Judging functions can be harsh taskmasters; they won't let me get away with being untruthful, even with myself - even when it would be so much easier to do so.

    But I suppose there's always a chance it can happen.

    It's strange that you see your auxiliary function as a means to compensate. I personally feel like Fi and Ne go together so incredibly naturally - like they were made for each other.


    The "Fi does a similar thing as Ni" comment makes me uncomfortable, and I find myself somewhat resistant to expending the energy to figure out why. It just feels like a projection of your dom function onto mine that might somehow be plausible, but that really isn't accurate. These two functions are REALLY different, despite appearances, IMO.
    Oh there are plenty of differences but the similarities are there. What I particularly meant is how both are idealistic and prone to make leaps that are hard to justify in objective terms. They're gut instincts that we each really trust, but it can be hard to get others to recognise and respect what it offers because it doesn't "make much sense" externally. I understand how that feels, so I'm inclined to give Ni the benefit of the doubt. Of course, it's easier to do this when nothing's at stake than when there's something on the line.

    9s notorious for anger issues? No way - I seriously struggle to see that. Are you sure she's a 9 and not a 6 that integrates to 9 a great deal? My Dad's a 9w8 and I literally haven't seen him lose his temper since 2002. I can remember the exact event.

    Yes, I'm a rather irritable and bad-tempered person really, but I bite my lip so much that most people wouldn't know it.

    I was looking for a description at this level, so this is great! Thank you! Again there's an issue of who's in the driver's seat. What's hard for me to get is how it feels natural and right to you - and the reason this is hard for me to get is that I cansee my INFP responding to most of your description with a push to not allow the tentacles in and certainly not allow such an externally sourced thing to be in the drivers seat for her!
    I actually thought of better an analogy after I posted. It might help clarify things.

    So imagine I'm in the cockpit flying the plane and a INxJ walks in:

    INxJ: This isn't going to work. *start flicking switches and turning knobs - completely changing the configuration of the plane*
    Me: What are you doing?!
    INxJ: Something's wrong. I've got to do something about it.
    Me: There's nothing wrong! Stop trying to change those things! You'll make the plane crash.
    INxJ: No I won't. *continues changing things*
    Me: Yes you will! Clearly you haven't you read the manual, done the training course, or got enough experience to know better. All that stuff is important to keeping the plane flying.
    INxJ: The plane will fly my way too, and it will be better. Anyway don't you see a storm is coming. We've got to prepare.
    Me: I don't see any storm. You've just got here - what do you know? None of what you're doing makes any sense and I didn't ask for your help anyway! I can fly this plane however I want.
    INxJ: Just trust me. It will be better. *takes over, flies the plane and avoids the storm*
    Me: WTF! How did you do that?!

    When it operates well, it can be an amazing feeling. It can feel like magic working on me - which can be just thrilling to feel and see. There are 3 difficulties though: a) it can be very hard to trust someone else with piloting the plane (perhaps especially so for INFPs?); b) the Ni-doms perception can often be totally counter-intuitive to me; and c) sometimes Ni-doms fly the plane in ways that are totally irresponsible. These factors can feed into each other too: if I see you flying irresponsibly once, it's hard for me to let you go of the yoke later on, even if you're right. And if I can't perceive what you're trying to do or how it will work, it's hard for me to trust it in the first place.

    Hmmmm ... could you give me any concrete examples of what forcing the issue versus not forcing the issue is for you in interaction?
    I can't think of a specific example of forcing the issue. It mostly comes from telling me the way things are and then detailing how there couldn't be any other explanation.

    Not forcing it is like the discussion I had with my INTJ friend. We had just finished watching a movie which is part of a series. He had watched it before and obviously had a very strong view on the problems with it. He also obviously wanted to get this point across and have me agree. But instead of instructing me, he started by asking questions. He asked about specific things and whether they bothered me. I disagreed with him initially and stated that I'm not personally bothered by those things and didn't think there was a problem with it. He offered counter-arguments that were not didactic and explained the possible problems these flaws could create for the series. I still disagreed, but he slowly discussed the matter and eventually it clicked for me what he was getting at. I then agreed with him overall, but retained some minor disagreement over some aspects. I really appreciated the way he went about it. He patiently let me explore the factors myself and go through the motions of evaluating them (even though this wasn't useful for him). He was never condescending about it, nor did it feel like I was just being pushed towards a goal against my will. I also really enjoyed the feeling afterwards, for the novelty of being persuaded in such a odd (Ni) manner, and out of gratitude for my views being validated at the same time. I suppose it was like he let me fly the plane but stood over my shoulder and gently persuaded me to consider the problems he saw.

    I can start by checking my understanding of Si for an INFP. My partner has described Si as a sort of data-created map, based on accumulated data and related patterns of past experience, that she can use to understand what's going on. Of course, this is my understanding of what she's said to me. Does this seem accurate to you in terms of your Si? If not could you correct me/expand etc?
    This is pretty much it.

    This is very interesting. I get what you mean abound not having met a true peer; that's what it can be like. Not necessarily in an arrogant way - just that few people can have such an interest in and clear understanding of the underlying elements of life. I wonder... perhaps she overstepped the mark with the New Age stuff purely because she considers you a true peer. That's a problem I can have with INFJs - we can feel so much on the same page, that I can get lazy and assume they'll will appreciate or understand what I'm doing (even though it's not an approach I would ordinarily use).

    You could not pay me to go look at such a thread. *reconsiders* Well, maybe upwards of tens of millions of dollars .... maybe then. Anyway, I know that certain kinds of debates are pretty insane and I-P stuff can really really go there.
    Don't worry. You don't have to do it.

    After I posted my comment, I had this thought: Is it possible that you sometimes apply to other people the Te standards and processes that you need to balance your Fi? (I'm thinking: this would be a problem for those who don't need that Te balance given our own different cognitive configuration)?
    Very rarely. I don't hold people to the same standards. I usually think of it as a personal problem, not necessarily something common to others. If the subject comes up and someone else mentions struggling in that regard I might explain that Te standard and how it helped me, but I wouldn't enforce it.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  10. #1440
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    MBTI
    INfJ
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    3,530

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    So, at a certain point, it may become too costly to continue interacting closely with certain people. This is doubly true when one considers how NFJs tend to use the judgment of others as a means of calibrating their judgments of themselves. Someone who gives inconsistent feedback is like a distorting mirror that may be 100% accurate one moment, and wildly distorting another. This leads to self-doubt and mental and emotional exhaustion over time.
    I’ve been thinking about this and I think it’s worth mentioning that- at least for me- it doesn’t even really do justice to how disorienting this is to call it a distorted image in a mirror (though still, I loved Seymour's post). Because at least if I’m looking in a mirror and that mirror is telling me one arm is two feet longer than another- I can always look down and directly check my arms. There's no immediate relief with Ni- it can take forever to make sense of, sometimes years. The whole reason I’m so careful about whose judgment I begin to take in without much filtering in the first place is because it’s so difficult for me to immediately do this sort of direct check. A mirror can tell me that one arm is longer than another, and silent alarms will go off that something isn’t correct- and it can take forever to figure out if it's my own perception or if it's the other person and sometimes I back away because it's just too much distraction (not because I'm certain I'm right). If I’ve come to rely on someone’s judgment being sound and I get some bad intel from them…..it’s genuinely and thoroughly disorienting. It’s almost like a “this could change everything I think I know” kind of a feeling. And once I sort out that the new intel is indeed ‘off’ (that it's likely more their perception than my own)- I can’t help it, that person is bumped down the ‘tier mechanism’*. Sometimes it turns out to be something of a fluke and it's like a hiccup in the relationship (eventually disappears)….but it’s always noted and more experiential data is needed to know what to do with it.


    *Since new people don’t have access to my blog or just haven’t heard this phrase before, if anyone is even interested:

    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

Similar Threads

  1. When any type other than INFJ doorslams you/cuts you out of their life
    By SilkRoad in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 46
    Last Post: 02-03-2014, 11:26 PM
  2. [INFJ] INFJ Daily Life: Plans, Strangers,etc?
    By plaminal in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 11-13-2011, 12:13 AM
  3. [MBTItm] INFJ negotiating mid-life
    By Immaculate Cloud in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 03-21-2009, 09:04 PM
  4. [INFJ] INFJ, inner life a little too rich?
    By littledarling in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 36
    Last Post: 02-18-2009, 02:23 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts