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  1. #1421
    Senior Member Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Seymour, you're like, my hero. (I agree with much of what you wrote up there. eta: Especially, "steal a lot of mental bandwidth and emotional energy". It's not even that I will think someone is inconsistent and unreliable....I'll just think they're too inconsistent and unreliable for me. I practically always see it in terms of my own threshold, instead of seeing them as definitively 'black' or 'white'.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    All this, if true, makes the "door slam" effect a bit more explainable. One problem, though, is that all the precipitating events are visible or obvious to the door-slammed until it's too late.
    I've gotta ask, did you mean to type "aren't" here?

    And (if yes) I agree, this is a problem. I have been aware of it for a long time (that I'm not being clear enough in the way I say "this is a problem" to someone).....and yet I still very much struggle with it. eta: Because I don't know, there will be times I actually feel like I'm yelling it- and it's still not clear? Anyway, yes, this is a big problem. People don't hear the silent countdown going on in my head.
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  2. #1422
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I've gotta ask, did you mean to type "aren't" here?

    And (if yes) I agree, this is a problem. I have been aware of it for a long time (that I'm not being clear enough in the way I say "this is a problem" to someone).....and yet I still very much struggle with it. eta: Because I don't know, there will be times I actually feel like I'm yelling it- and it's still not clear? Anyway, yes, this is a big problem. People don't hear the silent countdown going on in my head.
    I did mean "aren't," there. I'm the king of typos, sadly.

    And I admit, that's one of my big personal fears interacting with NFJs... since I'm not that "momentum" aware, I fear I'll be written off without even knowing it.

  3. #1423
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    Therefore (especially for NFJs), inconsistent and unreliable people steal a lot of mental bandwidth and emotional energy, because their actions raise a whole host of nagging questions: Are they not the person I thought they were? What's their motivation for their behavior? Should I use a different criteria to judge people as trustworthy? Was it my own behavior that triggered the change in their behavior?

    So, at a certain point, it may become too costly to continue interacting closely with certain people. This is doubly true when one considers how NFJs tend to use the judgment of others as a means of calibrating their judgments of themselves. Someone who gives inconsistent feedback is like a distorting mirror that may be 100% accurate one moment, and wildly distorting another. This leads to self-doubt and mental and emotional exhaustion over time.
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  4. #1424
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    I did mean "aren't," there. I'm the king of typos, sadly.

    And I admit, that's one of my big personal fears interacting with NFJs... since I'm not that "momentum" aware, I fear I'll be written off without even knowing it.
    Seymour, I think you did an excellent job of describing some of the thought process about mental bandwidth. Thank you for doing that so eloquently.

    I don't think the sudden, irrevocable doorslam happens very frequently (except maybe with people who have habitually poor communication in other observable ways as well?). There are very few cases that necessitate any kind of sudden withdrawal. Maybe at worst you might notice a slight withdrawal or distance as a person tries to decide how to carry on the relationship in the way that works best. Honestly, one of the problems about letting people know what is coming is that sometimes I don't know what is going to be the straw that breaks the camel's back till it is broken. I know little things that bother me along the way, and I am much better now at flagging them (both in my own consciousness) as well as letting the other person know that there is a small issue. Depending on the way the other person responds, it either becomes totally insignificant, or it just is one puzzle piece that could emerge as a full blown, recognizable picture when one more (or 25 more or 100 or 1000 more puzzle pieces are added). I know that for someone who has a more solid personal perspective and whose emotions are their very identity, that may sound crazy - like how COULDN'T you recognize how you feel until it is too late? It is really, really difficult for me myself to assign significance to a piece of information until a pattern emerges, or it doesn't emerge (and I realize that it's just me, or it's an isolated incident, or it doesn't denote any bigger, deeper issues). I don't give up on the familiar very easily. Even the acquaintances on my "route" every day would be missed if they disappeared. Similarly, I warm up to the people that have been there for awhile, simply because they have become a part of my day. With people I have invested in emotionally, and whom I have allowed into the inner recesses of my identity, I am very reluctant to ever terminate the relationship. It is only when I feel I have exhausted all possible avenues and no longer have hope, or that our visions are so opposite that the constant conflict created can never produce a productive collective judgement that I could consider stepping away. Even then, that process takes a long time.

    In short, I guess what I'm saying is that if someone can give me a reason to hope that things could get better, or that we have some common ground, I don't think that any distancing or doorslamming is a permanent condition, or a desired one (unless the hurt suffered has been too great to want to make myself vulnerable to it again), nor is it one that initially would have happened lightly or suddenly.

  5. #1425
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    And I admit, that's one of my big personal fears interacting with NFJs... since I'm not that "momentum" aware, I fear I'll be written off without even knowing it.
    *nods*

    You know, we talk of inconsistencies a lot. INFJs, what are inconsistencies to you? Aside from the obvious (where people say one thing but do another) can you make a list of things you see as inconsistent or provide other non-obvious examples?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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  6. #1426
    I want my account deleted
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    So, at a certain point, it may become too costly to continue interacting closely with certain people. This is doubly true when one considers how NFJs tend to use the judgment of others as a means of calibrating their judgments of themselves. Someone who gives inconsistent feedback is like a distorting mirror that may be 100% accurate one moment, and wildly distorting another. This leads to self-doubt and mental and emotional exhaustion over time.
    That's just amazingly accurate and insightful, from my perspective. I never thought about it that way, but that's very very true. And inconsistent feedback isn't about content or level of critique, it's about accuracy - like the metaphor suggests, accuracy and distortion. It's not so much that everything has to be correct in the first try (or second or third), but if the quality of the feedback is inconsistent, it can get extremely draining and even harmful to me. If someone is willfully ignorant about their own biases, and/or is offering feedback from an agenda, stuff like that ... yeah, it can be as you describe.

    *shakes fist at Fe-aux* leave me ALONE already, you incredibly irritating cognitive process!

    All this, if true, makes the "door slam" effect a bit more explainable. One problem, though, is that all the precipitating events aren't visible or obvious to the door-slammed until it's too late.
    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    And (if yes) I agree, this is a problem. I have been aware of it for a long time (that I'm not being clear enough in the way I say "this is a problem" to someone).....and yet I still very much struggle with it. eta: Because I don't know, there will be times I actually feel like I'm yelling it- and it's still not clear? Anyway, yes, this is a big problem. People don't hear the silent countdown going on in my head.
    I feel like this is kind of a dilemma. For me, I am not going to do a doorslam until I do it.

    Threatening a doorslam in advance just isn't - it doesn't make sense for me, on a lot of levels. So what I end up doing is communicating that there's a problem. But it's like, "No one expects a doorslam!" (yes that is a Monty Python reference)

    But seriously, it sometimes seems to me that the only real way to prepare anyone for a doorslam is to say "If you don't X, Y or Z, I will cut you out of my life" - and to me that seems like some manipulative threat, and in any case just isn't in resonance with how I move in the world.

    I'd tentatively say that anyone concerned about being doorslammed by an INFJ might want to pay really good attention to what we say when we mention problems in the relationship. Which seems like a lot to ask. (Is it? I don't know.) I know I myself don't generally make a huge screaming fuss about it.

    My INFP partner will just go OFF sometimes about how upset and angry she is and what I'm doing to make her so upset/angry. It scares me, actually, because it seems so dire, it feels like she's about to immediately leave me when she does that. She tells me that that isn't what it means to her, that's just how she feels at that moment and she's venting.

    I tend to be "quieter" about my concerns somehow. That said, I do communicate when things aren't feeling okay with me. I just don't put the emotional ooomph behind it that others might need to understand how dire it actually is, and I will never use a threatened doorslam as some sort of ultimatum to try to provoke change, or even vent in a way that uses the doorslam option as material.

  7. #1427
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    So you believe it is related to 'nurture'?

    Personally, I don't ascribe to that when it comes to MBTI. I believe you're born that way and will face certain trials and difficulties as a result of your own type's inclinations. I do believe there is very much a nurture element to all people but I think of this as being more related to enneagram.

    This is not to force my views on you - that's just my view of it.

    No, I don't need (external) emotional abundance, and I don't think total emotional openness is an ideal by any means. I can get a bit stressed out when in situations where there's too much emoting going on. I also think that a certain amount must be withheld - to preserve the feelings of others, to give people emotional space and to avoid it all becoming trite and silly. I'm not bothered by a certain about of hidden emotions because I can easily get past this barrier in most cases. And the thing is, if I get it a little wrong, I don't mind because I feel that any breach must be repairable.

    I do get worried at the thought of missing something and then it being too late to fix it, which is more what I was talking about. Fe does have this coded element that my radar doesn't detect. With FJs, I might pick up on the underlying feeling but not recognise some of the factors influencing it or realise the extent of the feeling, so I can't see clearly whether I have crossed a line that cannot be undone. This does scare me. The world isn't as orderly a place to Fi as it is to Fe. FPs are trying their best to figure things out, but deep down we're a little afraid of the unknown elements that influence things. It can feel rather like everyone else got a rulebook on how things are done and we didn't. In this regard I worry less about being hurt, but more about hurting others inadvertently; I'm afraid of my potential ignorance and feeling completely out of control when interacting with others (like having no sense of cause and effect - no sense of how it is ordered).

    Likewise, INFPs should give unaltered Si narratives of the things that left them in the dark in the past...Ti can breakdown and integrate Si material much faster than Ne material (i.e. raw banter)...
    Sure. I usually don't speak this theoretically IRL. I usually relate an anecdote or talk about something I read in an article etc.

    Or perhaps Fi doms/auxes and Fe doms/auxes are not really meant for each other...I do not know...
    I disagree. For me the positive interactions far outweigh the negatives - but it's always more interesting to discuss the unusual stuff than the commonly occurring. Also INFPs tend to speak more animatedly about negative reactions than positive (like what I was saying about the spaghetti sauce) - this doesn't necessarily reflect their overall attitude to that idea/person/whatever. I'm sure what I've been saying sounds like a wall of criticism, but I really adore INFJs.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Actually, and my intention here is not to choose sides since I value being as even and neutral as possible, I see you as being very reasonable yeghor. Yes, your stances are more rigid, but you are willing to define the edges for me, speak true to your voice and you are trying to refine your viewpoint through data collection. And I have seen visible evidence of you updating it and trying to extrapolate further. So, I thank you for that, very sincerely.

    And really, OA would throw her hands up in the air to read she has some "grudge" against INFJs. It's not a grudge. INFJs just drive her crazy sometimes. And I understand why. Plus I am wired to read the undertones in her feeling space on this. I do not see you as having any grudge on INFPs either, just a very primitive and limited understanding of our inner realm.
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  8. #1428
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Nice insights @PeaceBaby and @Seymour!

    I'm just going to try to interpret PB and also add my own input here. PB (or other INFPs) tell me what you think and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    In your specific case, one of your individually held values involves being as "even and neutral as possible." My sense is that this value of yours, or one closely related to it, shapes your choices about holding open the judging space. I don't know that all Fi-doms hold that value like you do because from what I can tell, Fi dom values vary with the individual for the most part.
    I don't think this is even a value; I would see it more as a part of correct operating procedure for Fi. I'm not saying it always works like that (bias is inevitable), but I think it's something we become aware of and aspire to in order to find consistency and clarity. Aiming for balance and neutrality is actually a manifestation of a need to remain perceptually open, rather than the other way around.

    I feel like this comes when we start to integrate Te into our lives. Our personal Judgements matter to us but they mean nothing if they don't fit into a larger scheme, or if they are undermined by our own hypocrisy. I can remember the time when I stopped making those instantaneous, impassioned, leaps in Judgement and learned to put on the brakes and think about it first. I wanted my evaluations to count for something. I wanted them to stand up to scrutiny. So I need to wait until I have more relevant information. I need to wait until I have tested whether my preliminary Judgement will work in a universal setting. I need to wait until I can assess if this Judgement is congruent with my other ones and with my behaviour in the past. I need to wait before committing to it; before putting my name on it and opening it up to scrutiny.

    *lightbulb goes on* I don't want my INFP's individual judgement! I want to share perceptual information and tentative assessments of meaning and come to a collective judgement about meaning and what's going on!

    I wonder if this is a huge disconnect for someone who always individually judges as the default (Fi).
    No, I think it's compatible. I often have discussions in this manner with my FJ Mum: we throw around ideas and perspectives until we can tease out potential conclusions. We can totally agree in our conclusions but we integrate those conclusions into our thinking in different ways. The same idea can click for us in a slightly different manner but the outcome can ultimately be the same.

    I do want to say: as much as you value your own open-ness to data, the thing that gets to me so far in interactions with you in particular is that I can sense unspoken judgement in you even as you appear to be asking me "neutral" questions - it's the unspoken-ness of the judgement that bugs me, the disconnect between the presentation of self as neutral and open to perceptual data, and the background judging that is still happening. (I don't know if you want feedback like this from me but will share it in case it's of use).
    INFPs do try on potential Judgments like clothes in a shop. We walk around in it and move our body around to see how it feels and works. It's just to test if that style or colour fits with our world view or if it functions how we expect it will. So in that sense, we're can seem more invested in that Judgement than we are.

    At other times it can be more like wearing one hat of the many I own. I may say negative things about INFJs in this thread, but that's just one hat; whereas all the rest of my hats could hold very positive views of INFJs. And in wearing that hat, I'm not forgetting about all the other ones I own - I just need to choose one for the situation, because there has to be an angle that I use to approach things (like selecting what language we're going to speak for the occasion). I suppose the neutrality is in having many hats of very different natures, but not having any preference or being committed to a favourite. You may see me wearing one hat but that doesn't mean I'm necessarily making a fashion statement - nor does it mean I don't own a bunch of other hats in a totally contrasting style.
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    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  9. #1429
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I don't think this is even a value; I would see it more as a part of correct operating procedure for Fi. I'm not saying it always works like that (bias is inevitable), but I think it's something we become aware of and aspire to in order to find consistency and clarity. Aiming for balance and neutrality is actually a manifestation of a need to remain perceptually open, rather than the other way around.
    i like this. i've come to understand the key verb for Fi not to be "to choose" but to be "to discern." i think Fi seems to be a way to center one's awareness in the confluence of the consequence of an action, in terms of how it is received. it's not so much about an intention as it is about an affect, a shift in quality of experience. using this information, collected thru experience, helps one understand the needs others have both in terms of specifics but also in terms of universals (read: generabilizably similar). nfps just have a strong sense of social, relational forces and their embodiment. for instance, with so type infps, i've seen a marketing/demographics savvy that comes from understanding how key paths shape the kinds of needs people have (as a result of where they've come from and how the forces in play in those spaces affect their experience in other ways. p types in general have a much, much deeper feel for place).

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I feel like this comes when we start to integrate Te into our lives. Our personal Judgements matter to us but they mean nothing if they don't fit into a larger scheme, or if they are undermined by our own hypocrisy. I can remember the time when I stopped making those instantaneous, impassioned, leaps in Judgement and learned to put on the brakes and think about it first. I wanted my evaluations to count for something. I wanted them to stand up to scrutiny. So I need to wait until I have more relevant information. I need to wait until I have tested whether my preliminary Judgement will work in a universal setting. I need to wait until I can assess if this Judgement is congruent with my other ones and with my behaviour in the past. I need to wait before committing to it; before putting my name on it and opening it up to scrutiny.
    this seems well-spoken to me. Te helps you be conscious of how you organize your process methodologically. it allows you to have a grounding outside of the whimsicalness of the moment and have a process to compensate for the times when you lose an awareness about your awareness, when your mindfulness collapses and loses its shape, its openness. it helps you automate, build useful habits, make testable predictions, and relieve some of the p burden to see all the stories in all of their glorious different-ness. it focuses on concentrated integration, rather than organic flow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    INFPs do try on potential Judgments like clothes in a shop. We walk around in it and move our body around to see how it feels and works. It's just to test if that style or colour fits with our world view or if it functions how we expect it will. So in that sense, we're can seem more invested in that Judgement than we are.
    do we have an equivalent to this? i feel like the same could be said for us in terms of our well-described, increased emphasis on "expectations" in comparison, which is a big part of how we navigate the world, by trusting our ability to make predictions that feel harmonious with our sense of purpose. at this stage, a big part of how we assess has to do with an interplay between attitude and aim. will these body of gestures, done in this spirit, generally harmonize or disharmonize this crucial aspect of what needs to happen? will it help put us on the same page, build a strong, adaptive, functional team, and ultimately share purpose, or not?

    however, you can completely deflate an expectation of mine by showing me where you're coming from and how that expectation affects you. but for it to register, sometimes i need it to be both direct and patient. describing what has happened for you. and owning your feelings so that i am not the cause of them, but that i do have an opportunity to appreciate your needs more fully. that's one of the greatest gifts to come out of relationships, the way it opens me up. at the same time, sometimes the way it happens feels like an attack to me, and then the ability to empathize starts to get pulled apart into an anger black hole. fear and anger just impair my ability to connect to a deeper, more centered awareness of what is happening, seen through my own observations of my own needs and the way those observations help me center my ability to relate to other's vulnerability and what it is like to be in their space.

    i think, as a dynamic, we might have extra challenges to resolve when we conflict bc we don't have a lot of "process common ground," as our socio-cognitive processing styles struggle to share pieces as they are, in the process of being constructed; nevertheless, if we can recognize how to create an emotionally intelligent environment to deal with shit, that doesn't matter as much. we can figure out how to ask for what we need and recognize how to coordinate a process more effectively. in my own experience, our paths cross too often, our purposes as ego types too overlapping, to not learn how to create a healthy, flexible way of participating in each other's paths.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    At other times it can be more like wearing one hat of the many I own. I may say negative things about INFJs in this thread, but that's just one hat; whereas all the rest of my hats could hold very positive views of INFJs. And in wearing that hat, I'm not forgetting about all the other ones I own - I just need to choose one for the situation, because there has to be an angle that I use to approach things (like selecting what language we're going to speak for the occasion). I suppose the neutrality is in having many hats of very different natures, but not having any preference or being committed to a favorite. You may see me wearing one hat but that doesn't mean I'm necessarily making a fashion statement - nor does it mean I don't own a bunch of other hats in a totally contrasting style.
    the recognition of this, to me, is a big part of why i have appreciated many infp friends. the ability to play devil's advocate, to balance the story context, is a really great skill, especially when it's done in a way that helps reveal and clarify essential human needs. they know how to write a great character novel, to situate the social forces in play on that narrative process, and to help create a way in to how those feel when you experience them firsthand.

  10. #1430
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Indeed, the utility of people. Sometimes I take issue with the Ni predilection to "decide" what I am good for. In some situations it makes me desire to obfuscate the information you can discern from me in order to avoid being pigeon-holed. I realize too that this runs the risk (as @21% aptly pointed out) you will decide what I am good for anyway. But this rendering of premature judgement annoys me even here. Beautiful imagery on that though.
    If you were part of a group I was in, and we had a shared project to understand and act well on, and you decided to obfuscate information for your individual need to not be pigeon-holed, I would have a real problem with that. I would recognize that you have every right to have that as your priority in your own life and movement, but I would lose (or not develop, depending on where we started) trust in you as a group member.

    At the very least, I would try to find a different source of information to fill in the gaps where your information isn't helping. I would also tentatively classify you as someone who was more interested in meeting your individual needs than the needs of the group, and would probably try to avoid information flow from you directly into my perception. I would, however, keep attending to you (*sort of out of the corner of my eye) as long as you were in the group looking to see if maybe you had shifted into NOT obfuscating information at some point. And if I had the energy for it and felt you as non-malicious, I might also see if I could move in ways that would open doors for you to be okay with sharing the actual true information rather than obfuscating it.

    And if the group seemed to support such action (obfuscating information like that), I would also consider stepping away (an eventual doorslam) if that was getting in the way of clarity and accuracy of understanding and action.

    I think it doesn't ping for you because you are projecting a judgement into the phrase, one that does not exist for me saying it that way. "See it your way" doesn't align with your sense of community value? Can you reflect a little more for a better phrase? (As will I, to capture the essence of the feeling with better words.)
    It doesn't ping for me because seeing it MY way (as an individual) is not the issue, not accurate here. I would not not looking for others to see it MY way. That's way too limited and individual-based for me.

    Instead, I'd be looking to collectively develop OUR way of seeing it. Does that illuminate the difference?

    And this actually goes back to my comment above as well. Developing collective understanding if what's going on and what to do about it requires that people in a group prioritize that and offer information and perspective and analysis in good faith for that goal. This is where trust (or something along these lines) comes in, for me. I don't want to do this as part of a group (could be a group of 2 or more than that) where one or more of the other participants would choose to obfuscate or otherwise deliberately mess with information flow.

    I wonder something. For me, shared priorities seems more relevant than shared values. Maybe it's just a different way of saying the same thing, but maybe not. Values seem heavier to me, where priorities can be specific to particular topics, contexts, situations. So for example, I'm thinking of someone, (ISFP, I believe, so another Fi-dom) I knew years ago who I realized I could not connect with on a personal level at all, things were too messed up at that level. But even in the midst of that, I also knew that if this person showed up at my doorstep with clear goals related to our shared connection point of activism, I would work with him in a heartbeat and the personal stuff would not get in the way for me. We tended not to share values in many ways (even politically, we diverged on some values), but I recognized his brilliance in certain arenas and felt we could, in limited ways, possibly share priorities for specific projects. (I moved away before ay real opportunities arose, so I don't know if I was right, but sharing this in case it helps get at what I mean by priorities versus values)

    You've learned to disregard some of the intermediate, pouty judgements then?
    I don't think so, and I would not use the word pouty in any case, it doesn't seem accurate to me. She's more forceful than pouty.

    What works for me is centering as much as possible in my own organic landscape (Ni and Ni-Se perception). This is true in this relationship and in the rest of my life as well. It's an interesting struggle, with the constant pull from the external environment to center in other landscapes. Strengthening my muscles to be able to shift back into my organic landscape when I am pulled out is one strategy.

    If no, we can explore it more if you would find such a thing helpful. We need to get that stuff out to make space for receiving perceiving data again. (Huge feeling space in me on this; don't have time to flesh it all out with words. Let me know if you want to examine.)
    I've been thinking about @yeghor's initial quote of one my comments and my response. I'm starting to wonder if I've been somehow conditioned (not the right word but will leave it in) to not expect certain efforts of understanding from my partner, and have been basing this lack of expectation on her cognitive processes when maybe it's not only that.

    I say the above because my response to your comment about exploration is this: what I really need for my own wellness, from anyone in this world, is real, true, clean support for me to move from my organic perception and landscape. And that doesn't always happen in the interactions with my INFP partner.

    For example: She really doesn't like it when I am picking up a Ni-Se sense perception and don't have a clear declarative statement kind of understanding to communicate to her, she says it's overwhelming to her to get this perceptual (often metaphorical, image-based, sense based) information without it being processed into something about which I can make a declarative and conclusive statement.

    What I don't know, what I'm questioning now, is: is it just that Fi (or some combo of Fi-Ne-Si-Te) just doesn't allow for such support or is there also something specific to her as a person that is at play here?

    Then you will need to ask for it explicitly. When a judgement is expressed that seems a perceptual mismatch, you need to gently probe into this. Baby it even.
    Just to have it on the record, this would certainly not work with my INFP. You mentioned Te-inf in your PM, PeaceBaby, and it seems to me that Te-inf in service to Fi-dom yields only irritation with such probes. No matter how subtle. The obstacle seems to be a resistance to collective movement. Like such movement goes against the individual-based Fi focus or something.

    You see the two of you as a unit, so this makes sense. Are you looking for some strategies on how this might be accomplished?
    At this point in this relationship, I'm really just trying to re-center in my own organic Ni-Se perception and move from there. I've currently given up on us being a unit in my collective sense of the word. And while that may become possible someday, and I'm certainly not closed to that ... I feel that at this point it's more important for me to be as centered as possible in my organic Ni/Ni-Se perceptual landscape. In order to actually breathe.

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