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Thread: When an INFJ doorslams you / cuts you out of their life / breaks off contact

  1. #1411
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Can you define values as you understand it? Thanks.
    I'll try. This is my understanding of values as related to the cognitive functions in action:

    From what I understand, people use values to assess what is right/wrong, appropriate/inappropriate, moral/immoral, stuff like that. Values are human-created narratives (narratives may not be the right word but it makes sense in my head) of assessment, used to judge elements of what's going on.

    (And Fi values are chosen and held by the individual, while Fe values are chosen and held by collectives)

    And! Here's an example of what I mean. In another comment, you wrote:

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Actually, and my intention here is not to choose sides since I value being as even and neutral as possible, I see you as being very reasonable yeghor. Yes, your stances are more rigid, but you are willing to define the edges for me, speak true to your voice and you are trying to refine your viewpoint through data collection. And I have seen visible evidence of you updating it and trying to extrapolate further. So, I thank you for that, very sincerely.
    You write that you value "being as even and neutral as possible." You use that value in assessment of your own intentions and behavior, and it looks to me - correct me if I'm wrong here, please - as if you're also using it to positively assess some of yeghor's interactions related to being reasonable and trying to refine the viewpoint through data collection. Seems to me that you may also be using one or more other other values in your assessment of yeghor's communication, though without explicitly naming them (which is common, people and groups often don't explicitly name the values used to assess). One that sticks out for me is about "speaking true to your voice."
    Last edited by Werebudgie; 01-24-2014 at 05:09 PM. Reason: to add an example and for clarity on the Fi Fe bit

  2. #1412
    Senior Member Array yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    Sorry...I must have misunderstood...

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    @March - sorry for the late response (it's being a busy week), or pre-response for that matter (because i don't think i can let myself not go over that in full - that was gold - gold i might end up disagreeing with but gold nonetheless). still, every response in my head seems to depend on this piece:

    'maybe I am an asshole and maybe that's all I am.' That doesn't mean INFJs can't be criticized, just that it's counterproductive for them to have to accept other people's perspectives on what their character and intent was.

    Is the neutral version something you can get behind? Criticize the behaviour, not the intent? Or is it necessary for INFJs to be capable of learning in your view that they're able to self-identify with another person's conclusions about their character?
    how?

    how do you make sure that telling them "you've being an asshole, please stop being an asshole" or describing the consequences of actions and choices they made which "imply that they are" is understood as something that they have control over rather than a static absolute? why is it even interpreted in terms of intent? is pointing out the consequences assumed as claiming those where the intentions? how to withhold the jump from an exhibited trait ("i am an asshole") to defining themselves by it completely ("maybe that's all i am")? how can you present them with devaluing elements of reality without them feeling powerless to change it?

  4. #1414
    Vulnerability Array Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Sorry...I must have misunderstood...
    Thanks.

    I can see it better from your pov, now, too, so I'm sorry I wasn't more thoughtful in the way I chose to word things and that I made you feel blamed by mentioning you instead of using more general language.
    Johari / Nohari

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    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

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    Crude & outdated Array Anaximander's Avatar
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    I don't see this as something limited to INFJs, yet it's usually discussed as though it were a trait or behavior unique to that type. My ISFJ mother has done it as well, so perhaps it's really an Fe thing in general? I also have done this to people a lot, and we can all agree I'm no INFJ. I have noticed that my ENFP sister will try to maintain friendships and relationships for a much longer period of time if they are abusive or one-sided, perhaps thinking the other person is redeemable in some way. She sees positive qualities or the potential to be better people in others even when most others fail to see it...
    Quote Originally Posted by typh0n
    Usually it's the far left or the far right criticizing the establishment, but I don't see why I couldn't be an "an anti-establishment centrist"
    http://swfanon.wikia.com/wiki/Gray_Jedi_Code

    http://www.with.org/tao_te_ching_en.pdf

    http://www.aikidoseiki.com/doc/aikid..._peace_eng.pdf

  6. #1416
    reborn Array PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    ok, woke up with these thoughts, and will try to type them out. I feel that all types have their own form of raw batter that causes distress for other types. I'm positing that INFP's needing perception is the INFJ raw batter, and INFJ's needing judgement is INFP raw batter. More below as I struggle to articulate the feeling space.

    Ji dom is an inner judging space that relays instant judging feedback to me. Being an INFP, the venue for that space is in the realm of feeling and value. I've talked before about the value space and what that's like for me here.

    There's an excerpt under the spoiler tag.



    So, to briefly reiterate: I judge everything, all day, every day, without effort or conscious thought. Because my singular point of reference is my own judging space, I inherently extrapolate that everyone else's judging space is as equally subjective. (Meaning, just my opinion, and everyone has one.) In order to make better judgements, I consciously HOLD OPEN the judging space to perception. My own perception, and the raw perceptions of others. I don't need judgements from others, because I have already framed a myriad of possible judgements about any given situation. Judgements are a dime a dozen to me - perception is key. When I receive raw data, I make better judgements overall. In this context, I will hold a dozen judging balls up in the air simultaneously before letting 11 of them fall to the floor. I inherently see almost every judgement already. I know in many situations exactly what words will point any given person off to a new judgement. Sometimes I feel the scrutinizing eyes of an Si or Ni dom on me poised to take a direction in judgement and it frankly is terrifying to control that space this much. So, when for example @yeghor asserts a judgement that @Mane for example is a narcissist or is an Fi user or has mental health issues, I feel like THIS is raw (judgement) batter being passed off as cake. I am inherently wired to realize HE DOES NOT have enough perceptual matter to make that judgement. Now, that being said, Ni is very good at filling in spaces, noting the discrepancies and accounting for them over time. But incomplete or premature judgement always rubs me wrong. I will sometimes hold that space open for YEARS.

    So, let's turn this sideways now. Pi perceives everything, all day, without effort or conscious thought. The feeling I get from INFJ's on this is that this feels like a vast ocean open for exploration. You are not a point in the ocean, but you float across this inner landscape almost as an observer. This landscape just IS. And you just have eyes open to view it. Pure perceiving. So, you are inherently wired to know that everyone's perceiving space is controlled only by the vantage point through which they view any given event. Everyone is a bystander in the perceptive world and no one vantage point can claim jurisdiction. In esse, you need everyone's judgements on the perception taken in to any given point in time. Your preference would be to wait until this occurs naturally, but life kind of forces you sometimes to limit perceptive intake and make judgements. (Or maybe, it feels like life forces you out of that space, which would suck.) You inherently see almost every perception already. You CLOSE perception at some point and feel out the external space to receive judgements in turn. You value judgement that's as untainted as possible, free from ulterior motive or potential bias. For INFJ, perceptions are a dime a dozen - judgement is key. I sense you need judgement because that assumes the audience you request data from has done the collecting / processing necessary in the perception realm to render judgement. If you solicit 10 judgements, and 6 see it your way, that lends credence to your conclusion and confidence in choosing a course of action moving forward.

    Here is the sticky bit: You need my judgement and I don't want to give it because I know it will influence your action and I feel need more data to render it. Thus, I want your data yet you see that as irrelevant since you've already held open the perception space, surfed around in it and feel you have enough info to render judgement at any given moment in time. Because a Final Judgement is much more final for me, and I know what kind of impact it can make when I throw any given judgement out into the world, I hesitate to make any, especially in this venue.

    Anyways, that's what I've got so far. Will try to to Pe dom / Je dom next. Working more on this as it comes to me. I have to do this process out loud or nothing happens.

    eta: Ji dom wiring lends me to assess whether or not there has been sufficient perceptual data to render a judgement.
    Pi dom wiring lends one to assess whether or not there has been sufficient judgement data to support their perceptual focus.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  7. #1417
    You have a choice! Array 21%'s Avatar
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    Let me start off by saying that I haven't been following this thread so I don't know exactly what is being debated here (as it seems that it's no longer about doorslamming). I do find this very interesting:

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    You value judgement that's as untainted as possible, free from ulterior motive or potential bias. For INFJ, perceptions are a dime a dozen - judgement is key. I sense you need judgement because that assumes the audience you request data from has done the processing necessary in the perception realm to render judgement. If you solicit 10 judgements, and 6 see it your way, that lends credence to your conclusion and confidence in choosing a course of action moving forward.
    I think the bolded is true. I will often seek out opposing views on everything to make sure I can form the most accurate judgement. Sometimes it's not as straightforward as it sounds, as I will also try to deconstruct all those other views to see what they really mean, and this can lead to a very complicated process where thoughts, emotions, feelings, biases, as well as personal 'bias compensations' are taken into consideration. However, I think INFJs feel a pressing need for a conclusion, so we also have a cut-off point where we decide to make a decision based on partial data -- this might be true for all decisions, since it is impossible to obtain all data that is out there. Individuals, depending on the needs of the external situation as well, differ on where this cut-off point is, but I think it always exists. The idea of leaving things open forever is stressful, because it halts all other future decisions that will be based on this particular decision, and also stops me from getting further data, because I feel like I have to first 'stand somewhere' before I can look at what is around me. It's fine if the decision is wrong -- once I get enough data I will re-evaluate my position, and will change it if necessary. But I always have to land somewhere. I'm not sure if this makes sense.

    Here is the sticky bit: You need my judgement and I don't want to give it because I know it will influence your action and I feel need more data to render it. Thus, I want your data yet you see that as irrelevant since you've already held open the perception space, surfed around in it and feel you have enough info to render judgement at any given moment in time. Because a Final Judgement is much more final for me, and I know what kind of impact it can make when I throw any given judgement out into the world, I hesitate to make any, especially in this venue.
    @the bolded -- for me, I feel like I need your judgment and you don't want to give it because you need more data, but I feel that if you don't give me that judgment, I am going to make my own judgment (without having taken into consideration your judgment -- which is part of my 'data source') which is going to influence you. I feel that without input from you, I am forced to make a flawed judgment which lacks essential data, and this can definitely lead to annoyance.

    Again, not sure if this make sense: making a decision is always difficult and feels like a weighty resolution to me. I make my decisions fully aware of the fact that they may be wrong and may lead to undesirable consequences, which I wholly accept. This might explain the 'martyr air' people talk about in INFJs. It's the weight of our decisions. What Ji tends to do is to throw out 'raw batter judgments' everywhere, which can very easily be misunderstood and taken as 'final judgment' (or at least 'landing spot judgment'), while delaying their real 'Final Judgment' -- and this can be stressful if you don't recognize what these really are. So on the surface, Ji can seem extremely judgy without the responsibility and willingness to commit to anything, making it seem flippant and frivolous. I also understand how Je can appear restricting and domineering, and even cruel with its need to reach a decision.
    4w5 sp/sx EII

  8. #1418
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Ji dom is an inner judging space that relays instant judging feedback to me. Being an INFP, the venue for that space is in the realm of feeling and value. ...

    So, to briefly reiterate: I judge everything, all day, every day, without effort or conscious thought. Because my singular point of reference is my own judging space, I inherently extrapolate that everyone else's judging space is as equally subjective. (Meaning, just my opinion, and everyone has one.) In order to make better judgements, I consciously HOLD OPEN the judging space to perception. My own perception, and the raw perceptions of others.
    This is fascinating! To have to consciously choose to hold open perceptual space ... wow.

    I suspect that different INFPs (or maybe more accurate to say Ji doms or at least Fi doms) make different choices about when and how to hold open that space. For me the key piece of clarity from your description is: it's a conscious choice for you (Fi-dom) to do the non-default (perceiving) from a space of default judging.

    In your specific case, one of your individually held values involves being as "even and neutral as possible." My sense is that this value of yours, or one closely related to it, shapes your choices about holding open the judging space. I don't know that all Fi-doms hold that value like you do because from what I can tell, Fi dom values vary with the individual for the most part.

    So in your case, that value itself shapes your choices about holding open the judging space to perception. You're holding open a space for perception based on a value. Even there, the judging is primary. (probably a blinding glimpse of the obvious, but still fascinating to me)

    So, let's turn this sideways now. Pi perceives everything, all day, without effort or conscious thought. The feeling I get from INFJ's on this is that this feels like a vast ocean open for exploration. You are not a point in the ocean, but you float across this inner landscape almost as an observer. This landscape just IS. And you just have eyes open to view it. Pure perceiving. So, you are inherently wired to know that everyone's perceiving space is controlled only by the vantage point through which they view any given event. Everyone is a bystander in the perceptive world and no one vantage point can claim jurisdiction.
    This is almost 100% accurate to my experience. The only correction I would make from my vantage point is that I am a participant-observer as much as simply an observer. So I can also see my own movement in this landscape as part of the perceptual data. (note: in case it's not clear, movement does not equal judgement.) But otherwise - yes.

    In essence, you need everyone's judgements on the perception taken in to any given point in time.
    For me - Not everyone's necessarily, but the relevant ones to allow for useful action in any given specific context and situation. Picture a vast interconnected web with everyone performing specific functions as part of a larger whole. Or picture the ecosystem of human body. You can have "working groups" of elements within that with specific projects. Accurate judgement requires getting all of the relevant perceptual information for the specific context at that time.

    Your preference would be to wait until this occurs naturally, but life kind of forces you sometimes to limit perceptive intake and make judgements. (Or maybe, it feels like life forces you out of that space, which would suck.) You inherently see almost every perception already. You CLOSE perception at some point and feel out the external space to receive judgements in turn. You value judgement that's as untainted as possible, free from ulterior motive or potential bias.
    IMO, all perception is "biased" by the specific location/vantage point/function of the individual or group sharing that perception.

    Information coming from ulterior motives is certainly not useful, though.

    For INFJ, perceptions are a dime a dozen - judgement is key. I sense you need judgement because that assumes the audience you request data from has done the collecting / processing necessary in the perception realm to render judgement. If you solicit 10 judgements, and 6 see it your way, that lends credence to your conclusion and confidence in choosing a course of action moving forward.
    This heads into tricky territory. I think Fe-aux can really mess with us on this. Something in the phrase "see it your way" pings for me. Not .... quite .... right.

    Here is the sticky bit: You need my judgement and I don't want to give it because I know it will influence your action and I feel need more data to render it. Thus, I want your data yet you see that as irrelevant since you've already held open the perception space, surfed around in it and feel you have enough info to render judgement at any given moment in time.
    Maybe other INFJs need your judgement, but I know I don't. I actually agree with you about how a Fi-dom's judgement can mess with a Ni-dom's action. But I've had to learn this the hard way, and I think I was more like what you're describing several years ago than I am now after so much time in a close relationship with an INFP.

    edited to add: but I still, no matter what, do seek out my INFP partner's perspective on any decision that will affect us both. I realize as I think about this that I can't turn this off. And it puts me in a very difficult situation because I pull against myself when her hardcore (to me) individually-based judgement messes with my capacity to perceive true because her judgement is so loud and so strong and perception requires a quieter mode in me.

    You know, I think I would much prefer getting her perceptual information followed by discussion of what the mixture of perceptual information from us both might mean for action (collective judgement).

    *lightbulb goes on* I don't want my INFP's individual judgement! I want to share perceptual information and tentative assessments of meaning and come to a collective judgement about meaning and what's going on!

    I wonder if this is a huge disconnect for someone who always individually judges as the default (Fi).

    I do want to say: as much as you value your own open-ness to data, the thing that gets to me so far in interactions with you in particular is that I can sense unspoken judgement in you even as you appear to be asking me "neutral" questions - it's the unspoken-ness of the judgement that bugs me, the disconnect between the presentation of self as neutral and open to perceptual data, and the background judging that is still happening. (I don't know if you want feedback like this from me but will share it in case it's of use).

    Because a Final Judgement is much more final for me, and I know what kind of impact it can make when I throw any given judgement out into the world, I hesitate to make any, especially in this venue.
    Are you sure that you're not making judgements in the background and just not sharing them explicitly because you don't want to have a negative effect as you describe?

  9. #1419
    reborn Array PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Usual disclaimer: I am just one person and do not claim to speak for all INFP's or Ji doms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    This is fascinating! To have to consciously choose to hold open perceptual space ... wow.


    I suspect that different INFPs (or maybe more accurate to say Ji doms or at least Fi doms) make different choices about when and how to hold open that space. For me the key piece of clarity from your description is: it's a conscious choice for you (Fi-dom) to do the non-default (perceiving) from a space of default judging.

    In your specific case, one of your individually held values involves being as "even and neutral as possible." My sense is that this value of yours, or one closely related to it, shapes your choices about holding open the judging space. I don't know that all Fi-doms hold that value like you do because from what I can tell, Fi dom values vary with the individual for the most part.
    Yes, for me the primary function is best analogized as the glasses you do not even know you are wearing. Function theory posits that the auxiliary function is the most conscious, and for me of course, Ne. So I am conscious of holding open the doors to new data, just as I suspect you are conscious of rendering judgement. In that, all Ji doms I suspect are conscious of the space, but do make individual choices of where and when they do so. In fact, I would say this is something we need to learn to do, remember to do. We get better at it over time. For some folks / in some situations, it might not be a deliberate closure to the perceptual realm. So, yes, values vary by individual, and some of the more subjective ones quite widely. But I suspect if you were to poll a bunch of IxFP's, you would gain a sense that there is a set of universal values, something that, even if tested by fire, would emerge clean and pure.

    So in your case, that value itself shapes your choices about holding open the judging space to perception. You're holding open a space for perception based on a value. Even there, the judging is primary. (probably a blinding glimpse of the obvious, but still fascinating to me)
    Yes. The values form a sophisticated operating system.

    This is almost 100% accurate to my experience. The only correction I would make from my vantage point is that I am a participant-observer as much as simply an observer. So I can also see my own movement in this landscape as part of the perceptual data. (note: in case it's not clear, movement does not equal judgement.) But otherwise - yes.
    That's how the inner space of Ni doms feels to me so I am glad I was able to capture the essence of that feeling into words that resonate for you. Thank you for adding that bit on being a participant-observer.

    For me - Not everyone's necessarily, but the relevant ones to allow for useful action in any given specific context and situation. Picture a vast interconnected web with everyone performing specific functions as part of a larger whole. Or picture the ecosystem of human body. You can have "working groups" of elements within that with specific projects. Accurate judgement requires getting all of the relevant perceptual information for the specific context at that time.
    Indeed, the utility of people. Sometimes I take issue with the Ni predilection to "decide" what I am good for. In some situations it makes me desire to obfuscate the information you can discern from me in order to avoid being pigeon-holed. I realize too that this runs the risk (as @21% aptly pointed out) you will decide what I am good for anyway. But this rendering of premature judgement annoys me even here. Beautiful imagery on that though.

    IMO, all perception is "biased" by the specific location/vantage point/function of the individual or group sharing that perception.

    Information coming from ulterior motives is certainly not useful, though.
    Thanks very much for the clarification.

    This heads into tricky territory. I think Fe-aux can really mess with us on this. Something in the phrase "see it your way" pings for me. Not .... quite .... right.
    I think it doesn't ping for you because you are projecting a judgement into the phrase, one that does not exist for me saying it that way. "See it your way" doesn't align with your sense of community value? Can you reflect a little more for a better phrase? (As will I, to capture the essence of the feeling with better words.)

    Maybe other INFJs need your judgement, but I know I don't. I actually agree with you about how a Fi-dom's judgement can mess with a Ni-dom's action. But I've had to learn this the hard way, and I think I was more like what you're describing several years ago than I am now after so much time in a close relationship with an INFP.
    You've learned to disregard some of the intermediate, pouty judgements then? If no, we can explore it more if you would find such a thing helpful. We need to get that stuff out to make space for receiving perceiving data again. (Huge feeling space in me on this; don't have time to flesh it all out with words. Let me know if you want to examine.)

    your statement was great though - I KNOW where INxJ's find me useful and when I'm held at arm's length!

    You know, I think I would much prefer getting her perceptual information followed by discussion of what the mixture of perceptual information from us both might mean for action (collective judgement).
    Then you will need to ask for it explicitly. When a judgement is expressed that seems a perceptual mismatch, you need to gently probe into this. Baby it even. Again, time presses and if you want to examine this more, let me know.

    *lightbulb goes on* I don't want my INFP's individual judgement! I want to share perceptual information and tentative assessments of meaning and come to a collective judgement about meaning and what's going on!
    You see the two of you as a unit, so this makes sense. Are you looking for some strategies on how this might be accomplished?

    I do want to say: as much as you value your own open-ness to data, the thing that gets to me so far in interactions with you in particular is that I can sense unspoken judgement in you even as you appear to be asking me "neutral" questions - it's the unspoken-ness of the judgement that bugs me, the disconnect between the presentation of self as neutral and open to perceptual data, and the background judging that is still happening. (I don't know if you want feedback like this from me but will share it in case it's of use).
    I've been told this by other Ni-doms in the past. I can explain this through consideration of the following: 1.) I AM judging, all of the time, a vasty ocean of judginess, but this judgement is not final judgement and if you're perceiving it as such, that's primarily because you are projecting a destination in there. I CAN make this process 99% invisible to you, but on the forum, I like to speak more in a natural voice. However, this means I risk that someone will run with a judgement I am not making. 2.) Here on the forum I am tired of trying to hold back emotions which are construed, especially by INFJ's, as information that clouds the judging process. For me, emotion CLARIFIES the judging process. Feeling tones of value + emotions comprise the bulk of data that I use to navigate the world.

    Are you sure that you're not making judgements in the background and just not sharing them explicitly because you don't want to have a negative effect as you describe?
    Of course I am making judgements but not in the way you're thinking. There's nothing in my judgements that's castigating on a regular basis. Most of those judgements revolve around value and impact on me, then also extend out from me to the communities I exist in at large.


    eta: my husband just wanted you all to know, that he felt the axis of the earth shift purely from the magnitude of this discussion. Je doms ... I'll go give him a hug now!
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  10. #1420
    Vaguely Precise Array Seymour's Avatar
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    One thing that has long seemed near-magical to me is the NJ strength of being aware of trends and making accurate predictions about long term outcomes. While I think I'm reasonably good at building mental models of how things works, I'm less good about charting changes across temporally distant events and being able to draw a line between them.

    But based on posts on this thread (and other places), it seems to me that that ability is a bit more effortful than it appears externally. It seems to me that in order to make long term plans and predictions, one needs both stability (or at least predictable instability) and an understanding of the outcome effecting principles involved. This means having an accurate model is imperative.

    Consequently, NJs seem to pay a lot of attention to things that don't fit their expected model. They can't help but pay attention to inconsistencies... which is mostly to the good, because otherwise they can't adjust their models (or variables within those models) to match reality.

    However, paying attention to variations and inconsistencies takes a certain amount of mental bandwidth. Things that are predictable take less (although I think that's even more true for TJs than FJs).

    Therefore (especially for NFJs), inconsistent and unreliable people steal a lot of mental bandwidth and emotional energy, because their actions raise a whole host of nagging questions: Are they not the person I thought they were? What's their motivation for their behavior? Should I use a different criteria to judge people as trustworthy? Was it my own behavior that triggered the change in their behavior?

    So, at a certain point, it may become too costly to continue interacting closely with certain people. This is doubly true when one considers how NFJs tend to use the judgment of others as a means of calibrating their judgments of themselves. Someone who gives inconsistent feedback is like a distorting mirror that may be 100% accurate one moment, and wildly distorting another. This leads to self-doubt and mental and emotional exhaustion over time.

    All this, if true, makes the "door slam" effect a bit more explainable. One problem, though, is that all the precipitating events aren't visible or obvious to the door-slammed until it's too late.

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