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  1. #1391
    Saponi Redbone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    What in the world is "raw batter" - you've used that expression so many times now it's become utterly ambiguous to me.
    Yeah, I was curious about this, too.

    No pony in this race but I've been browsing in this thread.

  2. #1392
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Raw batter means the tendency of some types to offer up unprocessed data as it comes to them, vs assembling it into a final form and presenting it. Both methods have pros and cons.

    Often, those who are in the habit of cake baking either assume that they are being offered what appears to be batter but it is being called cake, or else get frustrated that the other person expects them to wait with them through the whole baking process.

    Those who are in the habit of mixing batter and consulting throughout the baking process often feel that being offered a cake without any chance for submitting the other parties ideas, preferences, suggestions, input or helpful outside information going into the batter mix is a recipe for unsatisfactory results.

    At least that is my interpretation of it all. Z Buck can correct me if I'm wrong. (The last two paragraphs are just my own expansion.)

  3. #1393
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Raw batter means the tendency of some types to offer up unprocessed data as it comes to them, vs assembling it into a final form and presenting it. Both methods have pros and cons.

    Often, those who are in the habit of cake baking either assume that they are being offered what appears to be batter but it is being called cake, or else get frustrated that the other person expects them to wait with them through the whole baking process.

    Those who are in the habit of mixing batter and consulting throughout the baking process often feel that being offered a cake without any chance for submitting the other parties ideas, preferences, suggestions, input or helpful outside information going into the batter mix is a recipe for unsatisfactory results.

    At least that is my interpretation of it all. Z Buck can correct me if I'm wrong. (The last two paragraphs are just my own expansion.)

  4. #1394
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I will suggest here that the self concept of the NP is possibly the strongest of any type's self-concept, and because of this it is much more traumatic to a sense of self to accept information that undermines their foundational assumptions about who they are. If they consider self to be logical and objective, then you will not convince them otherwise. If they consider self to be empathetic and kind, they will not be convinced otherwise. It isn't about action, but about being. For the Te and the Fe it is about doing and not being, so to present criticism is to recommend a change in action and not to undermine a sense of self. When NPs do intake conflicting information about a sense of self it can cause them to fall into a deep confusion and self-loathing. It is also difficult for NP types to distance themselves from criticism and take it in as something that is not undermining of self. The Fi-Si and Ti-Si loops create a stronger absolute sense of being based on experience and strong, conclusive internal frameworks of reality. There can be a unique level of clarity in this combination, but it does tend towards projection and dismissal of information that falls outside of it. I think you have the constructs backwards.
    ^^I had to read this over a few times merely because as an ENFP e7...words like 'traumatic' and 'self-loathing' don't readily compute in my mind...but other than that...you've got it all right as far as I'm concerned.

    Ni and Si people can be absolutely distorted in their thinking, but at least for Ni, it is not dismissal of external data, but rather poor internal processing that results in faulty conclusions. Perhaps I am mistaken, but can explain why I am?
    It has never been my experience that Ni dismisses external data. To the contrary. That is where I believe the protest comes from. A protest that people are interpreting as a dismissal.
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  5. #1395
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    My ex didn't really have a problem telling me off haha. What happened was he came to believe I had done something I had not...and told me off. <-Once he figured-out I was innocent in that regard he really fell apart (stopped eating, stopped sleeping...stopped talking.)
    I came up with two scenarios:

    1) When I was younger, I used to actually believe that if I suffered it would somehow either relieve or make up for the suffering of others. Perhaps he thought that he was somehow atoning for telling you off and being wrong. I realized that this type of thinking wasn't very realistic, but it's still kind of there.

    2) I can get very attached to my explanations of what's going on. Add to that, that something in me makes me feel that I have to be perfect and right. To admit to being wrong can be embarrassing and shameful to me. To have hurt someone can also be embarrassing and shameful to me. Unfortunately, the shame from the former (being wrong) can actually overwhelm the shame from the latter (hurting someone), and I will selfishly nurse my own feelings instead of prioritizing the feelings of the person I hurt.
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    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  6. #1396
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    @Z Buck McFate I haven't been following the intricate details of the dialogue this is part of, but you articulate a lot of stuff here that meshes with my experience (as an INFJ and specifically an INFJ in a relationship with an INFP).

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I think that INFJs are exceptionally sensitive to it whilst having the least amount confidence that we know we’re Right about the gut feelings we get. I think that probably more doorslams than not are because the INFJ has a gut feeling they can’t get rid of, whilst being totally and completely unsure about whether it really is the other person or if it’s them- and (we're so absolutely and completely bombarded with Ni possibilities that) figuring out where and how to draw a boundary starts looking like one of Gödel's theorems.
    Other than wanting a better phrase than "Ni possibilities" (for me the problem is the translation of Ni and Ni-Se information into consciously understandable material, not possibilities), the above really resonates for me.

    figuring out where and how to draw a boundary

    ^ ^ This phrase in particular pings for me as something true in myself that I don't quite understand yet. I really appreciate this

    *thinking*

    INFPs have an advantage in that they seem to inherently feel an importance of their personal viewpoint that we struggle to justify. On the downside, it can make them sound "me me me"- but on the plus side, they are ABLE to say "me me me" in a pinch, when backed into that corner where it becomes necessary; when INFJs get backed into that corner......*crickets and tumbleweeds*. And while I think a great many INFPs are too humble to actually say "me me me" lightly, my point is rather that they have more access to it than we do in the first place.
    I agree with this 100% given my INFJ-INFP experiences, especially the bolded parts.

    I think that INFJs don't want to say anything until they are relatively certain (1) they aren't being controlling (many have expressed loathing about forcing their ideals onto other people)
    I am absolutely repulsed by any role in which I am controlling and forcing anything onto other(s).

    and that the need they are to assert is completely reasonable and (2) the person in question would prefer they assert that need rather than simply back away and disappear.
    Yes to both, in my case.

    Though in my case, I first put considerable effort into trying to adapt to whatever the environment is as a first step. This may also be an enneagram thing. I say this because I did a questionnaire once that accurately pinpointed the priority order of my response to external threats and I feel like it's relevant here even if it's not specifically about threats.

    My first response is to try to adapt/comply with what the others do or want. If that isn't possible or effective, I withdraw. And if THAT isn't possible/effective, I'll fight back. By the time I get to that third one, fighting back, whoa, watch out. I try to (and generally manage to) avoid that last (fighting back) because when I unleash that, I can rip someone's soul to shreds using scary-accurate information and insight.

    In contrast, my 9w8 INFP partner's first response is to withdraw. If that's not possible or effective, she fights back. And her third and last response would be to comply/adapt. And even that - for her, the comply/adapt response retains her sense of self and her needs intact - she doesn't allow the process to get into her like it does for me.

    [It's rather ironic- people who show up and say that backing away/"doorslamming" is a form of "controlling" are inadvertently locking in any suspicion they are indeed 'incompatible'. I think it appears outwardly as some need to control the external environment, but it's more like a need to be able to know what to expect in the external environment because it's so entirely taxing to have our focus dragged out there (least Se). The more someone else needs to perceive this as 'control'- they more I feel the need to distance them because they clearly see the world so absolutely differently from me that perceptions are likely irreconcilable.]
    This, too, resonates for me.

    eta: Actually- I think this is something totally germaine to the discussion- if someone around me expresses the opinion that they think I'm "controlling", I am absolutely going to back away from them......not because it's unflattering, but because I'm not interested in "controlling" anyone. The notion that I'm backing away because it's not flattering is.....a very petty assumption to me. It presumes I could change if I wanted to- and that I'm simply dismissing the opinion because I don't want to believe it. On the contrary, it's because I believe that's their experience- and if the best I can do at being malleable is still coming across as 'controlling', then that person is incompatible with me because I have no interest in making someone feel controlled.
    This makes so SO much sense to me! I really appreciate the distinction between "not flattering" (which, yes, seems extremely petty to me as a priority) and the other person's experience and not wanting to (my words) play that role in relationship with the other person given their experience of interaction.

    I think that- because J types tend to have a more forceful tone- Ps project *a lot* of certainty into what we're saying that truly isn't there.
    Actually, in our case, it's the INFP who speaks with force and certainty, not me the "J" (unless you're talking about dominant function here, which would make my INFP a J-dom and me a P-dom. In which case that is true.)

    I suspect many Ps are so certain of their perception of it that they don't believe it's projected- it maybe seems like there's no way someone can have that tone and not be certain.....
    I have a somewhat different arrangement of these elements. Yes, my INFP is very certain of her perception - even when she's wrong, she's internally and externally convinced at the time that she's 100% correct. In contrast, I am ALWAYS questioning (internally and/or externally) any conclusions I come to at some level, and am always at some level open to a given situation being different from what I see going on at the moment.

    I find my INFP's tone when stating her assessments and conclusions to be very forceful. Internally, I "code" her kind of tone as indicating a very rigorous process of taking in lots of data and painstakingly detailed analysis. Such a forceful tone, to me, means that the assessment or conclusion is the tip of a very large iceberg composed of masses of data inflow and analytical analysis of that data from the ground up.

    But in terms of her actual information processing, my INFP will make very forceful assessments and conclusions with very little actual information about the situation at hand, and little analysis other than "This reminds me of [a pattern from my past] so therefore this is what's happening" or "[My values say X and this is inside/outside those values so it is true/not true, okay/not okay."

    edited to add: I just remembered this! Another layer of those interactions. I will often use possible conceptual keys or frameworks as jumping-off material to help me to understand what's going on. I'm not particularly attached to the frameworks when I do this, I'm just trying to get some sort of useful anchor as I try to understand and articulate the information flowing in through Ni-Se. But when I do this, my partner assumes I am "making an argument" by using whatever concept or framework I'm using.

    So for example (behind a spoiler for length):


    but I believe the reason most INFJs back away from acquaintanceships is because there's so much uncertainty surfacing about the interpersonal dynamics with someone that it gets overwhelming. There's this "I don't know if it's you or if it's me, but something about this has become more effort than it's worth" element to it, I don't know how else to describe it. I think that everyone experiences that feeling every now and then- but we seem to experience it at the drop of a hat.
    Interesting point about acquaintanceships. Never thought of it like that, but it make sense to me.

    I think the reciprocate may be the 'manipulation' and 'playing stupid' it seems like NFPs do- it's really hard to imagine not having access to those parts of my memory that prevent me from even attempting to put forward the kinds of 'raw batter' that NFPs do. I could either trust it really is their blind spot- even though I can't imagine what that would be like to not remember details that would render what I'm putting forth obsolete- or I can assume they really do remember the details and they're just trying to see if they can get away with it/checking to see if I'm stupid enough to buy what they're saying (which is how it appears).
    I'm not sure what this is about because I haven't been following the details of the conversation really closely. But I have had many experiences with my INFP where she will make a definitive statement and I will ask for concrete data/examples to back it up, and she says she can't remember any concrete examples and doesn't do the details like I do. Is that related at all to what you're saying here?

    And on this topic, I've also had the experience of her mis-remembering certain concrete details in ways that seem tailored to proving a point that her Te-inf is trying to make in relation to Fi. But when she does this, she is 100% certain she is correct in her memory and I am wrong, despite the fact that I have a scary-accurate memory for the details of human interaction (linked in part to some of my professional work). I can certainly be wrong, but many times I am not.

    Overall, my INFP partner seems to truly hate the Ti-heavy analysis of lived experience that comes up for me when I am trying to figure out what's actually going on between us. It makes her angry. And I find myself really really frustrated with what I experience as the faux-logic of her Te-inf because its logic seems to be about justifying her Fi and Fi-Se conclusions and judgements.

    more eta:

    Yep. The inability to take in criticism and allow for realities that aren't flattering- though the exact manifestation may vary according to 'type' (with some 'type' commonalities that surface)- is not, in itself, type related. While Ni may back away without being able to say anything, Ne tends to blast people with self-serving shape-shifty logic (without much concern for how it's making people on the other end feel, because empathy has been shut off).
    I really don't think that "self-serving shape-shify logic" is Ne, at least not in the INFP configuration. I really think that's Fi-Te (with Te-inf serving Fi). Ne has a much lighter and more playful feel, and is not hardcore judgmental like that Fi-Te combination. And yes, "self-serving shape-shify logic" is a good description of that Fi-Te thing, in my experience. Basically, Te finds plausible arguments that justify what Fi has already concluded. Attempts to track that logic as if it really is objective (as Te-inf fancies itself to be in this context) yields exposure of that self-serving shape-shifty dynamic. Though it's like tying to pin down smoke to address it directly.

    Seems to me that healthy infusion of Ne could be really useful to break the pattern when the INFP Fi-Te thing gets going.
    Last edited by Werebudgie; 01-23-2014 at 05:54 PM. Reason: to add something I just remembered

  7. #1397
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Therefore, building on your analogy:

    INFJs - Less rigid (weak) ego boundaries hence a more malleable ego/sense of self...More susceptible to being hurt by external emotional fluctuations hence more rigid exterior structures/gateways/armor...From outside appears as authoritarian/unyielding...as well as less adaptable

    INFP - More rigid (strong) ego boundaries hence a less malleable ego/sense of self...Less susceptible to being hurt by external emotional fluctuations hence less rigid exterior structures/gateways/armor...From outside appears as whimsical/capricous/flighty...as well as more adaptable
    Basically, yes. Except we can be hurt too.

    So INFPs' (or Fi-doms'/auxes') way of making themselves more vulnerable may be, based on these descriptions, letting more criticism by the partner seep into their ego (making their ego more malleable for the partner) and trying to consciously regulate the surges...
    Hmm, perhaps.

    To me, it feels like INFP has this fuzzy Fi framework and is trying to scan the entire framework so that INFP can get a focus on and pinpoint where the answer to the issue at hand lies in the framework...

    On the other hand, I already have some certain definite parameters of the issue decided in my mind that I believe would serve as cornerstones for the INFP (or any other party) so that the INFP can pin them on his/her Fi-framework and just concentrate on the area lying inbetween rather than making an entire (lengthy) scan of the framework...

    So I have been basically limiting the area to be focused (hence shortening evaluation duration) but, OTOH, allowing the INFP to come to his/her own conclusions inside that limited area...This I guess may make INFP (or Fi-dom/aux) uneasy and may seem as I am forcing them to leave certain parts of the framework out of evaluation so may feel to them as being forced/channeled towards a certain conclusion...
    Yes, I can see the value it that. And yes, that is how it feels on the receiving end. It feels like you only want to give me the perception of choice, but not an actual choice.

    Ne, OTOH, may voice out several possibilities and Ni would shoot them down leaving the only viable option (from Ni perspective) alive...This may feel as invalidation to Ne...
    Yes.

    I do not know what it takes for INFPs to reduce many possibilities/options in their mind down to a single conclusion...how or do you zoom into the relevant part of the framework to arrive at a single conclusion/decision to your satisfaction regarding any given issue? Back and forth Ne banter?
    It's a combination of mental trial and error and an intuition for what will and won't work. It's like how Se physically/tangibly wants to test things out, before they can come to a conclusion, but Ne wants to try on the different options and combinations in theoretical terms to see which fits. Ji gives us a fuzzy, intuitive picture of the conclusion (which is distinct and clear in flavour - ie. I'll know it when I see it) and we try to feel our way to get to that place.

    I think Lenore Thomson used the metaphor of NFPs finding the perfect spaghetti sauce. We can imagine clearly in our heads what the perfect spaghetti sauce will taste like, but we don't know how to create that exact taste. Si will give us some background on what sorts of basic ingredients are useful, so we try to sample and combine those in certain approaches, guided by the Fi ideal image and the Ne intuitive nose for things, until we get there. Someone else might offer up their spaghetti sauce recipe and allow us to taste it. It might not be 'right' but it might provide some Si data (even if it's completely 'wrong') that provides a Ne spark of ideas that advances things. We can then factor this into the mix and allow us to refine our work-in-progress sauce. This is not just a metaphor; I literally cook just like this. I have a strong idea of how I want the meal to taste, and will repeatedly test and make subtle additions until it tastes like I imagined it would in my head.

    Note: we don't try on every option - like PB says below, we quickly eliminate a large amount, and then narrow things down from there. Ask any NP if they like(d) doing group brainstorming at school or work. We seriously HATE it. It's so friggin slow and labourious, and insists that we write down and consider every, goddamn option. Ugh! One group brainstorming session in school, and the following refinement/selection of options, took anywhere from 10-100 times longer than it would if I did it in my head. It just feels like torture, because I'm having my arms and legs bound then being forced to crawl at snail's pace when all I want to do is run.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    This. All this.
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    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  8. #1398
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post


    This clarifies some things for me. I will think more on this.

    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    What causes you to be irritated with other people's strong emotions? What feelings do they invoke in you? Fear, anger etc.? Is there a relation there with childhood and parenting style?
    To barge in...

    It basically comes down to a lack of self-awareness and personal responsibility when emotionally throwing your weight around. I don't always react negatively to strong emotions, only when I feel like the person is playing games with emotions (intentionally or carelessly). Sensing strong feeling in others evokes different emotions depending on the context. In positive usage I can experience the deepest of empathy. If it's a negative usage, common possible feelings are: betrayal, a sense of injustice, that I'm being driven away (the anti-thesis of intimacy), helplessness, outrage or frustration with the hypocrisy/inconsistency of it, like I'm not being considered, that I can't think straight and want to get away from it. I'll go back to that metaphor of the crying baby: I feel the variety of emotions much like another person present (depending on the circumstances and my level of intimacy with that person).

    One possible situation could be that the crying baby and it's mother are in a cafe, and I'm another customer. The mother is just sitting there and leaving the baby crying (because it doesn't bother her or she's just used to it), and it's seriously disrupting me. I can feel pretty unforgiving in that situation, because IMO the mother should either get the baby under control or leave. She should not just leave it crying without consideration of the impact to the other patrons - because her baby, and her choice to do nothing about it, are dictating the conditions that everyone else must endure. It's selfish and inconsiderate. In another situation, I could be in the supermarket and see a flustered mother at the check out trying to do her shopping, whilst attempting to hold (and calm) her screaming baby. She has to do her shopping and doesn't have much choice about being there. In that case, I feel empathy for her troubles, and may go up and try to help her with the baby (eg. hold it while she's busy or try to comfort/distract it) so she can get her things finished. Hey, even a joke about how much kids seem to hate the supermarket might make her feel a little less embarrassed.

    What do you mean when you say that about childhood? Do you mean my childhood or the other persons? Can you expand on that?

    I thought they can wield/control their emotions much better than others therefore would be less susceptible to other people's emotional surges/outbursts...I may have been mistaken...perhaps INFPs are hurt more by lack of (any kind of) emotional feedback so in such cases they try invoking emotions in others? I don't really know...
    We're more adaptable to those fluctuations but not impenetrable. We can naturally go with the flow, but we are hurt just as much by people unleashing on us or ignoring us.

    OTOH, why the need to keep emotions (safe?) inside...? Have externally expressed emotions been used against you (to humiliate you etc.) in the past? Does that have something to do with your childhood and your parenting?
    I think every INFP has had their emotions used against them when they were young. It has less to do with their upbringing and more to do with their naturally sensitivity to that. After it happens enough (usually by about age 13 or so), we get a bit more 'hard' externally, maybe even a little cold at times. You know that Beatles song, You've Got to Hide Your Love Away? That's like the INFP anthem. If you feel intensely and with great depth, don't let people see it, because it leaves you so incredibly vulnerable.

    What can INFJs here to do to make themselves more comprehensible to a Fi user? What can we do to expedite the process? What kind of interaction/reasoning style do Fi users respond better to? Some tools to employ other then analogies?
    Don't be afraid to tell us your experiences or what your ideas and opinions are. This will allow us to understand you and figure out what we thing ourselves. If you need specific things from us, or want to know something specific, be more direct about it - we're not good at picking up Fe hints or signals. I think this is part of what Fi-users find difficult about the doorslam stuff - it's like you're ending things with us before we've been given a chance to change and/or give you what you need. The idea that someone might cut us off because we unknowingly screwed up, really freaks us out.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    What in the world is "raw batter"
    I think it originates in that thread, INFPs, what do INFJs do that drives you nuts?. It was about how Ne presenting unfinished ideas to Ni was like giving them raw batter rather than a cake. There can be an expectation then that the other person has to do the work of cooking the cake themselves before figuring out how it's meant to taste.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  9. #1399
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post


    This clarifies some things for me. I will think more on this.

    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    What causes you to be irritated with other people's strong emotions? What feelings do they invoke in you? Fear, anger etc.? Is there a relation there with childhood and parenting style?
    To barge in...

    It basically comes down to a lack of self-awareness and personal responsibility when emotionally throwing your weight around. I don't always react negatively to strong emotions, only when I feel like the person is playing games with emotions (intentionally or carelessly). Sensing strong feeling in others evokes different emotions depending on the context. In positive usage I can experience the deepest of empathy. If it's a negative usage, common possible feelings are: betrayal, a sense of injustice, that I'm being driven away (the anti-thesis of intimacy), helplessness, outrage or frustration with the hypocrisy/inconsistency of it, like I'm not being considered, that I can't think straight and want to get away from it. I'll go back to that metaphor of the crying baby: I feel the variety of emotions much like another person present (depending on the circumstances and my level of intimacy with that person).

    One possible situation could be that the crying baby and it's mother are in a cafe, and I'm another customer. The mother is just sitting there and leaving the baby crying (because it doesn't bother her or she's just used to it), and it's seriously disrupting me. I can feel pretty unforgiving in that situation, because IMO the mother should either get the baby under control or leave. She should not just leave it crying without consideration of the impact to the other patrons - because her baby, and her choice to do nothing about it, are dictating the conditions that everyone else must endure. It's selfish and inconsiderate. In another situation, I could be in the supermarket and see a flustered mother at the check out trying to do her shopping, whilst attempting to hold (and calm) her screaming baby. She has to do her shopping and doesn't have much choice about being there. In that case, I feel empathy for her troubles, and may go up and try to help her with the baby (eg. hold it while she's busy or try to comfort/distract it) so she can get her things finished. Hey, even a joke about how much kids seem to hate the supermarket might make her feel a little less embarrassed and alone.

    What do you mean when you say that about childhood? Do you mean my childhood or the other persons? Can you expand on that?

    I thought they can wield/control their emotions much better than others therefore would be less susceptible to other people's emotional surges/outbursts...I may have been mistaken...perhaps INFPs are hurt more by lack of (any kind of) emotional feedback so in such cases they try invoking emotions in others? I don't really know...
    We're more adaptable to those fluctuations but not impenetrable. We can naturally go with the flow, but we are hurt just as much by people unleashing on us or ignoring us.

    OTOH, why the need to keep emotions (safe?) inside...? Have externally expressed emotions been used against you (to humiliate you etc.) in the past? Does that have something to do with your childhood and your parenting?
    I think every INFP has had their emotions used against them when they were young. It has less to do with their upbringing and more to do with their naturally sensitivity to that. After it happens enough (usually by about age 13 or so), we get a bit more 'hard' externally, maybe even a little cold at times. You know that Beatles song, You've Got to Hide Your Love Away? That's like the INFP anthem. If you feel intensely and with great depth, don't let people see it, because it leaves you so incredibly vulnerable.

    What can INFJs here to do to make themselves more comprehensible to a Fi user? What can we do to expedite the process? What kind of interaction/reasoning style do Fi users respond better to? Some tools to employ other then analogies?
    Don't be afraid to tell us your experiences or what your ideas and opinions are. This will allow us to understand you and figure out what we think ourselves. If you need specific things from us, be more direct about it - we're not good at picking up Fe hints or signals. I think this is part of what Fi-users find difficult about the doorslam stuff - it's like you're ending things with us before we've been given a chance to change and/or give you what you need. The idea that someone might cut us off because we unknowingly screwed up, really freaks us out.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    What in the world is "raw batter"
    I think it originates in that thread, INFPs, what do INFJs do that drives you nuts?. It was about how Ne presenting unfinished ideas to Ni was like giving them raw batter rather than a cake. There can be an expectation then that the other person has to do the work of baking the cake themselves before figuring out how it's meant to taste.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  10. #1400

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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I meant INFPs' childhood and the attitude of their parents...I think I learnt relying on Ni because the environment I had been brought up had conflicting appearant and underlying information (inconsistency in what is said and what is done, I do not know how to put this) so I had to learn how to smell and recognize what is not said (subtext/undertone) and adapt to the subtext rather than the actual text so that I could satisfy my parents and not feel bad...So I am trying to use that as a pattern for Fi...

    So in INFPs case, could it be possible that in INFPs environment, there had been an inconsistency in what is said about how one felt and how one actually felt, due to which INFPs had to learn how to smell and recognize how one (parents?) actually felt despite declaring otherwise?

    So could it be that when someone does not own up to his/her feelings and declare/acknowledge them outright, xNFPs interpret that as dishonesty (or blind spot?) and therefore as a threat, or a sign that the other does not trust INFP? I may be really off here I am just brainstorming and offering up ideas as they come to me...

    I am also under the impression that xNFPs feel more at ease in environments where feelings are not held back and are expressed in a more lively fashion...that they can swim and navigate inside the emotionally rich/abundant environment...whereas emotionally scarce environments (where emotions are held back or not relinquished) make them feel like they are navigating in the dark and that makes them afraid...they cannot read the emotions (Fe external front gives the impression that all is well?) and cannot maneuver themselves out of harms way in time so that they won't be hurt...(but why then INFPs are drawn to ENTJs or ESTJs? Common Ne or Te language does not leave INFPs' in the dark?)

    So basically, in case of relationships with INFJs, xNFPs cannot see the doorslam coming therefore cannot maneuver and avoid getting out of its (hurt's) way...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Don't be afraid to tell us your experiences or what your ideas and opinions are. This will allow us to understand you and figure out what we think ourselves. If you need specific things from us, be more direct about it - we're not good at picking up Fe hints or signals. I think this is part of what Fi-users find difficult about the doorslam stuff - it's like you're ending things with us before we've been given a chance to change and/or give you what you need. The idea that someone might cut us off because we unknowingly screwed up, really freaks us out.
    Likewise, INFPs should give unaltered Si narratives of the things that left them in the dark in the past...Ti can breakdown and integrate Si material much faster than Ne material (i.e. raw banter)...

    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie
    If Fi doms/auxes are in relationship with an INFJ, as building on what @Werebudgie said, they should not put forward "raw banter" i.e. assumptions as facts in a forceful tone (i.e. regulate emotional surges)...check facts with INFJ...and try to give more credit (and time) to statements INFJ makes (because they do not come easy to us)...and try to really integrate what the INFJs say in to your framework (i.e. let it seep into your ego)...I guess that requires enormous trust for INFPs and am not sure if that's possible...

    Or perhaps Fi doms/auxes and Fe doms/auxes are not really meant for each other...I do not know...
    Last edited by yeghor; 01-24-2014 at 06:55 AM. Reason: Blue added

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