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  1. #1381
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    That is not how xxxPs structure information in their brains in an effort to navigate the world...that is quite distinctly xxxJ.
    I'm on board with this.

    As I said in an above post: most other types feel *way* more comfortable plowing forward when they catch a whiff of unbalanced power dynamics- I think that INFJs are exceptionally sensitive to it whilst having the least amount confidence that we know we’re Right about the gut feelings we get. I think that probably more doorslams than not are because the INFJ has a gut feeling they can’t get rid of, whilst being totally and completely unsure about whether it really is the other person or if it’s them- and (we're so absolutely and completely bombarded with Ni possibilities that) figuring out where and how to draw a boundary starts looking like one of Gödel's theorems.

    INFPs have an advantage in that they seem to inherently feel an importance of their personal viewpoint that we struggle to justify. On the downside, it can make them sound "me me me"- but on the plus side, they are ABLE to say "me me me" in a pinch, when backed into that corner where it becomes necessary; when INFJs get backed into that corner......*crickets and tumbleweeds*. And while I think a great many INFPs are too humble to actually say "me me me" lightly, my point is rather that they have more access to it than we do in the first place.

    I think that INFJs don't want to say anything until they are relatively certain (1) they aren't being controlling (many have expressed loathing about forcing their ideals onto other people) and that the need they are to assert is completely reasonable and (2) the person in question would prefer they assert that need rather than simply back away and disappear. [It's rather ironic- people who show up and say that backing away/"doorslamming" is a form of "controlling" are inadvertently locking in any suspicion they are indeed 'incompatible'. I think it appears outwardly as some need to control the external environment, but it's more like a need to be able to know what to expect in the external environment because it's so entirely taxing to have our focus dragged out there (least Se). The more someone else needs to perceive this as 'control'- they more I feel the need to distance them because they clearly see the world so absolutely differently from me that perceptions are likely irreconcilable.]

    eta: Actually- I think this is something totally germaine to the discussion- if someone around me expresses the opinion that they think I'm "controlling", I am absolutely going to back away from them......not because it's unflattering, but because I'm not interested in "controlling" anyone. The notion that I'm backing away because it's not flattering is.....a very petty assumption to me. It presumes I could change if I wanted to- and that I'm simply dismissing the opinion because I don't want to believe it. On the contrary, it's because I believe that's their experience- and if the best I can do at being malleable is still coming across as 'controlling', then that person is incompatible with me because I have no interest in making someone feel controlled.

    I think that- because J types tend to have a more forceful tone- Ps project *a lot* of certainty into what we're saying that truly isn't there. I suspect many Ps are so certain of their perception of it that they don't believe it's projected- it maybe seems like there's no way someone can have that tone and not be certain.....but I believe the reason most INFJs back away from acquaintanceships is because there's so much uncertainty surfacing about the interpersonal dynamics with someone that it gets overwhelming. There's this "I don't know if it's you or if it's me, but something about this has become more effort than it's worth" element to it, I don't know how else to describe it. I think that everyone experiences that feeling every now and then- but we seem to experience it at the drop of a hat.

    I think the reciprocate may be the 'manipulation' and 'playing stupid' it seems like NFPs do- it's really hard to imagine not having access to those parts of my memory that prevent me from even attempting to put forward the kinds of 'raw batter'* that NFPs do. I could either trust it really is their blind spot- even though I can't imagine what that would be like to not remember details that would render what I'm putting forth obsolete- or I can assume they really do remember the details and they're just trying to see if they can get away with it/checking to see if I'm stupid enough to buy what they're saying (which is how it appears).

    more eta:
    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    i know plenty of ep and ip types who jump to feeling attacked rather quickly.

    [...]

    it's only realistic and productive to acknowledge that in protective mode, the ego can't really do a great job of empathizing and taking on others' realities. that's a fact that transcends type. the conflicts we are discussing are a result of that fact more than a result of the types themselves simply conflicting out of their own inherent nature (and nfp/nfj can be difficult when trust is lost because we don't have a lot of cognitive common ground, even if our values and ego-types are often deeply overlapping).
    Yep. The inability to take in criticism and allow for realities that aren't flattering- though the exact manifestation may vary according to 'type' (with some 'type' commonalities that surface)- is not, in itself, type related. While Ni may back away without being able to say anything, Ne tends to blast people with self-serving shape-shifty logic (without much concern for how it's making people on the other end feel, because empathy has been shut off).


    *eta: Because people have asked, my original 'raw batter' analogy under spoiler:

    Last edited by Z Buck McFate; 01-29-2014 at 09:17 PM.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  2. #1382
    Awake Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    what exactly are you referring to? i think zbuck is stating that the flattering/unflattering aspect is central in the critique as a whole. that infjs only accept flattery, and they reject unflattery, blaming the other person and doorslamming them as a result.

    so to me, it sounds like the question is whether infjs automatically, always, in any circumstance in which they are not seen as positive, interpret that as if they are being attacked. and that they do this uniquely, based on how their cognition works in general. that doesn't make much sense.

    i know plenty of ep and ip types who jump to feeling attacked rather quickly. i notice that 4, 6, and 8 are all kind of finicky, mercurial, and difficult. they make up like, the dark triad. but 4 is especially unique in terms of withdrawing, which is think is kind of what we're going for here. and you see 4s in ep (3w4), ip (4w3, 4w5, 5w4), ij (4w5, 5w4), ej (3w4). i think 4 is the best to focus on because there would be more of a tendency for a withdrawn type to withdraw, but this would depend on other factors. for instance, say, how 4 expresses itself in conjunction with 3 in 3w4 which presents more of a borderline personality disorder disintegration pattern than with a 5 that has more of a paranoid disintegration pattern.

    i also know that in the past, i've definitely been one of those sensitive people. i've cut ties, altho unlike many others, i've never done so permanently. but i've also gone through huge phases of withdrawal in general, so the line does not seem entirely clear to me. the angry part of me, the resentful part of me, might feel some blame towards them for "making me feel this way," (which is setting a person up not to own their own feelings), but in general there was just a lot of my own issues and repressed emotions that i didn't know how to truly see, truly feel, and truly work with directly.

    but it, "doorslamming," has so much to do with so many things. i've seen it in less snarky but equally nose-up, hypercritical versions with an enfp so/sp friend of mine. an infp 9w1 sx/sp. an enfj 1w2 sx/so. maybe a connection to 1 is part of it, this sense of self-righteousness that accompanies the decision to cut ties in a clearly ego-mediated, self-protective move. for me it had to do with self-shaming that compounded what i was feeling while, at the same time, locating not only the judgment but the feeling itself outside of me, in the other person. and then not recognizing how to cleanse myself of that, so carrying it around and having that feel like i was being suffocated by this person's influence on my world, because i did not know how to own my own feelings and both observe and work with them directly, to really dive into them so i can release the energy they have wound together within me. but if your tendency is to disconnect because if you observe yourself, your self-shaming tendency will likely run amok, you just create a kind of neurotic split where you don't truly know how to be with your own emotions and own them as yours. without doing this, there's no way of using these emotions as information that can help lead you back to a deeper understanding of your own needs.

    finally, a lot of the time the "doorslamming" witch hunt thing comes from people who are obviously hurting and not really sure how to own their own shit either. "doorslamming" as an accusation or evidence of character flaw is completely unproductive and a really obvious lack of empathy, which is generally both a result of and an influence that makes more likely these kinds of relational splits in the first place. accusing someone of being childish or condemning them as "self-destructive" and "selfish" for leaving or needing to take responsibility for their own boundaries and/or personal space isn't a really fair move to make. but as a communication breakdown problem, it's complicated to assess. it's only realistic and productive to acknowledge that in protective mode, the ego can't really do a great job of empathizing and taking on others' realities. that's a fact that transcends type. the conflicts we are discussing are a result of that fact more than a result of the types themselves simply conflicting out of their own inherent nature (and nfp/nfj can be difficult when trust is lost because we don't have a lot of cognitive common ground, even if our values and ego-types are often deeply overlapping).
    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    i mean, i love cognitive functions as much as anyone, but to me they are helpful for socio-cognitive things. trying to pin down the nature of shared experience, what we can observe, the modality of information for each other, etc. concpetualizing the structure of information. and as information about ourselves i do think it has a predictive quality for who we are and how we work, sure, especially in terms of systems and concrete tasks in career and whatnot.

    but ultimately, in relational conflict, a more psychosocial, psychoanalytic, ego focus is more helpful to understand personal differences that result in different needs and the patterns that emerge that reciprocally reinforce and result from those needs. especially in terms of how we interpret them. these are more helpful in terms of the "who someone is" humanistically, what their relationship with themselves is likely to be like.
    Perhaps it is the case that you are just making use of my quote and getting a message out... but if you are truly lecturing me in this regard then you do not understand my views on doorslamming at all.

    Anyone is allowed to depart from my life at anytime they please. My ex is not the first person to cut-off all communication with me. He is the first person to cut-off all communication with me without providing me an explanation as to why. Prior to this I took 'the explanation' part for granted. I didn't recognize how dependent I am on that piece for recovery. And having first feared for him for several months...then wondered forever what it was that I did...and on and on and on... I'm here because I'm interested in making sure this never happens to me again. That's all.

    with that said...I'm sick and I'm going to grab a cup of coffee and see if there is anything else I care to add after reading Z Buck's subsequent post.
    Walk first through the fire.


    *Currently participating in the "No Likes" experiment.

  3. #1383
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    @Z Buck McFate: I'm pretty sure you have me on ignore (I mean, who could miss the dozen or so references to IGNORING people in this thread) but I need to ask you a question anyway. I mean, I know you don't actually read many other posts either, which in the internet forum world is akin to not listening, but I would appreciate it if you could help me with a definition at this point in time. Maybe some kindly person could quote me and then Z Buck can see? Bonus points if an INFJ quotes me since Z will more likely read that.

    What in the world is "raw batter" - you've used that expression so many times now it's become utterly ambiguous to me. I mean, my bikini tops aren't matching my bottoms, but after all, spaghetti sauce did spill everywhere last time I invited you over for dinner. I had to change into something!

    P.S. This question is not me 'playing stupid', it's legitimate, but the rest is me being a smart-ass.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
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  4. #1384
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    Perhaps it is the case that you are just making use of my quote and getting a message out... but if you are truly lecturing me in this regard then you do not understand my views on doorslamming at all.

    Anyone is allowed to depart from my life at anytime they please. My ex is not the first person to cut-off all communication with me. He is the first person to cut-off all communication with me without providing me an explanation as to why. Prior to this I took 'the explanation' part for granted. I didn't recognize how dependent I am on that piece for recovery. And having first feared for him for several months...then wondered forever what it was that I did...and on and on and on... I'm here because I'm interested in making sure this never happens to me again. That's all.

    with that said...I'm sick and I'm going to grab a cup of coffee and see if there is anything else I care to add after reading Z Buck's subsequent post.
    only the first part was a response to what you said. i should have used a couple of line breaks after, because you're right, it was just my overall response and not to you.

    i'm sorry you had such a shitty experience. i wouldn't know how to handle that myself. i'd probably self-shame, be extremely resentful, and be terrified that it would happen again. it would be hard to trust myself enough to let it go and find my bearings, accept where i'm at, and just do my best from then on out. that's at least a difficult process that i have struggled with when feeling rejected in general.

  5. #1385
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    Anyone is allowed to depart from my life at anytime they please. My ex is not the first person to cut-off all communication with me. He is the first person to cut-off all communication with me without providing me an explanation as to why. Prior to this I took 'the explanation' part for granted. I didn't recognize how dependent I am on that piece for recovery. And having first feared for him for several months...then wondered forever what it was that I did...and on and on and on... I'm here because I'm interested in making sure this never happens to me again. That's all.
    I'm not sure if I'm breaking my rule to not generalize by the way I'm going to write this, but I couldn't think of a way to say this using my own experiences.

    My best guess? Your ex is thinking that you already should know the explanation. He probably expected you to pick up on the subtle clues and interpret them the way he meant them. And if you say you don't know, or you didn't pick up on those subtle clues, well, he'll tell himself that you must be lying about that. How could you not notice and correctly interpret subtle body language and emotional clues? And if you don't know, well, he's not going to tell you. You need to figure it out for yourself. Especially if you really cared.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  6. #1386
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    If you are referring specifically to what Z Buck presented (minus the 'flattery' factor) then I strongly disagree. That is not how xxxPs structure information in their brains in an effort to navigate the world...that is quite distinctly xxxJ. Whether that structure leads to doorslamming...this I do not believe.
    I will suggest here that the self concept of the NP is possibly the strongest of any type's self-concept, and because of this it is much more traumatic to a sense of self to accept information that undermines their foundational assumptions about who they are. If they consider self to be logical and objective, then you will not convince them otherwise. If they consider self to be empathetic and kind, they will not be convinced otherwise. It isn't about action, but about being. For the Te and the Fe it is about doing and not being, so to present criticism is to recommend a change in action and not to undermine a sense of self. When NPs do intake conflicting information about a sense of self it can cause them to fall into a deep confusion and self-loathing. It is also difficult for NP types to distance themselves from criticism and take it in as something that is not undermining of self. The Fi-Si and Ti-Si loops create a stronger absolute sense of being based on experience and strong, conclusive internal frameworks of reality. There can be a unique level of clarity in this combination, but it does tend towards projection and dismissal of information that falls outside of it. I think you have the constructs backwards.

    Ni and Si people can be absolutely distorted in their thinking, but at least for Ni, it is not dismissal of external data, but rather poor internal processing that results in faulty conclusions. Perhaps I am mistaken, but can explain why I am?
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
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  7. #1387
    Awake Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    only the first part was a response to what you said. i should have used a couple of line breaks after, because you're right, it was just my overall response and not to you.

    i'm sorry you had such a shitty experience. i wouldn't know how to handle that myself.
    Thanks. Yah, I'm absolutely NOT on an INFJ witch hunt. If anything my experience has expanded my compassion for the INFJ...and all types for that matter. <-I don't imagine this always shines through in how I communicate though.

    Z Buck's post looks good to me.
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  8. #1388
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    @Z Buck McFate: I'm pretty sure you have me on ignore (I mean, who could miss the dozen or so references to IGNORING people in this thread) but I need to ask you a question anyway. I mean, I know you don't actually read many other posts either, which in the internet forum world is akin to not listening, but I would appreciate it if you could help me with a definition at this point in time. Maybe some kindly person could quote me and then Z Buck can see? Bonus points if an INFJ quotes me since Z will more likely read that.

    What in the world is "raw batter" - you've used that expression so many times now it's become utterly ambiguous to me. I mean, my bikini tops aren't matching my bottoms, but after all, spaghetti sauce did spill everywhere last time I invited you over for dinner. I had to change into something!

    P.S. This question is not me 'playing stupid', it's legitimate, but the rest is me being a smart-ass.
    from my perspective, sounding angry or a bit spiteful is more than just being honest with how you feel. it's asking the other person to take on the responsibility to help deal with your anger directly, rather than with your vulnerability. it's asking them to offer their vulnerability rather than you offering your own. while tinging their vulnerability with a feeling of blame. it just almost always brings out the worst in me, and i'm often not strong enough to focus on what would be best and move on. it also makes me feel responsible for someone else's needs without feeling like my needs have been heard. at times i can own up to that challenge and do that. a lot of the times, i don't.

    the raw batter thing i presume to mean the unfilteredness of experience. for us, we identify with that less; that's less of who we are, and we're more of our interpretation of that, how we organize that into an intention that feels worth it or not worth it. we're not so attached to holding on to our experience. we're much more attached to holding on to a sense of the value of our intention. an attitude that we can believe in. that's how we see that our aim can harmonize with the aim of others and feel like we can truly accomplish something together.

    at the same time, i agree that sometimes it is worth it, in relationships that you are committed to, to really stay through the conflict and work through the conflict rather than run away from it. but to do that, i personally would need reason to commit, and to feel like i had a chance to be heard eventually, and that it would be part of what i need to grow as well. i know i need a lot of support to work through issues that have been made cold by shame. or i need a lot of investment and a lot of trust, a lot of attachment that helps me feel why it could be worth it to do the work now, in this situation, with this person. there just needs to be a belief in the spirit of us (and i have not been very good throughout most of my life at really steadying this sense of belief; also, see: e4, existential angst, self-esteem, depression, etc).

    there may be more to this, or a way of communicating what the needs we actually have (or i actually have) to understand how to allow others to feel like they know where we are at more. i totally am on board with this idea, because even marginal improvements for me have changed a lot in my relationships.

  9. #1389
    Awake Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    I'm not sure if I'm breaking my rule to not generalize by the way I'm going to write this, but I couldn't think of a way to say this using my own experiences.

    My best guess? Your ex is thinking that you already should know the explanation. He probably expected you to pick up on the subtle clues and interpret them the way he meant them. And if you say you don't know, or you didn't pick up on those subtle clues, well, he'll tell himself that you must be lying about that. How could you not notice and correctly interpret subtle body language and emotional clues? And if you don't know, well, he's not going to tell you. You need to figure it out for yourself. Especially if you really cared.

    My ex didn't really have a problem telling me off haha. What happened was he came to believe I had done something I had not...and told me off. <-Once he figured-out I was innocent in that regard he really fell apart (stopped eating, stopped sleeping...stopped talking.)

    I think I no longer belong in the doorslamming thread. I think I belong in the 'Shame for Dummies' thread.
    Walk first through the fire.


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  10. #1390
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    My ex didn't really have a problem telling me off haha. What happened was he came to believe I had done something I had not...and told me off. <-Once he figured-out I was innocent in that regard he really fell apart (stopped eating, stopped sleeping...stopped talking.)

    I think I no longer belong in the doorslamming thread. I think I belong in the 'Shame for Dummies' thread.
    Let me think about it and see if I can relate it to anything I've done.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

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