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Thread: When an INFJ doorslams you / cuts you out of their life / breaks off contact

  1. #1371
    Senior Member Array Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Peacebaby, tap your toe inside your shoe.

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    Intentionally Clementine Array Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    But I think the contention this is raising sorta revolves around the sudden emphasis of this "flattery" element.
    ^^yah I'll just say that I do not see this 'flattery' thing as it pertains to the INFJ. ENFJs...maybe...sometimes. But the thought of 'flattery' and 'INFJ' together in the same concept seems absurd to me really. (<-and this is actually regardless of health from my perspective.)
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    Vulnerability Array Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I’m not sure exactly where the definition of “doorslam” changed then, because the thread didn’t start with that definition?
    I can't say if the thread itself started with that definition, but, as for the discussion revolving around @Mane, that was the definition of doorslam that he was trying to discuss. It took until now for that to be determined because of a lot of confusion and misunderstanding. And since @yeghor brought that part of the discussion back to life, that was the definition that made the most sense to discuss.

    I believe you that, apparently, at some point that’s what other people here were referring to (exclusively- and the ‘peculiar’ part, to me, seems that the rest of us were just supposed to ‘know’ to completely ignore all the ways in which “doorslam” generally means something broader…..but in fairness, there are a couple people whose posts I can’t handle reading at all, so maybe I missed something).
    As far as I can tell, no one expected anyone to just 'know'. That definition has been stated several times, both in the old discussion and in this new one. But it seems that quite a few people (including myself) missed something, because, even though it was repeated several times, and restated to be made clearer, questions as to what a doorslam was kept coming up.

    And yeah, if we’re excluding instances from the term “doorslam” where it’s a valid and healthy choice to discontinue interaction….that changes a lot of things. I keep hearing insinuation (whether it’s still there or not) that INFJs only “think” they’re feeling distressed because someone else is overbearing, but the “truth” (the “INFJ blindspot”) is that we simply don’t like information that isn’t flattering and we tell ourselves some story (e.g: about how the other person is “overbearing”) so that we can dismiss the information. <- If absolutely no one here is insinuating that, then yeah, I’ve got the wrong impression.
    The definition wasn't being offered as 'truth', but as a topic for discussion in order to determine if it was true or not, and why. But the discussion never got to that point due to misunderstandings and misinterpretations.

    My first thought is that there’s a slight difference, in that defense mechanisms are something that kick in to protect the ego from the stress/pain/fear of feeling unlovable/unacceptable. Whereas I’d think these ‘blind spots” are more about something an entire type (healthy or not) is inclined to have a hard time seeing. But then, each ‘type’ is going to have some common defense mechanisms, so maybe. My point in that, though, was that these blind spots will necessarily only get worse in hostile environments- which is precisely why I feel like this discussion you’re trying to raise in this thread is like trying to put out a fire by throwing gasoline on it (focusing on the ‘liquid’ quality of it).
    So, the discussion is not worth having because it's too contentious? Is it more contentious than some other topics discussed on this forum, such as misogyny, or everyday sexism? Is there no way to have a civil discussion of difficult topics?

    Regarding the rest- I’m not going to continue that conversation in this thread. I feel like a lot of the things you’re saying are things I already know. I do know that I’ve already noticed quite a few tendencies in INFJs I know (that have annoyed me), and I have had realizations about seeing these things in myself. I’d see NFJ friends do something, have some theory about why they did it- and it always makes me realize that I know this because it’s something I do too. Discussing it would involve being open about certain insecurities, revealing vulnerabilities and weak spots- all of which I’m capable of. But I do not think it’s a good idea to reveal these things in certain company, in this thread, perhaps even in this forum (until the day when it’s possible to have a discussion and limit the people who can see it). I have my reasons- which I will not list here, if only because it would be unkind- to believe it would fall more on the ‘enabling’ end of the spectrum. I’m not even saying I know I’m right about this- I’m just saying the feeling is too strong to ignore how much of a very real possibility it is.
    Not joining in the discussion is a valid choice. No one is being forced to discuss anything they don't want to discuss, or do anything they don't want to do. But does that mean that the discussion shouldn't even be had?

    I think it’s great you’ve had some epiphany- I just don’t think that same epiphany for other INFJs is really hiding around the corner here as much as you seem to think it is? [At least I’m getting the impression you think it is…it feels to me like you’re pushing for others to follow you....in this thread. If I’m wrong about that, I apologize. ]
    Okay, we can call it an epiphany. That works for me. And, yes, I'm enthusiastic about what I learned, and I can see how that enthusiasm can look like pushiness. And I broke my own rule of not generalizing to all INFJs several times, for which I apologize. I'll keep my posts to my own experiences and stop generalizing from now on. But, if I'm pushing for others to follow me, it seems that some of them have had no qualms about pushing back. So, I'm not sure that there's a problem here. Is pushing for a different kind of discussion against forum rules? No one is being forced to read my posts, and perhaps there are people who are interested in what I have to say, the way I'm saying it. I would hope that I'm not being told that my pov is no longer welcome just because it's changed or makes some people uncomfortable.
    Johari / Nohari

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  4. #1374
    wants Mifune clone minion Array Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    I can't say if the thread itself started with that definition, but, as for the discussion revolving around Mane, that was the definition of doorslam that he was trying to discuss. It took until now for that to be determined because of a lot of confusion and misunderstanding. And since yeghor brought that part of the discussion back to life, that was the definition that made the most sense to discuss.


    As far as I can tell, no one expected anyone to just 'know'. That definition has been stated several times, both in the old discussion and in this new one. But it seems that quite a few people (including myself) missed something, because, even though it was repeated several times, and restated to be made clearer, questions as to what a doorslam was kept coming up.
    It seems like there are a couple things going on here, and to make this even more farcical- I’m not even reading a lot of the posts.

    There’s #1: in the context of discussing this with mane, “doorslam” is to mean (exclusively) an INFJ backing out of a relationship because they can’t handle criticism and they don’t want to accept information that isn’t flattering. Where someone is too overbearing/controlling- feeling entitled to dictate reality relentlessly (or at least relentlessly enough that the INFJ is too exhausted to keep up/defend him/herself)….that’s completely different and it’s a valid choice to walk away from that.

    And #2: whenever an INFJ backs away from someone, it’s almost always because they can’t handle information that isn’t flattering. They may say it’s because there’s something overbearing/controlling about the person, they may say the person just seems ‘incompatible’ and communication has become too difficult….they probably even believe this excuse, noticing details that support their rationalization and dismissing details that don’t support it….but really what’s going on is that the INFJ can’t handle any information that isn’t flattering.

    If #1 is, in fact, what’s going on- then yes, I’m pretty much wandering around in here aimlessly carrying a torch yelling “WHAT DO WE WANT? INFJ JUSTICE!! WHEN DO WE WANT IT? NAO!!” at shadows. I won’t lie, it’s a distinct possibility.

    To be perfectly clear, you don't see any of #2 being asserted by anyone here?

    The definition wasn't being offered as 'truth', but as a topic for discussion in order to determine if it was true or not, and why. But the discussion never got to that point due to misunderstandings and misinterpretations.
    Just out of curiosity, if INFJs here had calmly responded "no, I don't relate to that or see a whole lot of truth in that," do you think that would have been accepted? It's possible there's so much past frustration with this thread and with certain members that it's carrying over for me- but I do have a hard time believing 'no' would have actually been listened to, I'm guessing that would have just encouraged more 'explaining' how we're only kidding ourselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    So, the discussion is not worth having because it's too contentious? Is it more contentious than some other topics discussed on this forum, such as misogyny, or everyday sexism? Is there no way to have a civil discussion of difficult topics?
    It isn't about whether or not "contentious" is okay. My point was that trying to point out blind spots/defense mechanisms in contentious environments is rather counterproductive, and can actually only make the blind spots worse (because it makes people defensive). It's a point I'd been dropping here and there since the beginning of the thread. There's something about this thread that's kinda like seeing someone try to fix a flat tire by putting a band-aid on the leak.

    It’s just my two cents on (maybe) why you’re not getting any bites and why people are actually pushing back.


    Not joining in the discussion is a valid choice. No one is being forced to discuss anything they don't want to discuss, or do anything they don't want to do. But does that mean that the discussion shouldn't even be had?
    The paragraph this^ is in response to was in response to you describing what you got out of going back to read through old posts. I was trying to say that I haven’t actually seen you say anything (yet) that I feel like I haven’t noticed in the many, many hours I’ve spent of my life obsessing over whether or not to write someone off- I agree with a quite a bit of it- but I’m not even going to begin discussing it in this thread. Sometimes the line between “addressing the person you’re directly responding to” vs. “addressing everyone at the table” gets blurry here. It was a statement from me to you, explaining why I would not be joining the discussion.

    Yes, my opinion is that it seems enabling. To go beyond simply justifying the act of backing away and deeply examining it why it happens (the internal processes that take place)- where people can see and incorporate that information for fodder to get even more manipulative about it- seems like a very bad idea to me. But that doesn't mean I think my opinion should dictate the actions of others, it's just my opinion.

    Okay, we can call it an epiphany. That works for me. And, yes, I'm enthusiastic about what I learned, and I can see how that enthusiasm can look like pushiness. And I broke my own rule of not generalizing to all INFJs several times, for which I apologize. I'll keep my posts to my own experiences and stop generalizing from now on. But, if I'm pushing for others to follow me, it seems that some of them have had no qualms about pushing back. So, I'm not sure that there's a problem here. Is pushing for a different kind of discussion against forum rules? No one is being forced to read my posts, and perhaps there are people who are interested in what I have to say, the way I'm saying it. I would hope that I'm not being told that my pov is no longer welcome just because it's changed or makes some people uncomfortable.
    @bolded: yeah. That's part of it, but there was something else. I really should have just PMed you instead of responding in the thread. I posted in the thread because I know I wasn’t alone in having a bad reaction to the initial post, but there are questions I had to leave out since it was public. It might have cleared some things up if I’d PMed instead.

    But if that post was entirely about a specific kind of “doorslam” that happens because an INFJ can’t handle unflattering information- and it wasn’t insinuating that all/most doorslams (in the broader sense) happen because INFJs can’t handle unflattering information (regardless of what ‘story’ they’re giving themselves/rationalizing…..and other INFJs should realize that too and own it to improve the quality of their lives)- then it’s a moot point anyway.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  5. #1375
    Senior Member Array the state i am in's Avatar
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    "doorslamming" if it is a thing is simply a self-protective way of super awkwardly maintaining your own personal boundaries. the excessiveness of it is the result of not trusting yourself to hear your own needs.

    i've noticed many other types do it too. at it's most categorical, it's kind of an Fe thing. meanwhile, Fi avoid, and can be self-righteous in doing so, just the same. we all use stories to manipulate the truth too. i mean, i see relationship carnage in a lot of pasts. choosing to cut ties, and dramatizing that process to the point that one can no longer really hear what the fuck is going on because they can't hear their own feelings, clenched as they are, gripping in anger so that their hard outer shell simply reflects back every possible aggression.

    i do think e4 tends to heighten the fuck you i'm disconnecting doorslam quality. of the withdrawn triad, that'd be the one.

  6. #1376
    Senior Member Array yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    I can't say if the thread itself started with that definition, but, as for the discussion revolving around @Mane, that was the definition of doorslam that he was trying to discuss. It took until now for that to be determined because of a lot of confusion and misunderstanding. And since @yeghor brought that part of the discussion back to life, that was the definition that made the most sense to discuss.
    Your mentioning me somehow made me feel like:



    I think the distinction between what doorslam meant to those who have been vehemently condemning it and what it meant to those who have been using it as a last resort to bail out of oppressive relationship has recently been highlighted after the thread restarted (starting from page 105 or 106 I believe)...

    This I believe stemmed from those who were condemning it not articulating clearly what their experience of doorslam had exactly been like in the thread and deflecting questions, by INFJs requesting further clarification from them, due to misconstruing them as an attempt to invalidate their arguments...

    So I do not think I brought a different discussion back to life...I do not understand what the problem is exactly here (regarding what should be discussed and what should not) either...and the need to act defensive...

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Rather than pull the trigger on this, can I just give you a hug instead?

    Thank you for offering Peace, baby.

    Actually when I did get triggered with dismissal and scared the shit out of everyone someone accused me of seeming possessed by Marilyn Manson, so there is always the curiosity factor to what happens when you push the big red button.
    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    Off topic - but you don't do the above (what was presented in Z Buck's quote.) I mean, I'll happily pull any trigger anyone wants me to in this thread but I can't help you on this one.

    To suggest this isn't somewhat common though with regards to NFJs...this I'm not ready to sign off on. And I don't necessarily think it has anything to do with flattery.
    To suggest it isn't somewhat common with regards to human beings…this I'm not ready to sign off on.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grand Admiral Crunch View Post
    It might be fine for some people, but I rather not live in a world where people think it is okay for dolphins to rape each other.

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    Intentionally Clementine Array Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    To suggest it isn't somewhat common with regards to human beings…this I'm not ready to sign off on.
    If you are referring specifically to what Z Buck presented (minus the 'flattery' factor) then I strongly disagree. That is not how xxxPs structure information in their brains in an effort to navigate the world...that is quite distinctly xxxJ. Whether that structure leads to doorslamming...this I do not believe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    If you are referring specifically to what Z Buck presented (minus the 'flattery' factor) then I strongly disagree. That is not how xxxPs structure information in their brains in an effort to navigate the world...that is quite distinctly xxxJ. Whether that structure leads to doorslamming...this I do not believe.
    what exactly are you referring to? i think zbuck is stating that the flattering/unflattering aspect is central in the critique as a whole. that infjs only accept flattery, and they reject unflattery, blaming the other person and doorslamming them as a result.

    so to me, it sounds like the question is whether infjs automatically, always, in any circumstance in which they are not seen as positive, interpret that as if they are being attacked. and that they do this uniquely, based on how their cognition works in general. that doesn't make much sense.

    i know plenty of ep and ip types who jump to feeling attacked rather quickly. i notice that 4, 6, and 8 are all kind of finicky, mercurial, and difficult. they make up like, the dark triad. but 4 is especially unique in terms of withdrawing, which is think is kind of what we're going for here. and you see 4s in ep (3w4), ip (4w3, 4w5, 5w4), ij (4w5, 5w4), ej (3w4). i think 4 is the best to focus on because there would be more of a tendency for a withdrawn type to withdraw, but this would depend on other factors. for instance, say, how 4 expresses itself in conjunction with 3 in 3w4 which presents more of a borderline personality disorder disintegration pattern than with a 5 that has more of a paranoid disintegration pattern.

    i also know that in the past, i've definitely been one of those sensitive people. i've cut ties, altho unlike many others, i've never done so permanently. but i've also gone through huge phases of withdrawal in general, so the line does not seem entirely clear to me. the angry part of me, the resentful part of me, might feel some blame towards them for "making me feel this way," (which is setting a person up not to own their own feelings), but in general there was just a lot of my own issues and repressed emotions that i didn't know how to truly see, truly feel, and truly work with directly.

    but it, "doorslamming," has so much to do with so many things. i've seen it in less snarky but equally nose-up, hypercritical versions with an enfp so/sp friend of mine. an infp 9w1 sx/sp. an enfj 1w2 sx/so. maybe a connection to 1 is part of it, this sense of self-righteousness that accompanies the decision to cut ties in a clearly ego-mediated, self-protective move. for me it had to do with self-shaming that compounded what i was feeling while, at the same time, locating not only the judgment but the feeling itself outside of me, in the other person. and then not recognizing how to cleanse myself of that, so carrying it around and having that feel like i was being suffocated by this person's influence on my world, because i did not know how to own my own feelings and both observe and work with them directly, to really dive into them so i can release the energy they have wound together within me. but if your tendency is to disconnect because if you observe yourself, your self-shaming tendency will likely run amok, you just create a kind of neurotic split where you don't truly know how to be with your own emotions and own them as yours. without doing this, there's no way of using these emotions as information that can help lead you back to a deeper understanding of your own needs.

    finally, a lot of the time the "doorslamming" witch hunt thing comes from people who are obviously hurting and not really sure how to own their own shit either. "doorslamming" as an accusation or evidence of character flaw is completely unproductive and a really obvious lack of empathy, which is generally both a result of and an influence that makes more likely these kinds of relational splits in the first place. accusing someone of being childish or condemning them as "self-destructive" and "selfish" for leaving or needing to take responsibility for their own boundaries and/or personal space isn't a really fair move to make. but as a communication breakdown problem, it's complicated to assess. it's only realistic and productive to acknowledge that in protective mode, the ego can't really do a great job of empathizing and taking on others' realities. that's a fact that transcends type. the conflicts we are discussing are a result of that fact more than a result of the types themselves simply conflicting out of their own inherent nature (and nfp/nfj can be difficult when trust is lost because we don't have a lot of cognitive common ground, even if our values and ego-types are often deeply overlapping).

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    i mean, i love cognitive functions as much as anyone, but to me they are helpful for socio-cognitive things. trying to pin down the nature of shared experience, what we can observe, the modality of information for each other, etc. concpetualizing the structure of information. and as information about ourselves i do think it has a predictive quality for who we are and how we work, sure, especially in terms of systems and concrete tasks in career and whatnot.

    but ultimately, in relational conflict, a more psychosocial, psychoanalytic, ego focus is more helpful to understand personal differences that result in different needs and the patterns that emerge that reciprocally reinforce and result from those needs. especially in terms of how we interpret them. these are more helpful in terms of the "who someone is" humanistically, what their relationship with themselves is likely to be like.

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