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  1. #1361
    Member March's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I liked your post. This is of interest because from my perspective, as an Fi dom, you ignoring that emotion is the same as not taking care of your emotional health. I sense your inner emotional construct and will realize you are ignoring it. Now granted, to you it's not pressing and indeed, 80% of it is transient and not of huge import. But when you ignore it, I can sense you're not tending to it and it feels like you have a crying baby in there that you're not paying attention to. (cred to Seymour for the crying baby analogy!)

    So, just sharing that so you can see it from my vantage point too. That's the kind of "white noise" that I hear all the time. Like a radio always playing.
    I can imagine. And it probably triggers the same kinds of debates you get around parenting. Some people are into attachment parenting so they are very responsive to any crying, while others are into teaching babies how to self-soothe so they just focus on the environment being conducive to happy babies. Although, I assume like with babies, if someone were to tell me 'Dude, your internal baby is crying and the sound is distressing to me, can you go do something about that?' (in a non-judgemental way that shows they understand that crying is what babies do a lot of the time), I'd be happy to oblige.

  2. #1362
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    You presented this very diplomatically, but I'm tempted to dare someone to say that to me right about now.
    Rather than pull the trigger on this, can I just give you a hug instead?

    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
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    When people see some things as good,
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    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  3. #1363
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    @Southern Cross, thank you for you patience and thoughtfulness in these discussions. I appreciate reading your posts.

    You presented this very diplomatically, but I'm tempted to dare someone to say that to me right about now.
    Off topic - but you don't do the above (what was presented in Z Buck's quote.) I mean, I'll happily pull any trigger anyone wants me to in this thread but I can't help you on this one.

    To suggest this isn't somewhat common though with regards to NFJs...this I'm not ready to sign off on. And I don't necessarily think it has anything to do with flattery.
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  4. #1364
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Just got in from grocery shopping. Mind in the clouds, came up with the following:

    Ji highly manages the internal world in response to powerlessness / insecurity with the outside world.

    Je highly manages the outside world in response to powerlessness / insecurity with the inner world.

    ie "I cannot control what the outside world does but at least I can manage my response to it inside."
    and similarly, "I cannot control what the inside world does but at least I can manage my response to it outside."

    For me personally, it means I massively manage my inner world, process difficult emotions on my own daily, examine how I can better avoid problems in the outside world and try to create systems to address this. For my husband (to use a full Je dom example) it means to massively manage the external world logistically, since this avoids inner world distress. For him, this includes both objects (to a greater extent) and people (to a lesser extent). Switch that for Fe.

    If my inner world is tidy, the external world can be messy and it doesn't affect me much. For him, if the external world is tidy the inner world doesn't affect him much. But, when you mess with my outer world in a way I didn't predict, it rattles the inner world and gives me work to do. For him, when the outer world gets messed with, he just pushes and shoves the outer world back. I retreat from the outer realm, but he gives it attitude. But mess with his inner space ... make him doubt his sense of self, it really messes with him. (His last job, those EI people spouting the EI crap, they really manipulated his self-concept. It's not that he can't benefit from the soft skills at times, but boy. Anyway, story for another day.)

    Similarly, you mess with my inner space, I will push back hard and I will slap the internal world around. Mostly mine and sometimes yours too.

    And here we are. This is so distressing to INFJs because it messes with the inner realm. Perhaps you feel powerless to push back in there. The work one would do in there is just so messy in your inner space that it's especially not fair to ask you to do it in this venue. And to stop me from poking it, you give me back some boundaries to say, "Hey, I'm not comfortable" and basically put me in a tier where I can have less capability to affect that inner space.

    When an INFP is faced with an inner space turmoil, it's not easy either. Heck, it's like torture. But the work is known to us and we are familiar with having to manage that space all the time. The same corollary holds true for the opposite no doubt. Like March said, if she goes and has a snack, a cup of tea, often times the attention to the outer has managed the inner. Magic!

    I think overall, INFP's have more affect and control over the outer world than they realize, and INFJ's have more affect and control over the inner world than they realize. In some key way our approach to managing these areas is in utter opposition and this is the cause of our clash. But I can't articulate the feeling of it in words. Both our types can tend to feel more powerless than we are, and tend to throw up our hands in a powerless way. I want to say, you have affect there, you are not powerless inside. Just like I can stand up and push the outer world around, you can do the same inside too. You do not have to blame the vectors who affect the inner world for disturbing it. Just like I do not have to blame the outer vectors for messing with me.

    Take my example above. I was angry at having my inner space disturbed by someone basically suggesting if I did not do what they wanted, I would be deemed an inconsiderate person. SO WHAT, eh? That emotion is not about her, it's about me. Just like, if you don't want your world disturbed by me saying I see something that's more hidden to you, that emotion is not about me. It's about you.

    There's a universality to this that's very elegant.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  5. #1365

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Indeed. By not making an effort to look for the cause, you are affecting my internal landscape with your emotions. You are making the proverbial "white noise" for me and I cannot focus on much else when I sense heavy, strong emotions inside you that are brushed off, patently avoided or denied. All that's necessary is to say, "Yes, I feel something, not sure what" but to have it denied is just difficult since you're sending out all these signals that interfere with the smooth functioning of my feeling-radar.
    What causes you to be irritated with other people's strong emotions? What feelings do they invoke in you? Fear, anger etc.? Is there a relation there with childhood and parenting style?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    It does seem to me that Fe types get very good though at bouncing blame all around to everyone else, to varying degrees of course.
    No more Mr.Nice Guy

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    And how do you discern intent? Can you flesh that out for me?
    Experience based on past incidents where I have been tricked/screwed up over, which have accumulated into Ni patterns over time...When a similar pattern is recognized, my inside voice tells me that something is off...I usually question to other side and if I sense that he/she is being evasive in answering and clarifying his/her intent I take that as a sign of lack of goodwill/reciprocity...

    It also depends on the rapport of the individual and the context that the criticism/blame is voiced out...There's some previous discussion on this from page 108 on...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    As for the rest ... I find it interesting that you feel INFP's are less likely to be hurt. We are frequently injured in an emotionally broken world that doesn't pay much attention to emotional health. We learn that the world really doesn't value emotions like we do from a very young age and we naturally turn to the internal processing of them since we are wired that way. Me personally, I historically have exuded very little negative emotion so that it cannot be used in any way against me or to influence other people into action. I dislike emotions being used as tools.
    I thought they can wield/control their emotions much better than others therefore would be less susceptible to other people's emotional surges/outbursts...I may have been mistaken...perhaps INFPs are hurt more by lack of (any kind of) emotional feedback so in such cases they try invoking emotions in others? I don't really know...

    OTOH, why the need to keep emotions (safe?) inside...? Have externally expressed emotions been used against you (to humiliate you etc.) in the past? Does that have something to do with your childhood and your parenting?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    You just don't see the sanitation happening. I've personally been very hurt on this forum, but you'd never know that from my posts. In fact, when you assumed that I must not have encountered difficult people in my life (from an earlier transaction between us) that was fairly insulting too actually. Not hurtful, just rather invalidating to make that assumption.
    Because I am expecting empathy but cannot find any from a person who claims to have encountered difficult people in her life...From my perspective, you do not recognize that INFJs here may also have been victimized/traumatized in the past...You are inclined to see them as tyrants...

    I can understand you are trying to sanitize your comments...the only suggestion I can make is to give us some Si material, the story that has caused you this hurt...I cannot validate/soothe you because I don't know what exactly happened to you...It feels to me that you are expecting from INFJs some kind of confession of being bad so that you can feel good about yourself...Why you tied you feeling being good to INFJs' being bad, that I cannot comprehend...Both can be bad or good, they do not depend on each other...they are not related...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    We often leave Fi judgements as balls in the air until real-life points us in-the-moment to adapt. We have to trust that our Ne will help us adapt.
    What can INFJs here to do to make themselves more comprehensible to a Fi user? What can we do to expedite the process? What kind of interaction/reasoning style do Fi users respond better to? Some tools to employ other then analogies?

  6. #1366
    A snowstorm is coming... Amargith's Avatar
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    Very interesting. So how do Pe and Pi factor in? Not to mention their rank order in preference, for that matter...
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  7. #1367
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Very interesting. So how do Pe and Pi factor in? Not to mention their rank order in preference, for that matter...
    Yes, as @fia said, type to type it's potentially more connected. The right-angled nature of Ji dom and Je aux makes it harder to articulate. I can feel it, can't put it into words yet. Take a whack at it if something comes to mind.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  8. #1368
    Senior Member Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    To suggest this isn't somewhat common though with regards to NFJs...this I'm not ready to sign off on. And I don't necessarily think it has anything to do with flattery.
    But I think the contention this is raising sorta revolves around the sudden emphasis of this "flattery" element.

    ***

    I'm going to go ahead and admit that I think that anyone who neee-e-e-eeds this particular definition of “doorslam” (with the added qualifier that it’s why ‘most’ INFJs back away) to be declared true in this thread has got issues of their own. If it’s simply an observation without any emotional investment in it being true, then why would there be this urgency for others to agree? Why wouldn't hearing “yeah, sometimes it happens” be enough (which has been said, repeatedly)? I think the emotional investment in needing to establish something stronger than “yeah, sometimes it happens” is that people who regularly repel INFJs would get to believe there’s nothing overbearing or unpleasant about themselves. I think that having a whole group of people systematically run away from you is sorta like the universe providing you with unsolicited nohari results, and I really can’t shake the feeling that certain individuals who routinely drive INFJs away want to “prove” there’s something wrong with INFJs so that they can dismiss the nohari-ish information the universe is throwing at them.

    So….imagine I started a thread positing that^ idea, asserted that it’s true more often than not and pursued it ad nauseum. Wouldn't it look like I was trying really hard to make something ‘true’? Like I was employing some kind of semantic smoke and mirrors- all in the hopes of distracting myself and everyone else from how bad my own shit stinks?

    All I know is that the urgency in this thread to ‘make’ the assertion ‘true’ has a very foul odor to it.

    I suspect the actual truth is somewhere exactly in between those things, as the universe tends to distribute blame and the projection of flaws equally amongst all ‘types’. Not only are there just as many controlling and manipulative people (probably without even knowing it- who may even see themselves as fairness incarnate) out there who want to convince INFJs they’re backing away because of their own neurosis (and not because there’s anything unacceptable going on at their own end of the interaction ) as there are INFJs who are backing away exclusively because they can’t handle any mirror that doesn't tell them they *are* the fairest in the land - but I’m inclined to think the truth is that there’s usually some combination thereof going on.

    And the thing is- I think that a great many NFJs actually already know the truth is somewhere in the middle- and the reason they back away is because of an utter inability to nail down any certainty one way or the other. Most other types feel *way* more comfortable plowing forward when they catch a whiff of unbalanced power dynamics- I think that INFJs are exceptionally sensitive to it whilst having the least amount confidence that we know we’re Right about the gut feelings we get. I think that probably more doorslams than not are because the INFJ has a gut feeling they can’t get rid of, whilst being totally and completely unsure about whether it really is the other person or if it’s them- and figuring out where and how to draw a boundary starts looking like one of Gödel's theorems. I concede that a lot of that is the idealism- and being unwilling to lay down the law unless we know it’s a special caliber of *fair* that will make the heavens open up to release singing angels and giggling cherubs sliding down sunbeams- but also a lot of it is just total lack of some internal baseline to refer to when angel/cherub fairness can’t be reached.


    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    So I'm wondering if maybe the argument here that should be made is about how to rebalance unequal power in a positive way (ie not doorslamming), not whether or not power needs redistribution.
    I think *a lot* of it comes down to this. I think a lot of INFJs *sense* an unequal power distribution and are so in-the-dark about whether it’s actually there or not that they think “oh fuck it” and just back away. A lot of it is probably the idealism and an unwillingness to be assertive if we can’t nail down an understanding that seems fair enough- but like I said, a lot of it too is just really having no baseline to refer to when idealism can’t be achieved.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  9. #1369
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Sometimes for me, it's feeling like I cannot give the other person what they need that might make me back off. It doesn't mean their needs are unreasonable or illegitimate or invalid. I just don't have the ability to meet them or maybe I could but I would find doing so disruptive in a significant way that I feel would make it hard for me to meet my current obligations.

    If someone has a communication style in which they need a lot of pushback, I find that distressing and I will disengage. If someone is having issues that completely befuddle and distress me, I'm probably going to back away. I'm not a therapist. I'm not an addictions counselor. I dislike high-conflict situations.

    They're not bad or evil or whatever. I'm just not the girl for the job.

    If it makes someone feel better to believe I've got issues, fine. I do have issues. I'm not going to argue with that and they are welcome to have opinions about what those things are. But that doesn't mean I don't get to make choices about with whom I engage.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  10. #1370
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I am interested to hear more about this. Can you expand on it?
    In response to me writing:

    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    As an INFJ in a relationship with an INFP, I find the above quite accurate to my experience with Fi-dom in many ways.

    At first I didn't realize what was going on but by now I can sense it for what it is: It feels like this ongoing quietly (subtly) aggressive push push push push and it can be really disorienting and draining for me. The worst of it is when that push if for me to see my own self, my actions, etc through their eyes - a profound disorientation for me.
    So hmmm, expand on it. I can try. I've been thinking about it a lot lately inside myself. This turned out to be really long.

    I have a concrete example that's been on my mind because it happened recently. This is part of a much broader/larger pattern in our lives and interactions. And I'm much more self-aware now about this stuff than I was at the start of this relationship.

    Context: One ongoing struggle in my life is to really trust the information my perception gives me. Call it Ni-Se perception, with Se in service to Ni. I get a LOT of really really good "underneath consciousness" information about the reality around me via this perception. I have a lot of analytical data showing the accuracy of this perception because over and over it happens that what my Ni-Se picks up shows itself visibly in the external world in a way others can easily see. But that comes later. In me, Ni-Se often picks up what is, at the time, relatively well hidden). Anyway, despite knowing the accuracy of this Ni-Se information, I still struggle to trust it when it happens.

    Ni-Se transmits information to my consciousness in a particular language and the cognitive meaning isn't always obvious to my conscious mind. I often get Ni-Se information in body-gut sense, in general metaphor, in visual images, and occasionally even in sense-based metaphor.

    Example: Last week, my partner came home and my Ni-Se perception told me there was something wrong that she was bringing into the shared space. I didn't know that at the time, I just had perception with no analytical consciousness of what it meant. I responded physically, according to her - apparently I had a "look on my face" - that's what she told me.

    My own internal experience of the situation was a faint feel of off-ness when she came through the door and I was in the other room, then a moderately strong feeling of repulsion from a smell on her clothing when she came in. In itself, the smell wasn't so bad, but I was repelled. Later, I realized that this was a sense-metaphor: "Something doesn't smell right here." At the time, I was just receiving this information.

    Her response to whatever was going on was to say that there was something wrong in the dynamic between us. If we were going to discuss it, she wanted us both to discuss what was wrong in our lives and/or inner selves that could be contributing to what she said was a mutual dynamic. She then focused, as she very often does, on what might be wrong in/with me that was creating this. I had to push back to get her to talk about what was going on with her (and there was a very obvious source of off-ness in her experience that day but she wanted me to focus on what was supposedly wrong in/with me because in her framework, her this was a mutual dynamic). The whole discussion and situation felt increasingly more and more unpleasant and painfully off to me.

    In this discussion, she told me that the minute she saw the "look on my face" she knew things were bad between us. I scanned my internal landscape and tried to pinpoint what that look may have been about. I homed in on the smell. That wasn't the source, but it is a clear clue to my perception. I mentioned the smell.

    She just brushed it aside. She said that wasn't relevant (paraphrasing here). She said she already knew what that look on my face was about and it wasn't a smell or whatever I was trying to talk about. When I said that it felt to me like she was dismissing something important for me, she said that whatever I might be feeling inside, I can't see my own face and I don't know what I was projecting with my expression.

    She brought this situation up again the other day, the "look on my face" in that interaction and her supposed correct knowledge of what it was really about (not what it was really about for me). She brought this up as part of a communication to me that I should adjust my perception and response in an upcoming situation that she thought might invoke the same response from me.

    Again I protested that she was dismissing what had actually been going on. And again, this time even more strongly, she said that I don't see my own face and don't know what I project because I can't see it.

    She presented her experience of the look on my face as if she can directly see an objective truth that I can't see. But that's not accurate. She interprets what she sees on my face through her filters. This is just how her info-processing system works, she has Fi-Si filters. We've discussed it. But in interactions like this, the subjective nature of her interpretation goes invisible in the discussion and she presents her subjective assessments and conclusions as if she has direct access to some objective truth that I (in this case literally) cannot see.

    -----------------------------------

    In the past (and still a part of me does this), I would have initially accepted her analysis. In this case, based on the true fact that I certainly cannot see my own face in times like this. I would have assumed she was onto something that I was unaware of, and looked critically at myself, asking myself what I project into the world and looking to her for more "information" about what this is so I could be more "aware" of what I do.

    But I now know enough about this pattern that I don't all the way go there anymore. It's a big struggle for me, though.

    She has a practice of stating her assessments and conclusions with a great deal of force and confidence. Push push push. Even when she's incorrectly "connecting the dots" (her phrase) based on Fi-Si or Fi-Si-Te, even when she's wrong, she still does this. We've actually talked about it. At the time, she believes she's correct, believes it wholeheartedly at the time, and if she later learns she was incorrect, she just pivots to that as if nothing happened. And continues forcefully pushing her assessments and perceptions as correct the next time around.

    She has consistently misunderstood me. We've talked about that as well. She says she has a database of experiences (Si) that tells her how people act and what things mean when people say or do them. It's based on an accumulation of past experiences in her life. It's a more efficient way of understanding reality than the perception-heavy, multi-layered, information and context-rich approach I take to understanding any situation.

    When she's correct, she can be stunningly correct. She can conclude accurate facts based on what I see as minimal information. But she can also jump to stunningly incorrect assessments and conclusions. And she does that a lot with me. This has been obvious from the start. I don't quite fit into the Si map from the rest of her life. And she takes close to forever to actually incorporate each little tiny piece of how I don't fit her existing database of meaning,, and adjust her understanding accordingly. And I'm beginning to see that some of her Si map about me specifically is distorted as well, and so begins to build on itself in that distortion.

    In the meantime, she pushes her assessments and conclusions - including assessments and conclusions about me, about what I am doing etc - as truth even when she's wrong. And when I object, she calls on Te-inf to find some plausible argument to support what she says is happening.

    -----------------------------------

    This may actually connect to another part of your post in a discussion with someone else.

    It does seem to me that Fe types get very good though at bouncing blame all around to everyone else, to varying degrees of course.
    I have a particular pattern with this that may illuminate somehow. I think it's specific to Ni-Fe-Ti in me. Think of it as a series of steps or phases in my response:

    1. When something feels "off" and there is a clash between my Ni perceptual landscape (or Ni-Se perception) and the external material Fe legitimizes in my consciousness, my first move is to take in the external Fe material, assume it's correct, and hold myself responsible for whatever is not right. This phase can last hours, days, weeks, months, even years.

    2. As I hold this external material deeply inside myself over time, it often begins to feel really bad - feel in the sense of gut-level, visceral, sense-perception kind of "feel" (not emotion.)

    3. Things that feel this way do so because they de-center me from Ni and Ni-Se perception - my own organic perceptual field.

    4. In response to the visceral feel (again, not emotion, but rather sense-perception feel) that develops as I hold the Fe-legitimized material inside myself, Ti activates. Ti begins to deconstruct the external material using my Ni perceptual field as a reference point. It's a painstaking process requiring a LOT of data and fine-grained analysis.

    At stage 4, you might well see me "bouncing blame all around to everyone else." This is a corrective, a balance, to what I have already done, which is take on way too much responsibility for everything given the Fe dynamic.

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