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  1. #1351
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    "They don't like presumptions to be made about them, especially if they're wrong not properly justified in terms of cause and effect (Ti)." perhaps? Cause that makes those presumptions seem coming from out of nowhere or for some ulterior motive?
    I see. That is an interesting distinction. I will think more on that...


    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor
    Quote Originally Posted by March View Post
    It is interesting to read INFJ analysis on the article. You both recognise the same factors and reach very similar conclusions as I do (actually, I'm surprised at the degree with which we agree) but those conclusions are achieved in a slightly different angle. If we discussed this in a different manner I could easily see us debating over it as if we had totally opposing views. By that I mean, I could easily see us bickering over the mode of analysis (and the wrong or right way to think about it) while missing the fact that we basically agree. Do you get what I mean? I just wonder if it's better for us to talk in terms of our holistic, resulting views on things, rather than arguing over which is the best path to get there. I mean it is still interesting to discuss those pathways, but I think we have to resist the urge to 'correct' one another and instruct each other on the only 'right' path to take.

    I do have so slight variations on your views. I also have this urge to nitpick over some minor things you guys said, but in fact don't matter that much. I doubt it would be of value to bring them up and us debate back and forth over it. It would be arguing over approach rather than result. Anyway, just a thought...

    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    Also interesting. I wonder if INFJs just need more emotional structure in general - commitment being just a small part of that. By that I mean that they need emotional stability, and perhaps even, emotional predictability (ie. emotions conform more to expected outcomes - to cause and effect). And they need to surround themselves with people that can provide them that, or adapt to that need. Would you say this is accurate?

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by March View Post
    Based on what you guys (and @fia) are saying, it sounds like emotions are in lot more flux with you guys. You seem to get more swept up in them - in the sense that you get caught in the middle of a feeling and can't see the edges of it, to see it in it's entirety and figure out what it is. Is that what it feels like?

    March, for me the meaning is everything. It's not always deep and explored in depth. Like what I mentioned earlier, to NFPs emotions are just signs; just facts that point to something. Perhaps it's partly down to the fact that our emotional states are less in flux internally; we can feel the undercurrent or see the through line and for that reason can gain more sense of meaning out of them.
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    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  2. #1352
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    This is a good insight, but it is important to also suggest that the same can be true of the INFP awareness of others' emotional states. In this way there can be interactions between the INFP and INFJ in which no one is really that aware of what is going on inside the INFJ and everyone is focused on what is going on inside the INFP. I have a lot of admiration for the INFP, but I have seen very often a selective empathy in which there is an intensity of awareness and concern in certain contexts and obliviousness in others. If you look even at the Fi/Fe debate threads they focus much more on what's wrong with INFJs and how that makes INFPs feel and how it aligns with their inner constructs. It takes conscious effort to push back and suggest that the INFP also has flaws and limitations on their end of the interaction.
    I can appreciate that. I wish there was more discussion about INFP flaws, but the way the conversation flows, it keeps coming back to INFJ flaws. I have noted this and been uneasy about it. I never really know what's the cause of it. I'm not sure if the INFPs just spend too much time projecting ideas outward, whether we're more inclined to blame, or if the way INFJs talk about things draws INFPs into discussing them rather than themselves. It upsets me to think that it ends up so one sided, and that it might be the INFPs fault. I will say, like I mentioned earlier about Ne surfing ideas, we just go where the inspiration takes us and we can lose sight of what that chosen direction is communicating to others. The thing is, when there have been threads where INFJs criticised INFPs, I personally experienced less 'inspiration'. It's not that I can't take criticism, it's just that it didn't spark ideas in the same way. It wasn't as interesting and mentally productive, and I have no idea why. Does that make sense?

    Both Ti/Fi are more organized internally than Ni or Si, and Ti/Fi have a tendency to dismiss external information that doesn't conform to their well built inner constructs of reality. There is a stronger inner decisiveness, conclusiveness about the nature of self and other. Both types tend to see the Si/Ni-dom as decisive and dismissive, but that is at times the result of projection and assumption because it is difficult for a strong Ti/Fi-dom to imagine an internal state which is in flux. I've lived my entire life with either Fi or Ti-doms and this is my impression, but there are certainly exceptions, and I'm willing to consider that I am mistaken. I've had to work through tightly formed assumptions with my living partners about me and it takes a lot of energy and time to break through their certitude about my inner motivations. I still don't think I *know* my mother, my sister, my husband because I experience reality in a state of deep flux.
    Yes, I think this is accurate.

    Relating back to the last few posts and what @Amargith said, would you say this is correct:

    INFPs - Internally has more consistency, stability and clarity. Externally, more comfortable with flux.
    INFJs - Internally more in flux. Externally more comfortable with clarity, consistency and stability.

    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    This is an excellent post, and I admire people who can be consistently understanding and diplomatic. There is quite a bit of Fi in society including STJs and SFPs which are very prevalent. My ability to negotiate even loving relationships is compromised by Fi and Ti-doms who meant well, but were deeply dismissive of me, and it was actually an INFP who recently pushed me passed the edge of my sanity through dismissal and letting all the shit fall to me. PeaceBaby made a good point about the external emotional currency that can be associated with Fe, but in my own family there was an inner currency based on need. My Fi-dom mother was very protective and tried to compensate for the external harm done to her children by balancing their power and needs within the home. When my sister had school phobia and took homeschooling, I was attending the public school, but I was required to do house chores and she was not because of her emotional stress. It was also a way to give her more power in the context of the home.

    Every Fi/Ti-dom I've lived with has articulated and presented personal needs far stronger than I can, and so my entire framework gets lost in them. They have complete power, complete say over their needs and mine, over their motivations and mine, and I'm rather burnt out. I've seen the same thing happen to ISFJs and possibly even moreso because they cannot create internal escapes like a Ni-dom can. I adore each Fi/Ti-dom, but I've lived my life quite voiceless among them, even though they are kind and compassionate. There is just an assumption of dismissal that they can't see because of a tendency towards projection. Certainly this isn't always the case and it occurs moreso when there is emotional pain and scars inside of them.

    I guess what I am saying is that what you say is probably the more accurate in the broader sense, but I decided to push back a bit because of experience. Even if my statement only counts for .0001% of the global truth, I still want to put it out there for consideration.

    Society accommodates the Fe and Te dom, and not the Ni dom so much at all. I think these threads are not being constructed correctly at all. It would make more sense to have discussions between INFP and ENFJs in a comparative manner and also between INFJs and ENFPs because those are the ones that form the parallels.
    This is such a fascinating perspective. I never thought of it as having power over others, until recently. I've noticed things my (ISFJ) Mum has said about me and felt kinda uneasy about it. They weren't criticisms, actually they were compliments, but I felt a little ashamed about it. It made me feel aware of how dictatorial my Judgement can inadvertently be. I'm not even sure what to do about it - how to fix that.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  3. #1353
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Based on what you guys (and @fia) are saying, it sounds like emotions are in lot more flux with you guys. You seem to get more swept up in them - in the sense that you get caught in the middle of a feeling and can't see the edges of it, to see it in it's entirety and figure out what it is. Is that what it feels like?
    I see emotions as highly transient. I consider them important information. But they have to be analyzed before I know how much weight to give them and where their proper place is.

    I also consider unprocessed emotions highly private. I would no sooner whip them out than I would go to the grocery store bare-chested. Only one person gets to see the inner workings.

    Maybe that means I won't have any other close and healthy relationships, I don't know. Apparently it's a stalemate. You can't get the relationship without the vulnerability and I'm not comfortable with the vulnerability without the relationship. I'm probably lucky to have the one.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
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  4. #1354
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    Every Fi/Ti-dom I've lived with has articulated and presented personal needs far stronger than I can, and so my ... framework gets lost in them. They have ... power, ... say over their needs and mine, over their motivations and mine, and I'm rather burnt out.... I adore each Fi/Ti-dom, but I've lived my life quite voiceless among them, even though they are kind and compassionate. There is just an assumption of dismissal that they can't see because of a tendency towards projection. Certainly this isn't always the case and it occurs moreso when there is emotional pain and scars inside of them.
    As an INFJ in a relationship with an INFP, I find the above quite accurate to my experience with Fi-dom in many ways.

    At first I didn't realize what was going on but by now I can sense it for what it is: It feels like this ongoing quietly (subtly) aggressive push push push push and it can be really disorienting and draining for me. The worst of it is when that push if for me to see my own self, my actions, etc through their eyes - a profound disorientation for me.

  5. #1355
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Yes, I agree with that. So Ni forms a (whole, complete) Perception and then refines from there, much like Fi does with Judgements?

    Yeah, but I guess there can be a laziness to all Extroverted functions. For the Introverted functions, it can inadvertently come across like, "here's a bunch of stuff that randomly occurred to me. Let me dump this on you and you go away and figure it all out". Then sometimes immediately afterwards there's a 'test' where they check if you did figure it out, and god help you if you didn't.

    Just to nitpick in return, I disagree that Pe is oblivious to the rest of the iceberg (the part below the water) - it's just that we can estimate it entirely so easily that we don't consider it a big deal. It is as light a 5 lbs to us; we just don't know it's so much heavier to other people. I suppose it's more like a rabbit hole to Pi: a black hole going down and down, and who knows how deep or where it could lead to.

    I’m going to guess something similar happened with the analogy yeghor gave (or my post that you linked)- it was like 5 lbs of question/judgment that expanded into 50 (yeghor) or 500 (me) lbs of question/judgment (the question itself, and then the consequent questions it raised- about why it seemed ‘off’/leading)? And life is infinitely easier around people who know how to shave off that extra weight and post questions in such a way that aren’t leading, so you can focus on the actual question without a bunch of 'white noise' interfering?
    I think that's a valid observation, yes. So you're saying that yeghor limited the scope in order to prevent the interference of other implications or external factors - lightening the "weight" for me so I might answer the question more easily? See to Pe that's much like tying a ribbon around the top of an iceberg and saying that this is all that matters, when there's the rest of the iceberg is still there and is off limits to me. To me, the top part can't float without the bottom part, and I need to know how or why it floats to talk about the top part.

    I get what you're saying about why Ni want's to limit the parameters. If you want to talk about one part of the iceberg, that's fine. It's not like I'm against that, it's just hard to wrap my head around it. I suppose, like you say, Ni needs to find a way to limit the scope without being an iceberg-denier, so to speak , and I need to find a way to Ne the rest of the iceberg on my own (ie. perceive it in it's entirety) without smashing down the boundaries of the smaller scope. I must say, analogies and metaphors (despite my complaints about yeghor's ) help me in general. They can set the parameters while giving me chance to mentally fill in the full picture.

    So what things do other people do help you to keep the scope small and easy to manage? What things make discussions work well for you?

    Oh, good. Yes, I need INFJ stuff drummed into me a bit before it clicks too.

    I keep hearing insinuation (whether it’s still there or not) that INFJs only “think” they’re feeling distressed because someone else is overbearing, but the “truth” (the “INFJ blindspot”) is that we simply don’t like information that isn’t flattering and we tell ourselves some story (e.g: about how the other person is “overbearing”) so that we can dismiss the information.
    I think that what most people are saying (well, it's what I'm saying), is that it can be both. I personally don't mean to dismiss the feelings of the INFJs involved or to claim their experience of mistreatment isn't real or valid.

    I never thought of it as labels - that's interesting.

    Hmm. I think what I'm getting at is that INFJs seem to estimate their emotions more Perceptually rather than through the use of Judgement. They may sense something's off, but if someone else addresses the apparent emotion, and the INFJ can't see the cause and effect link, they doubt it and brush it off (or redirect it, claiming it as the a result of something else). It might not be, say, denying that you're angry when you are, it might be that you say, "I'm not angry, I'm just stressed" - or something along those lines. Anyway, considering what we just discussed above I probably shouldn't go into this. This idea is not yet fully formed.

    Actually, I'm not bothered by people saying they don't know what they feel, for the most part. It only bugs me if that emotion is becoming a problem and we're not allowed to talk about it.

    Outright denials (or the perception of denial) do really get to me - I know they shouldn't, but they do. I should accept as you do, that it's just that they need time, but the incongruence really bothers me. It's like saying the sky is green and I look up and see it's clearly not - so either you're delusional, or you're brushing me off and think I'm a big enough idiot to believe you. I suppose this is the equivalent of the INFJ annoyance with INFPs seeming to "play stupid" when it comes to intentions.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  6. #1356
    Senior Member Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    So you're saying that yeghor limited the scope in order to prevent the interference of other implications or external factors - lightening the "weight" for me so I might answer the question more easily?
    I can't speak for him, but if it were me- it isn't about intentionally limiting the scope, in fact I was trying to make the point that it's really surprising to me that it comes across as putting some limit on the scope at all.

    It's sorta like, if I asked someone if they wanted to go grab some dinner, and said, "Do you want to go to Chipotle? Or Noodles & Co?" By asking that, it isn't my intention to imply "AND THOSE ARE THE ONLY TWO ACCEPTABLE ANSWERS!!" It's just that those are two places that come to mind. When I read yeghor's analogy- or if I give one like that myself- it's just that those are the options that come to mind.....it really does surprise me to hear some subtext is added, urging that it's not available to come up with something else. It seems obvious to me that if someone comes up with yet another (and better) option- of course it's available to throw it in the pot.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post

    INFJs are relatively more inclined to internalize blame...Fe is always scanning the environment to identify whether people are (dis)pleased with us...It's the gateway to our ego...Any externally generated blame can get through that route and seep into our ego...When that happens we feel that we've been "bad (children?)" accompanied by negative feelings like sadness and pain, which compel us to adjust/modify our ego in line with the issue that caused the blame so that the pain and guilt can subside...

    To prevent that gateway being abused, INFJs, in time, start installing filters/checkpoints on the gate so that only sincere/honest/productive expressions of blame/criticism are allowed inside the ego and are taken into consideration...That's where the detection of good and ill intent comes into play...That's why "intent" plays a critical role for the INFJ when interacting with other people and Ni-Ti is always checking "intent" in the background and sets off alarms when inconsistencies are detected (shutting the gateway)...

    Therefore, building on your analogy:

    INFJs - Less rigid (weak) ego boundaries hence a more malleable ego/sense of self...More susceptible to being hurt by external emotional fluctuations hence more rigid exterior structures/gateways/armor...From outside appears as authoritarian/unyielding...as well as less adaptable

    INFP - More rigid (strong) ego boundaries hence a less malleable ego/sense of self...Less susceptible to being hurt by external emotional fluctuations hence less rigid exterior structures/gateways/armor...From outside appears as whimsical/capricous/flighty...as well as more adaptable

    The problem here is that as the intimacy of the relationship increases, INFJs start maintaining fewer filters on the gate (All-in attitude), lowering their defenses, which makes them (their ego) more vulnerable to emotional surges from the partner...With each surge INFJs try to adapt (bend over) but if the surges become too frequent or too long they start burning/frying the core/ego, taking it out of service...at which time INFJs close the Fe gate completely (doorslam = All out) so that the ego can heal...At that point, INFJs feel that no matter what they do they cannot please the partner enough to make the surges stop, which to them implies that they are not suitable for each other...

    So INFPs' (or Fi-doms'/auxes') way of making themselves more vulnerable may be, based on these descriptions, letting more criticism by the partner seep into their ego (making their ego more malleable for the partner) and trying to consciously regulate the surges...

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross
    This will not be a positive analogy but, sometimes (when the white noise is too strong) it feels to me like I have been left to picking up the edible pieces out of a vomit...Then, despite the smell and yuckiness, I manage to bring together the, let's say 4, pieces I picked up and make sense of them and show them to the other party to ask them "is this the core of the issue?"..."is this what you were trying to say?"...then, things get more complicated if more vomit comes along in response...A better response could instead be telling me which one of the pieces I picked up are correct and then showing me other pieces that I missed, instead of adding more vomit to the pile...

    Your and others' posts do not give the feeling of vomit by the way...they are coming in much more edible forms

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross
    To me, it feels like INFP has this fuzzy Fi framework and is trying to scan the entire framework so that INFP can get a focus on and pinpoint where the answer to the issue at hand lies in the framework...

    On the other hand, I already have some certain definite parameters of the issue decided in my mind that I believe would serve as cornerstones for the INFP (or any other party) so that the INFP can pin them on his/her Fi-framework and just concentrate on the area lying inbetween rather than making an entire (lengthy) scan of the framework...

    So I have been basically limiting the area to be focused (hence shortening evaluation duration) but, OTOH, allowing the INFP to come to his/her own conclusions inside that limited area...This I guess may make INFP (or Fi-dom/aux) uneasy and may seem as I am forcing them to leave certain parts of the framework out of evaluation so may feel to them as being forced/channeled towards a certain conclusion...

    Ne, OTOH, may voice out several possibilities and Ni would shoot them down leaving the only viable option (from Ni perspective) alive...This may feel as invalidation to Ne...

    I do not know what it takes for INFPs to reduce many possibilities/options in their mind down to a single conclusion...how or do you zoom into the relevant part of the framework to arrive at a single conclusion/decision to your satisfaction regarding any given issue? Back and forth Ne banter?

  8. #1358
    Member March's Avatar
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    @Southern Kross

    I wouldn't say that I get swept up in emotions. On most days, I'd be surprised if my emotions become more intense than a 4 on a 10-point scale. If they do, that's usually because I go seek them out. It's just that probing them to find out the nuances is a lot of work and I already have so much to do that seems more urgent and important.

    It's true that I don't easily see the 'edges' of my emotions, but not in a 'Oh noez! This'll NEVER get better!' way.

    Say I pick up traces of sadness and anxiety, which happens to me often. Is that just low blood sugar? And did that arise from eating too little/the wrong stuff/too late/too much/too early? From not enough physical activity, or too much, or the wrong kind? Too little socializing? Too much? The wrong kind? Or is there something wrong in my job? Did I get triggered by that song on the radio? And did it trigger a memory or a bit of guilt that I forgot to send friend X a birthday card? Or did the fleeting reminder of needing to send friend X a birthday card remind me of my other friend who died? Which in turn triggered thoughts of people I haven't heard from in a while? Did my husband shrug me off this morning? Or did I still feel lonely from that scene in last night's movie and was his goodbye perfectly fine in general but just a little too perfunctory for me today? Am I procrastinating on something scary?

    Knowing myself, it's usually a combination of at least six of those, and four others I didn't just think of. And in 99% of cases, the emotion will go away by itself or if I do some useful things like eating, exercising, and getting back to work.

    Meaning is everything for me too, I'm just not a feelomancer. Give me tea leaves and flights of geese any day. (Or rather: actions and words and little flashes of insight.)

    I also don't particularly need emotional stability and predictability. Being with someone who IS emotionally stable and predictable and above a certain level of expressiveness is easier, granted. But I can deal with instability and unpredictability just fine as long as there's good emotional hygiene and a certain level of emotional responsiveness.

    Example of emotional hygiene: My IFP friend and IFP mother are both emotionally not on a very even keel (although my also-IFP mother-in-law IS). Their pain is right below the surface, and it's easy to trigger even in innocent conversations about vegetables. When my friend tears up, though, I know that she'll deal with the feeling herself. She'll let me know if there's anything she needs or even wants from me, but it's her feeling and her responsibility. This makes it easy for me to want to help her and to help her in a useful way. When my mother's emotions get triggered, though, she goes: "I I am experiencing a FEELING. Now what are you going to do about it? Huh? HUH?" The former is fine with me, the latter is really hard to deal with because it triggers all my weak points. Same kind of accessible emotions, different reactions.

    Example of emotional responsiveness: My ISTJ husband is emotionally on a very even keel and not very expressive. This has the risk of me getting more and more nervous, 'cause I don't get the feedback that comes from expressiveness. But he's very emotionally responsive, so I can come up and get cuddles or a smile or a couple of words about day planning or I can whine to him about something not working out as I want it to and have him respond in a way that shows me he cares. My (no idea about type) ex boss was also very emotionally even-keeled and low-key, but even when I kept my requests to approrpiate work level I could NEVER get as much as a word of reassurance from him. That completely fried my circuits.

  9. #1359
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    As an INFJ in a relationship with an INFP, I find the above quite accurate to my experience with Fi-dom in many ways.

    At first I didn't realize what was going on but by now I can sense it for what it is: It feels like this ongoing quietly (subtly) aggressive push push push push and it can be really disorienting and draining for me. The worst of it is when that push is for me to see my own self, my actions, etc through their eyes - a profound disorientation for me.
    I am interested to hear more about this. Can you expand on it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Just to nitpick in return, I disagree that Pe is oblivious to the rest of the iceberg (the part below the water) - it's just that we can estimate it entirely so easily that we don't consider it a big deal. It is as light a 5 lbs to us; we just don't know it's so much heavier to other people. I suppose it's more like a rabbit hole to Pi: a black hole going down and down, and who knows how deep or where it could lead to.
    Agreed. It was surprising to me that we had to define doorslam to such a degree of minutia. To me, it seemed obvious that the doorslam was an acceptable option in cases of abuse, etc. I'd already mentally trimmed out the extremes.

    I think that's a valid observation, yes. So you're saying that yeghor limited the scope in order to prevent the interference of other implications or external factors - lightening the "weight" for me so I might answer the question more easily? See to Pe that's much like tying a ribbon around the top of an iceberg and saying that this is all that matters, when there's the rest of the iceberg is still there and is off limits to me. To me, the top part can't float without the bottom part, and I need to know how or why it floats to talk about the top part.
    I think that Pi in alliance with Je can be quite directive though. It's a shortcut but it comes at a cost of limiting scope to self-serving purpose. Because it does not wish to discuss the off-limit portion, and most people can sense that portions have been intentionally left out, it can seem disingenuous too. Still, I do understand the why. Fleshing out a fully-realized Fi answer takes forever. I've literally spent hours at times looking at every internal space and trying to account for every single variable contained within.

    I think that what most people are saying (well, it's what I'm saying), is that it can be both. I personally don't mean to dismiss the feelings of the INFJs involved or to claim their experience of mistreatment isn't real or valid.
    Agreed. I see it as a spectrum and it feels unique to me inside each person as I contemplate the energies of all involved.

    Outright denials (or the perception of denial) do really get to me - I know they shouldn't, but they do. I should accept as you do, that it's just that they need time, but the incongruence really bothers me. It's like saying the sky is green and I look up and see it's clearly not - so either you're delusional, or you're brushing me off and think I'm a big enough idiot to believe you. I suppose this is the equivalent of the INFJ annoyance with INFPs seeming to "play stupid" when it comes to intentions.
    Indeed. By not making an effort to look for the cause, you are affecting my internal landscape with your emotions. You are making the proverbial "white noise" for me and I cannot focus on much else when I sense heavy, strong emotions inside you that are brushed off, patently avoided or denied. All that's necessary is to say, "Yes, I feel something, not sure what" but to have it denied is just difficult since you're sending out all these signals that interfere with the smooth functioning of my feeling-radar.

    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    INFJs are relatively more inclined to internalize blame...Fe is always scanning the environment to identify whether people are (dis)pleased with us...It's the gateway to our ego...Any externally generated blame can get through that route and seep into our ego...
    It does seem to me that Fe types get very good though at bouncing blame all around to everyone else, to varying degrees of course.

    To prevent that gateway being abused, INFJs, in time, start installing filters/checkpoints on the gate so that only sincere/honest/productive expressions of blame/criticism are allowed inside the ego and are taken into consideration...That's where the detection of good and ill intent comes into play...That's why "intent" plays a critical role for the INFJ when interacting with other people and Ni-Ti is always checking "intent" in the background and sets off alarms when inconsistencies are detected (shutting the gateway)...
    And how do you discern intent? Can you flesh that out for me?


    As for the rest ... I find it interesting that you feel INFP's are less likely to be hurt. We are frequently injured in an emotionally broken world that doesn't pay much attention to emotional health. We learn that the world really doesn't value emotions like we do from a very young age and we naturally turn to the internal processing of them since we are wired that way. Me personally, I historically have exuded very little negative emotion so that it cannot be used in any way against me or to influence other people into action. I dislike emotions being used as tools.

    At the moment though, I feel annoyed discussing things with INFJ's these days. I know some of that impatience leaks through and it makes it harder for you to hear me. But I want to be more true to how I am wired on the forum, so I don't sanitize everything. Oh, I sanitize most of it out. But I want to be heard at least a little bit from that emotional truth perspective.

    You just don't see the sanitation happening. I've personally been very hurt on this forum, but you'd never know that from my posts. In fact, when you assumed that I must not have encountered difficult people in my life (from an earlier transaction between us) that was fairly insulting too actually. Not hurtful, just rather invalidating to make that assumption.

    So I have been basically limiting the area to be focused (hence shortening evaluation duration) but, OTOH, allowing the INFP to come to his/her own conclusions inside that limited area...This I guess may make INFP (or Fi-dom/aux) uneasy and may seem as I am forcing them to leave certain parts of the framework out of evaluation so may feel to them as being forced/channeled towards a certain conclusion...
    You limit the scope to focus on it in an Ni - Fe way. To focus on it in a healthy Fi - Ne way, I need to see the scope as widely as possible.

    Ne, OTOH, may voice out several possibilities and Ni would shoot them down leaving the only viable option (from Ni perspective) alive...This may feel as invalidation to Ne...
    Well, I think it's more about Fi doing what it needs to do more than anything. When you leave stuff off-limits, it's like asking me to drive the car with one eye closed. You are limiting my perceptive abilities.

    I do not know what it takes for INFPs to reduce many possibilities/options in their mind down to a single conclusion...how or do you zoom into the relevant part of the framework to arrive at a single conclusion/decision to your satisfaction regarding any given issue? Back and forth Ne banter?
    We often leave Fi judgements as balls in the air until real-life points us in-the-moment to adapt. We have to trust that our Ne will help us adapt.

    Quote Originally Posted by March View Post
    Knowing myself, it's usually a combination of at least six of those, and four others I didn't just think of. And in 99% of cases, the emotion will go away by itself or if I do some useful things like eating, exercising, and getting back to work.
    I liked your post. This is of interest because from my perspective, as an Fi dom, you not paying attention to that emotion is the same as not taking care of your emotional health. If I was around you in real-life (and to a limited degree here on the forum) I would sense your inner emotional construct and will realize you are ignoring it. Now granted, to you it's not pressing and indeed, 80% of it is transient and not of huge import. But when you ignore it, I can sense you're not tending to it and it feels like you have a crying baby in there that you're not paying attention to. (cred to Seymour for the crying baby analogy!)

    So, just sharing that so you can see it from my vantage point too. That's the kind of "white noise" that I hear all the time. Like a radio always playing.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  10. #1360
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    @Southern Cross, thank you for you patience and thoughtfulness in these discussions. I appreciate reading your posts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I keep hearing insinuation (whether it’s still there or not) that INFJs only “think” they’re feeling distressed because someone else is overbearing, but the “truth” (the “INFJ blindspot”) is that we simply don’t like information that isn’t flattering and we tell ourselves some story (e.g: about how the other person is “overbearing”) so that we can dismiss the information.
    You presented this very diplomatically, but I'm tempted to dare someone to say that to me right about now.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.

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