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  1. #1341
    Member March's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    Yes. This is absolutely correct for me. I don't always know my emotional states. Strong feelings can be confusing--I can interpret them as being something they're not.
    *nods* Me too. I CAN know and be aware of my emotional states, but it takes me deciding to do so. In real life, I usually just decide to ignore a wave of emotion, throw all potential actions based on those feelings overboard, and decide based on commitments/prospects. Commitment doesn't follow from intimacy for me, it's the other way around - commitment is what keeps me going through the phases that feel less than intimate, commitment keeps me from throwing my heart at someone's feet just because they said the right thing at the right time, and commitment makes sure I do the actions that keep relationships moving forward towards intimacy again, even though I may not 'feel like' them at that time. On any given day, I may feel 12 different things towards, for instance, my husband (neutral, madly in love, horny, pissed off, frustrated, contented, confused, bored, mischievous), and I'd drive myself crazy if I had to lean on those emotions/thought these emotions had to actually MEAN anything.

    I trust my feelings in that they are correct and measured responses to what's going on around and inside me at any given time, but I don't trust that the actions they inspire will get me the things I want and need. I do tend to evaluate and trust aggregates. If on the whole I feel more annoyed with my husband than loved by him, that's worth diving into - is he doing something innocuous that I'm misreading? Am I overfilling my agenda? Is there something more dangerous going on? But otherwise I usually pay more attention to other people's feelings/emotional states than my own.

  2. #1342
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Cross
    But to be perfectly frank, I feel like that INFJs don't know their own emotional states and inclinations as well as they think they do - they can be like Thinkers in this regard. They're such experts in human behaviour but their emotional drives seem rather unconscious for them. It can be hard to get around this because they can have trouble accepting things that exist outside the realm of what they can perceive.
    This is a good insight, but it is important to also suggest that the same can be true of the INFP awareness of others' emotional states. In this way there can be interactions between the INFP and INFJ in which no one is really that aware of what is going on inside the INFJ and everyone is focused on what is going on inside the INFP. I have a lot of admiration for the INFP, but I have seen very often a selective empathy in which there is an intensity of awareness and concern in certain contexts and obliviousness in others. If you look even at the Fi/Fe debate threads they focus much more on what's wrong with INFJs and how that makes INFPs feel and how it aligns with their inner constructs. It takes conscious effort to push back and suggest that the INFP also has flaws and limitations on their end of the interaction.

    Both Ti/Fi are more organized internally than Ni or Si, and Ti/Fi have a tendency to dismiss external information that doesn't conform to their well built inner constructs of reality. There is a stronger inner decisiveness, conclusiveness about the nature of self and other. Both types tend to see the Si/Ni-dom as decisive and dismissive, but that is at times the result of projection and assumption because it is difficult for a strong Ti/Fi-dom to imagine an internal state which is in flux. I've lived my entire life with either Fi or Ti-doms and this is my impression, but there are certainly exceptions, and I'm willing to consider that I am mistaken. I've had to work through tightly formed assumptions with my living partners about me and it takes a lot of energy and time to break through their certitude about my inner motivations. I still don't think I *know* my mother, my sister, my husband because I experience reality in a state of deep flux.
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  3. #1343
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    I think learning to be aware of and define our own feelings, along with learning how to talk about them in an open and timely fashion with those who are close to us, is something we need to do if we want those close relationships. And this is doable even though it doesn't FEEL like it at times. I'm not so sure how controllable my own feelings are. I can't stop them from happening, but I can lessen their impact and work through of some of them faster by having laid some groundwork, and by being aware that this is how I'm wired.
    Johari / Nohari

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  4. #1344
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by March View Post
    *nods* Me too. I CAN know and be aware of my emotional states, but it takes me deciding to do so. In real life, I usually just decide to ignore a wave of emotion, throw all potential actions based on those feelings overboard, and decide based on commitments/prospects. Commitment doesn't follow from intimacy for me, it's the other way around - commitment is what keeps me going through the phases that feel less than intimate, commitment keeps me from throwing my heart at someone's feet just because they said the right thing at the right time, and commitment makes sure I do the actions that keep relationships moving forward towards intimacy again, even though I may not 'feel like' them at that time. On any given day, I may feel 12 different things towards, for instance, my husband (neutral, madly in love, horny, pissed off, frustrated, contented, confused, bored, mischievous), and I'd drive myself crazy if I had to lean on those emotions/thought these emotions had to actually MEAN anything.

    I trust my feelings in that they are correct and measured responses to what's going on around and inside me at any given time, but I don't trust that the actions they inspire will get me the things I want and need. I do tend to evaluate and trust aggregates. If on the whole I feel more annoyed with my husband than loved by him, that's worth diving into - is he doing something innocuous that I'm misreading? Am I overfilling my agenda? Is there something more dangerous going on? But otherwise I usually pay more attention to other people's feelings/emotional states than my own.
    See, FI does the same, it tests and finds out that following impulses based on raw data like that tends to...be less than productive. But it then maps out a system for 'refining' those emotions into authentic states and feelings that are the follow up of those original raw emotions, which inspire the 'right' actions to take from there onwards. At least, that's how it works for me. And I use the same external data you do in order to filter those emotions into the proper state, so they are logically consistent from raw data to outcome - aka, from start to finish.

    In that respect, Intimacy can be refined into Commitment. If that raw data however dries up, the source of that problem has to be found and resolved - while you survive on what you still had left. I need to make sure that the Commitment does not just cannibalise itself but actually is actually fed the proper dose of Intimacy and Passion in there as well. As for the moments where it dries up - those happen -, I'm used to dealing with abundance and draught following each other up, as that is how raw emotions tend to work. It is normal to me, so it does not make me panic as I know that I only have to worry if the draught statistically is way off to normal. I've found it hard to - like NFJs can - regulate the output, intensity and steadfastness, actually.

    My guess is that you guys reverse the process; that Commitment inspires you to seek out Passion and Intimacy to complement it - which makes sense as Fe is more about going out and reaching your goals together while Fi is more about understanding and harnessing the raw potential of an individual.
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  5. #1345
    Member March's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    But it then maps out a system for 'refining' those emotions into authentic states and feelings that are the follow up of those original raw emotions, which inspire the 'right' actions to take from there onwards.
    Yeah. I wish I could to that better. I CAN, but it takes a lot of time and effort, like taking an entire week off and doing nothing but yoga and journaling and breathing soothing fumes. Every year or so it's worth it, to figure out where my life has gotten off the rails. It does, in the end, inspire a list of actions that feel right, instead of just useful.

    People who do that well have my eternal admiration.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    If that raw data however dries up, the source of that problem has to be found and resolved - while you survive on what you still had left. I need to make sure that the Commitment does not just cannibalise itself but actually is actually fed the proper dose of Intimacy and Passion in there as well. As for the moments where it dries up - those happen -, I'm used to dealing with abundance and draught following each other up, as that is how raw emotions tend to work. It is normal to me, so it does not make me panic as I know that I only have to worry if the draught statistically is way off to normal. I've found it hard to - like NFJs can - regulate the output, intensity and steadfastness, actually.
    Ooh, epiphany!

    If my raw data dries up, I tend to pour more of my surplus back into the reservoir. If the mill ever turns without there being any substrate, it starts grinding itself up. Usually what happens is that my main focus on keeping the wheels turning and the lights burning can bridge the drought, and afterwards everything flows freely again. Usually I try to focus the rest of my energy on fixing the problem, but I can't just stop the mechanism completely to free up resources. If the blockage isn't relieved in time and the reservoir runs dry completely, the Commitment starts to cannibalize itself, like you so aptly put it. And when there's nothing left but twisted gears - poof! Doorslam. Or rather: seized engine, no more movement possible.

  6. #1346
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    @fia, I think what might be happening on this forum between the INFPs and INFJs has some basis in the larger picture of society as a whole. Most societies are set up to accommodate a J-type way of thinking and acting, so the P-types have had to learn to adapt and bend from day one. So, I'm guessing that when they have discussions with us J-types, their perspective is that they're just being confronted with more of the same requirements for bending and adapting, while we are left to stay in our comfort zone. While some of them might be missing the INFJ perspective, I don't think that most of them are. They've had to adapt to something similar to it their whole lives.

    Imagine trying to tell most S-types what it's like to experience life as an N-type. N's have had to bend and adjust their whole lives, because society also favors the S perspective over the N. N's have spent their whole lives learning and adjusting to an S perspective, so it gets frustrating to have an S-type tell us that we don't understand their side of things.

    Or take any "minority" view that's trying to explain itself to the "majority". The same dynamic comes up. Unfortunately, when both sides feel like misunderstood minorities, because in many ways they are, then discussion gets stuck on who is more oppressed and deserving of their views being seen.

    When seen from this pov, the INFPs (and other P-types) who have tried over and over again to productively join in these discussions, have shown extraordinary patience and restraint.
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    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  7. #1347
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    @fia, I think what might be happening on this forum between the INFPs and INFJs has some basis in the larger picture of society as a whole. Most societies are set up to accommodate a J-type way of thinking and acting, so the P-types have had to learn to adapt and bend from day one. So, I'm guessing that when they have discussions with us J-types, their perspective is that they're just being confronted with more of the same requirements for bending and adapting, while we are left to stay in our comfort zone. While some of them might be missing the INFJ perspective, I don't think that most of them are. They've had to adapt to something similar to it their whole lives.

    Imagine trying to tell most S-types what it's like to experience life as an N-type. N's have had to bend and adjust their whole lives, because society also favors the S perspective over the N. N's have spent their whole lives learning and adjusting to an S perspective, so it gets frustrating to have an S-type tell us that we don't understand their side of things.

    Or take any "minority" view that's trying to explain itself to the "majority". The same dynamic comes up. Unfortunately, when both sides feel like misunderstood minorities, because in many ways they are, then discussion gets stuck on who is more oppressed and deserving of their views being seen.

    When seen from this pov, the INFPs (and other P-types) who have tried over and over again to productively join in these discussions, have shown extraordinary patience and restraint.
    This is an excellent post, and I admire people who can be consistently understanding and diplomatic. There is quite a bit of Fi in society including STJs and SFPs which are very prevalent. My ability to negotiate even loving relationships is compromised by Fi and Ti-doms who meant well, but were deeply dismissive of me, and it was actually an INFP who recently pushed me passed the edge of my sanity through dismissal and letting all the shit fall to me. @PeaceBaby made a good point about the external emotional currency that can be associated with Fe, but in my own family there was an inner currency based on need. My Fi-dom mother was very protective and tried to compensate for the external harm done to her children by balancing their power and needs within the home. When my sister had school phobia and took homeschooling, I was attending the public school, but I was required to do house chores and she was not because of her emotional stress. It was also a way to give her more power in the context of the home.

    Every Fi/Ti-dom I've lived with has articulated and presented personal needs far stronger than I can, and so my entire framework gets lost in them. They have complete power, complete say over their needs and mine, over their motivations and mine, and I'm rather burnt out. I've seen the same thing happen to ISFJs and possibly even moreso because they cannot create internal escapes like a Ni-dom can. I adore each Fi/Ti-dom, but I've lived my life quite voiceless among them, even though they are kind and compassionate. There is just an assumption of dismissal that they can't see because of a tendency towards projection. Certainly this isn't always the case and it occurs moreso when there is emotional pain and scars inside of them.

    I guess what I am saying is that what you say is probably the more accurate in the broader sense, but I decided to push back a bit because of experience. Even if my statement only counts for .0001% of the global truth, I still want to put it out there for consideration.

    Society accommodates the Fe and Te dom, and not the Ni dom so much at all. I think these threads are not being constructed correctly at all. It would make more sense to have discussions between INFP and ENFJs in a comparative manner and also between INFJs and ENFPs because those are the ones that form the parallels.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
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    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  8. #1348
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by March View Post
    Yeah. I wish I could to that better. I CAN, but it takes a lot of time and effort, like taking an entire week off and doing nothing but yoga and journaling and breathing soothing fumes. Every year or so it's worth it, to figure out where my life has gotten off the rails. It does, in the end, inspire a list of actions that feel right, instead of just useful.

    People who do that well have my eternal admiration.



    Ooh, epiphany!

    If my raw data dries up, I tend to pour more of my surplus back into the reservoir. If the mill ever turns without there being any substrate, it starts grinding itself up. Usually what happens is that my main focus on keeping the wheels turning and the lights burning can bridge the drought, and afterwards everything flows freely again. Usually I try to focus the rest of my energy on fixing the problem, but I can't just stop the mechanism completely to free up resources. If the blockage isn't relieved in time and the reservoir runs dry completely, the Commitment starts to cannibalize itself, like you so aptly put it. And when there's nothing left but twisted gears - poof! Doorslam. Or rather: seized engine, no more movement possible.
    ha! Yeah, see, I have no qualms shutting that shit down until Ive figured it out. As I said, I'll only do that after Ive verified that it aint a natural draught, but if it aint working as it is supposed to, I get in there and pull out the guts if I need to. I once told my INTJ - and man, was that unfair towards him but needed - that I needed 2 weeks to know again how I felt about him. I'd gotten in so deep emotionally, into a situation where other peoples emotions had taken over (compare it to no longer hearing the people talking to you but only the bass that is playing so hard it drowns everything else), that I no longer knew what was what. I told him it would take 2 weeks, no more. And I got to work. I locked myself inside, only went to school when I had to and spent two weeks in complete solitude and self-reflection. After that, I was able to give him a crystal clear answer, in every which way he needed to be reassured. He understood. He knows he can count on me to be honest with him as long as he gives me the time and space to find, locate and fix the problem. I also learned to *NEVER* let it get that bad ever again, and installed some alarm valves along the way so I'd be on top of it faster next time.

    But yeah, you guys keep the engine going, which accounts for your very enviable ability to keep everyone supplied and for that matter, extending past a romantic relationship, stay in touch with everyone in your network. My...need for cocooning tends to be an obstacle to maintaining a steady network. My INTJ knows that the well might sometimes dry up but it will refill with abundance rather quickly if he leaves me be for a night - something that aint a problem for an introvert, luckily
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  9. #1349
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post



    hahaha.


    My point, which was directed towards FLD's comments in this thread, specifically that gem "Treat people right..."
    You can't just throw-out some made-up saying...some pseudo-adage as if it were scientific fact... And then use it to condemn another person as if the **truth** within the saying itself provides you insight into a situation you otherwise know nothing about.

    Likewise, you cannot claim that certain **universal truths** magically only apply to ENTPs. In other words, if you are an INFJ in this thread that was "totally down" with FLD's comments when they were directed towards Mane...please know that according to the law of universal truths...these same comments must apply to you as well...them being universal and all.

    So, if for example you've ever been in a relationship where the person totally screwed you over and left your ass <--Please review that history.

  10. #1350
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Well that's partly the benefit of Ni: it closes itself off to intruding perceptions. Ne basically requires that I let the invaders in and see if I can get along with them.
    This is almost certainly nitpicking, but I'm inclined to see it as: Ni is resilient to intruding judgment but gets thrown off by being pummeled with incoming proposed perception (which in a way is still judgment, but it's more about estimating 'what is' than it is about having an opinion about 'what is'). And then, from the sounds of it (not just your post, but from the sounds of when a Fi user posts about it) vice versa for Fi.

    In some previous post, you'd mentioned feeling- after yeghor's analogy- like he wasn't giving you enough options. My first thought was, "Why would a person need external permission to internally consider other options? How does that make someone feel like it's not available to come up with something else?" Or in this other post you linked - I just re-read, and had the same what? reaction all over again. The stuff about Fe (or at least, quite a bit of it) that drives people crazy sorta rolls off my back without incident, it can be hard to understand how it affects people so horribly (I believe that it does, I'm just saying it's hard to grasp)- but I do understand it via my experience of Pe and Te, to which I am much less resilient. With Pe especially- it feels like someone is throwing the tip of an iceberg at me, believing they are throwing something small and completely oblivious to this enormous thing it's attached to under the surface. It’s like they think they're tossing 5 lbs of ideas at me, when it's actually 25 to 100 lbs to Ni (some people.....maybe 1,000 lbs). I instantly pick up on inconsistencies and logistical flaws....though I don't know what they are right away, I'll only know there are alarms going off in my head telling me there are important kinks to iron out. ( <- And that, right there, is probably what that ‘extra weight’ is composed of.) Sometimes it takes years to figure out why something stood out to me as significant- like I'll be washing my hair, or pulling a tray of tater tots out of the oven, and BAM! ...I'll suddenly realize why something bothered me months or years prior. This is why I tend to gravitate towards people who know how to shave it down to 10 lbs before they throw it at me- and I feel a strong urge to keep the people who inadvertently and systematically throw 100-1,000 lbs at me (and then get angry when it makes me withdraw/disappear ) at as much of a distance as it takes to maintain my sanity.

    Pe can dump a bunch of weight….and then not understand how it’s still there five minutes later for Pi. It can take forever for Pi to sort through that shit, and people who don’t begin to ‘get’ that are generally denied access after a while. Sometimes I think the Fe urge to enforce some external protocol is actually about keeping others’ superfluous cognitive refuse from building up in Pi (introverted perception)- that it’s more about protecting Pi than Pe’ers can even imagine.

    I’m going to guess something similar happened with the analogy yeghor gave (or my post that you linked)- it was like 5 lbs of question/judgment that expanded into 50 (yeghor) or 500 (me) lbs of question/judgment (the question itself, and then the consequent questions it raised- about why it seemed ‘off’/leading)? And life is infinitely easier around people who know how to shave off that extra weight and post questions in such a way that aren’t leading, so you can focus on the actual question without a bunch of 'white noise' interfering?

    Understand it in what way? What sort of information do you need? Do you mean what the Fe user is specifically doing to make people feel like that? Or what mindset you are in when it's happening?

    I did mention more details about this in my last post, but perhaps I didn't explain it well or it wasn't helpful.
    Oh the contrary, I've found your posts in this thread very helpful. I'm sorta reluctant to delve into the Fi/Fe-ness (off topic), but your description of your experience of going up against Fe is exactly the kind of thing that helps. (As I've said before) I really don't get much out of 'how to behave' lists because it feels too contrived to me, it's too constricting. The thing that helps me adapt my behavior more than anything is understanding the root of the problem- simply being handed a list of things to do or not to do is too superficial a remedy and it’s too much to memorize.

    My hope is that I'll eventually stumble over enough explanations like that (ones that happens to 'click' and make sense to me) here and there that I'll be able to clearly associate certain Fe behaviors as 'equivalents' to the Pe and Te stuff that drives me insane. I've learned though that the way I go about asking for it fails (as you pointed out, in quoting that other thread), so it almost has to be accidental to catch effective Fi descriptions.

    ***

    @March, great posts. (And welcome!)

    ***
    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    But the bolded wasn't really a peculiar turn to take in the discussion because it was basically what the discussion was supposed to be about originally, but that got lost or misinterpreted for various reasons.
    I’m not sure exactly where the definition of “doorslam” changed then, because the thread didn’t start with that definition? I believe you that, apparently, at some point that’s what other people here were referring to (exclusively- and the ‘peculiar’ part, to me, seems that the rest of us were just supposed to ‘know’ to completely ignore all the ways in which “doorslam” generally means something broader…..but in fairness, there are a couple people whose posts I can’t handle reading at all, so maybe I missed something). And yeah, if we’re excluding instances from the term “doorslam” where it’s a valid and healthy choice to discontinue interaction….that changes a lot of things. I keep hearing insinuation (whether it’s still there or not) that INFJs only “think” they’re feeling distressed because someone else is overbearing, but the “truth” (the “INFJ blindspot”) is that we simply don’t like information that isn’t flattering and we tell ourselves some story (e.g: about how the other person is “overbearing”) so that we can dismiss the information. <- If absolutely no one here is insinuating that, then yeah, I’ve got the wrong impression.

    So could the bolded also be thought of as a blind spot? Because I got the impression that that was also what this thread was trying to address after rereading it: blind spots.
    My first thought is that there’s a slight difference, in that defense mechanisms are something that kick in to protect the ego from the stress/pain/fear of feeling unlovable/unacceptable. Whereas I’d think these ‘blind spots” are more about something an entire type (healthy or not) is inclined to have a hard time seeing. But then, each ‘type’ is going to have some common defense mechanisms, so maybe. My point in that, though, was that these blind spots will necessarily only get worse in hostile environments- which is precisely why I feel like this discussion you’re trying to raise in this thread is like trying to put out a fire by throwing gasoline on it (focusing on the ‘liquid’ quality of it).

    Regarding the rest- I’m not going to continue that conversation in this thread. I feel like a lot of the things you’re saying are things I already know. I do know that I’ve already noticed quite a few tendencies in INFJs I know (that have annoyed me), and I have had realizations about seeing these things in myself. I’d see NFJ friends do something, have some theory about why they did it- and it always makes me realize that I know this because it’s something I do too. Discussing it would involve being open about certain insecurities, revealing vulnerabilities and weak spots- all of which I’m capable of. But I do not think it’s a good idea to reveal these things in certain company, in this thread, perhaps even in this forum (until the day when it’s possible to have a discussion and limit the people who can see it). I have my reasons- which I will not list here, if only because it would be unkind- to believe it would fall more on the ‘enabling’ end of the spectrum. I’m not even saying I know I’m right about this- I’m just saying the feeling is too strong to ignore how much of a very real possibility it is.

    I think it’s great you’ve had some epiphany- I just don’t think that same epiphany for other INFJs is really hiding around the corner here as much as you seem to think it is? [At least I’m getting the impression you think it is…it feels to me like you’re pushing for others to follow you....in this thread. If I’m wrong about that, I apologize. ]

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    But to be perfectly frank, I feel like that INFJs don't know their own emotional states and inclinations as well as they think they do - they can be like Thinkers in this regard. They're such experts in human behaviour but their emotional drives seem rather unconscious for them. It can be hard to get around this because they can have trouble accepting things that exist outside the realm of what they can perceive.
    I agree that INFJs aren’t anywhere near as focused on labeling/giving much weight to immediate feelings- that generally a pattern has to emerge before feelings stand out as significant (and honestly, even then, we have to make a conscious effort or we'll keep putting it off). I’m curious about the “as well as they think they do” part though- I often feel like refusing certain ‘feeling’ labels here and there gets mistaken as denial, when it's actually more about reluctance to commit to a label (which is directly because I don't know what I'm feeling, immediate feelings (to me) are always just a fraction of a bigger picture- ime, it's a step in the wrong direction to slap a label on it that *might* not be correct). Do you actually know INFJs who do focus on immediate feelings and claim to feel something that isn’t congruent to what you sense, or are you talking about the refusal to allow certain labels being slapped on in the first place? [Granted, I can be clumsy about it- I might say, "I'm not angry" as shorthand/clumsy estimate for "I don't know what I'm feeling, and I don't want to label/talk about it right now." I have gathered from what Fi doms say that they actually resent the "leave it alone" shorthand, and they need the long part to actually be articulated in order to let it go?]

    eta: It's worth mentioning, I do tend to form loose opinions myself about how self-aware people seem to be of their feelings- it's just that these opinions aren't formed on their reaction in-the-moment. If someone looks angry and they say, "I'm not angry"- I take that to mean, "It's not available to discuss this with me right now." Whether or not that person is self aware (imo) is more based on what happens after that- do they continue to refuse to acknowledge there was a problem, and do they get passive aggressive instead to take out the anger? ...do they come up to me and say, "Yeah, you know what- that actually is a problem and I'm not comfortable with it." Or sometimes if they continue to refuse to talk about it, I'll simply see that as not especially trusting me enough to talk about it...which is fine....but if they seem to be able to process it appropriately then that is the kind of thing I base opinions of 'self-awareness' on. This urgency to need other people to drop everything and talk about what they're immediately feeling.....I just don't get it *and* I don't give it anywhere near as much weight in the 'self awareness' category.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

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