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  1. #1331
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    In the context of what I was saying earlier, PeaceBaby's statement relates to the INFP fundamental/universal understanding of human beings. In this case, it's not so much about templates (ie. regarding kinds of people, kinds of behaviours) but is based on a common overarching axiom that is taken into account when dealing with all people. In this case that axiom could be, "ulterior motives do not equate with malice" - perhaps combined with, "the fallibility of the individual does not necessarily negate the value of the information offered". Something like that. So, to clarify, we use both the templates (dealing with the specifics of human nature) and axioms (dealing with the broad strokes of human nature) to help decipher and read other people. This helps us to connect individuals to the general aspects of the human condition; it's completing the circle by joining and integrating Fi and Te.

    I believe that what she's doing isn't sidestepping people, per se, it's about sidestepping the distracting factors, by use of axioms she has developed or become aware of over time. This is a method we employ to find clarity in all the madness. When you find ways to sidestep the distorted surface factors, you can avoid the "subjective noise" and figure out what's at the heart of the issue.

    Does that somehow answer your question?

    BTW PB, I hope I'm not overstepping the mark here.
    That was lovely and saved me trying to explain that it's not about sidestepping anyone. Far from it. Thank you muchly.

    ------------------------------------------------------------

    Here's a quick little story:

    Yesterday I was at our "music team" practice. We are learning a new piece that will be performed February 2nd and it's nowhere near ready. Since many of the folks in our music team do not read music, we must rely on going over each section repeatedly to sink it into auditory memory. This piece also has a couple of time changes, so keeping track of our timing overall is important and unfortunately quite messy at the moment. We've only got one more practice 'til we sing it.

    Our conductor is also the "pianist" and she is usually not facing us to keep time. Sometimes I lightly tap my toes to keep my own time, whilst having one eye peeled to her fingers to watch her speed. I've been in choirs for many years and am totally aware that any extraneous tapping sound is generally distracting to keeping time overall, so I take great pains to not do it loud enough to be any kind of problem. This tapping isn't usually conscious though. However, there are times I do move my foot consciously, like when I'm not hearing the tempo properly or when the folks around me are throwing me off-beat and it helps to focus me and keep my timing solid.

    Anyway, there's the preamble. Look how I'm already feeling oppressed and putting myself in a position to justify myself.

    So yesterday, I was tapping my toes more than usual. We were going through this piece line by line, and people were having troubles. I'm focussing on keeping the right time and out of the blue one of the older ladies reaches over the person beside her, touches my leg, and with irritation says, "Can you stop that? I can't hear the notes". This startles me, and now what I am supposed to do? If I keep moving, I'm not being considerate of her apparent need for me to stop and keep still. If I don't move my foot, I lose one of the tools I personally find very helpful to allow me to keep time and lead our section.

    What would you do?

    So here's the rub: I am the person who is forced to compromise my preference here. It does not matter that it makes my experience more difficult, because by not conceding the action I would be deemed inconsiderate. Using the same teminology, she is as equally "inconsiderate" in the moment to impose her preference over mine. And yet I am not being inconsiderate for wishing to try to work through this music true to my own preference, nor is she for wishing I not tap it out. It's the judging of my behaviour that is the issue. The "toe-tapping" behaviour is not intrinsically good or bad in any way. My intention was not to be a distraction, and yet it was. It was not right for her. But I am the one who is compelled to change. Not she to adapt.

    Of course, I adapted and did not move my foot for the rest of practice. I was startled though and I did let a flash of it show. After all, it's rude to jostle someone and tell them what to do. After the rehearsal, she was conciliatory and trying to explain she didn't mean to be demanding, it's just that hearing any low tones / tapping sounds makes it hard for her to concentrate on singing her notes. And I did remember her talking about tinnitus a couple of months back, so was kindly and sympathetic and made her feel ok for expressing herself, even though it did startle me in the moment and I didn't enjoy that. I just find it interesting that she feels free to impose her preferences over mine without any due consideration for why I was doing what I was doing. As though I was doing something wrong ... it's not actually wrong.

    This is the purview of Je. One's preference is a lens of what other things or people should or should not do. How actions or behaviour does or does not affect you. How things should be. And the need to control the external extends into pushing and pulling the actions of the people all around you. Do this, don't do that, if you comply you are good, if you don't comply you are bad.

    Subjectivity passed off as objectivity. Every.Single.Day.

    Anyway, the point of this story? I've really realized that it's almost all about behaviour for Fe. Practically nothing is about the internal human landscape, the purview I think of as Fi. I figured incorrectly that INFJ's could somehow access that space indirectly. But after thousands of posts on the topic, I realize there's no read on the other to realize the internal state and adjust according to that in the moment. The person who's come closest is @Eilonwy and for that I want to say I truly appreciate her efforts. So, to answer the question of another thread, no INFJ's are not telepathic because if they were they would realize this inability to see all of these other perspectives.

    Overall, I don't think any J types realize how much P types already adapt to their preferences. And the funny thing is that the J types think that other people are unreasonable! Pretty hilarious actually.

    And another true story - my husband and I were talking about the cars we've had over the years a few months back and he said, "You picked out all of our cars" to which I said, "I did not, I did the research and made a recommendation, but I didn't choose what we bought. We both did." To which he replied, "Yes you did, we always buy the one you say we should buy" and after some more "discussion" on the topic, I realized that he DID NOT KNOW that the cars I really wanted I had already done the research on and deemed them inappropriate, out of the running somewhere along the line in the decision-making process. Because I did not express any initial preference, and how I had already conceded it, he felt I was advocating for my preference!

    Again, hilarious!

    So, I've decided I am out of these discussions for now. This endless itch may never get scratched. Sorry to anyone who I haven't answered questions to.

    To @March, no, I have never advocated "INFJs needing to 'give up the right to doorslam' to be a reliable partner." I don't think I've even said anything remotely close to that. But nevertheless, thanks for your post.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  2. #1332

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post



  3. #1333

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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I think Z Buck also experienced a breakdown at that point due to feeling that his/her perceptions of how offensive posters' were coming across were being invalidated...I think INFJ and INFP styles of communication are incompatible and make both sides feel invalidated...

    INFJ focuses on intent/cause (why)...INFP focuses on affect (what)...

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    When you find ways to sidestep the distorted surface factors, you can avoid the "subjective noise" and figure out what's at the heart of the issue.
    Why doesn't that (avoiding subjective noise) work with INFJs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    So Fi's an emotional barometer and associates/records (or pull back from the records) how the individual felt in a specific instance using Si...

    So when a similar emotion is triggered in INFP it also invokes past memories (traumas in the event of negative feelings?) associated with that emotion?

    So when a negative emotion is triggered in INFP, INFP is prone to associating it with a past event too readily without diligently examining whether the external circumstances/situation is predominantly the same with that of the past event? So may end up feeling justified/right in some situations despite the external circumstance may be dictating otherwise?

    So, Ne should learn to filter Fi emotional output based on the immediate external circumstances like "I am feeling angry and this feels similar to this past event but this and this are different than that past event which may mean I must filter my emotional output cause it's not exactly appropriate for this case..."?

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    You're asking me? I would rather you tell me what you think.
    I was hoping you could tell what (triggers and knots) you'd observed in INFJ emotional landscape based on your face to face interactions with INFJs, if any? Like, "hmm here's a hot spot/trigger, I should better not push this one...or adjust myself in such a way so I will not trigger it"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Well I'm a 4w5 so the darkness in another person's soul doesn't frighten me (OTOH perhaps INFP 9s or 6s will back off more often). However, if the way that darkness manifests externally starts to cause problems that I can't find ways to remedy or reconcile with, I might be inclined to back off.
    What if they do not want to allow you to disengage...like put an obligation on you to maintain the connection?

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Oh you did? Great! Do you have any perspectives on it relating to doorslamming?
    She was still a child...The mother and the manager both tried to milk her fame/glory/fortune and fought over her as if she was a property...She got stuck in the middle of the fire...Her manager violated rules of professionality and her parent violated rules of parenting...

    Her mother wasn't fit for parenting as she couldn't manage her finances (by trying to compensate for her unhappiness thru spending)...She should have served as a safehaven where Jena could fall back onto whenever she was stressed from the workload...

    Her mother lost sight of her daughter's wellbeing and instead focused on her own...and failed to recognize what she thought she had been doing for her daughter's wellbeing was actually causing her more harm than good...She should have fallen back, built a stable/happy life of her own (less dependent on Jena) where Jena could have taken refuge from the limelight...

    I guess the mother had serious fear of abandonment and loneliness issues and was inadvertantly using her child as an emotional crutch and a friend to keep her company...

    I think she handled it quite well given her age and that she had not resorted to drug and alcohol AFAIK...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judgment_of_Solomon
    Last edited by yeghor; 01-21-2014 at 06:35 AM. Reason: Link added

  4. #1334
    Member March's Avatar
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    Ah, my apologies, @PeaceBaby. (I know you're out of the discussion, just wanted to show you where I got confused.)

    It was @Mane who said:

    i already explained how maintaining "the right to doorslam" in existing relationships if anything doesn't go your way is an unhealthy take of a 100% of the power in a relationship. giving that up is a healthy rebalancing of unequal power. essentially it's like holding a gun to every relationship's head for the prospecting doorslammer to judge when someone is dead to you (and then demanding they will play dead), as long as you hold that gun no relationship is ever going to have a healthy distribution of power unless they do the same to you.
    And in your first post below that you say:

    @Mane is picking up on the path I'm nudging towards. It's about the recognition that in a typical relationship dynamic its unfair for one person to reserve control of 100% of the interactions (barring abusive scenarios which require these measures). Anyone reserving the "right" to terminate interactions unequivocally defeats any ability to solve complex issues and often leaves the other in a position of having to relinquish their own personal power to maintain peace. It feels like a metaphorical guillotine held over the head [...] When INFJ's (or anyone) hold the last card on the issue of doorslamming, they can, in effect, hold all of their interactions with others hostage to the ultimate power play.
    Since @Mane was advocating for relinquishing doorslamming, you said @Mane was picking up on your path, and your arguments were the same, I figured that your path also took you past HIS conclusion. But you never actually explicitly said that, so I overlooked that there's room in your stance for something else, although I don't think I have the sense of nuance to decide exactly exactly your conclusion would be. Maybe you weren't advocating for anything, just summing up the way you see it without extrapolating into 'so a best practice would be X.'

    (Interesting insight into my own perspective: I do think that everyone in a relationship with me has the same gun or guillotine. Of course they do, even. How could they not? Maybe my husband decides tomorrow that he's finally fed up with our little returning squabbles and picks up and leaves. I think that's his right, and I don't think I'd ever get a satisfactory explanation nor do I think I could talk him into giving me another chance, even though to me the relationship still looked like it could be saved. I'd be heartbroken and destroyed, but that doesn't mean he's wrong for doing so. As long as he doesn't torch the house and strip the bank accounts while he's at it. So that's a fair distribution of weapons, in a way.)

  5. #1335
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    I think Z Buck also experienced a breakdown at that point due to feeling that his/her perceptions of how offensive posters' were coming across were being invalidated...I think INFJ and INFP styles of communication are incompatible and make both sides feel invalidated...
    I think that perhaps they are naturally less compatible but I think with some small adjustments in both the way each communicates and in the way they receive the information would help. We just need to figure out what works and what doesn't for each other. I do this all the time with different types IRL.

    INFJ focuses on intent/cause (why)...INFP focuses on affect (what)...
    Sort of. I think INFPs are more focused on "meaning". That can relate to both cause and effect but in the sense of what that they signify/entail/suggest. The "what" has no significance to me until I until I come to grips with what it means.

    Why doesn't that (avoiding subjective noise) work with INFJs?
    Oh it does for the most part. I've just had to learn more templates about dealing with them (and FJs in general). The problem is that they're such accommodating folks that when they not as direct in explaining what they need nor are they as vocal when they're dissatisfied.

    But to be perfectly frank, I feel like that INFJs don't know their own emotional states and inclinations as well as they think they do - they can be like Thinkers in this regard. They're such experts in human behaviour but their emotional drives seem rather unconscious for them. It can be hard to get around this because they can have trouble accepting things that exist outside the realm of what they can perceive.

    Anyway that's just an off-hand observation. Don't get me started on how dopey INFPs can be.

    Basically yes. But Fi is not just feelings; it's more generally about evaluations.

    So, Ne should learn to filter Fi emotional output based on the immediate external circumstances like "I am feeling angry and this feels similar to this past event but this and this are different than that past event which may mean I must filter my emotional output cause it's not exactly appropriate for this case..."?
    Perhaps in STJs, but Ne is very strong in NFPs. Ne is more automatic for us. What I described, I guess, is a Fi-Si loop; when Ne shuts down. In healthy INFPs, Ne avoids this constantly on an everyday basis.

    What I'm trying to get across is how Ne can prevent INFPs from using self-confirming information - which is something non-NFP MBTI enthusiasts fear (in theory) will be a problem in the type.

    I was hoping you could tell what (triggers and knots) you'd observed in INFJ emotional landscape based on your face to face interactions with INFJs, if any? Like, "hmm here's a hot spot/trigger, I should better not push this one...or adjust myself in such a way so I will not trigger it"?
    Oh, OK. They don't like presumptions to be made about them, especially if they're wrong. They need space when dealing with emotional stuff - so you shouldn't press them to respond to quickly. They hear observations as a call to action, so I have to be careful how I word things so they don't seem like demands, criticism or manipulation.

    What if they do not want to allow you to disengage...like put an obligation on you to maintain the connection?
    Awkward. People often do this to me - strangers do this to me. I usually put up with it until I can find an opening to escape - but I'm not good at dealing with that stuff.

    With my family, or someone I'm really close to, I might blow up at them. I get very irritable when I'm constantly having demands place on me.

    Do you think what the mother did was unforgivable? Do you think that she may have made mistakes, things spiraled out of control, and she lost sight of what mattered?

    Do you think Jena dealt with the situation in the best way possible? Do you think that her own issues may have contributed to the situation too?

    (BTW I pretty much agree with everything you said - I'm just trying to pick your brain.)
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  6. #1336
    Member March's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Do you think what the mother did was unforgivable? Do you think that she may have made mistakes, things spiraled out of control, and she lost sight of what mattered?

    Do you think Jena dealt with the situation in the best way possible? Do you think that her own issues may have contributed to the situation too?

    (BTW I pretty much agree with everything you said - I'm just trying to pick your brain.)
    Hi, barging into your conversation.

    Is that what doorslamming seems to be about for non-INFJs? Whether something is forgivABLE?

    In the case of Jena Malone, I think her mother sounds sweet, clueless, in over her head, and completely lacking in the education, resources and support system that could've alleviated those drawbacks. I think she made predictable human mistakes, and I think she did about as well as most people would have in that situation. Apart from petty acts of jealousy and revenge almost everybody is prone to occasionally, I think she meant well from start to finish.

    Still, asking whether what she did is forgivable is like asking me whether Paris is reachable by car. It is, in theory, but at this time my car is completely out of gas and I don't have the money to fill it up.

    In that situation, Jena was completely out of cope, and she didn't have the resources to fill up on it. So while nothing her mother had done was unforgivable, she didn't feel able to forgive right there and then and be happy or even productive with her around. You said that they'd reconciled? Jena seems to have been able to fill up on cope, shore up her own support system and resources, and maybe even grown some thicker skin. The doorslam of 'I'm not your daughter!' has probably never gone away completely - I don't see grown-up Jena going to her mother for the kind of advice daughters go to mothers for.

    Was what she did the best/strongest/most humane and empathetic thing ever? Probably not. Still, she was out of cope, and that severely limits options. Besides, her cope tank was smaller because she was a kid in extraordinary circumstances, the situation had drained it completely, and it was clear that her mother wasn't going to stop being damaging (no matter how accidentally!) any time soon. Just because someone isn't damaging you out of malice, doesn't mean you have to keep standing in the path of the damage. Getting out of the way gracelessly and causing a bunch of bruises here and there is allowable, IMO.

  7. #1337

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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    ...But to be perfectly frank, I feel like that INFJs don't know their own emotional states and inclinations as well as they think they do - they can be like Thinkers in this regard. They're such experts in human behaviour but their emotional drives seem rather unconscious for them. It can be hard to get around this because they can have trouble accepting things that exist outside the realm of what they can perceive.
    Some songs or movies can give me this feeling of bliss but that doesn't happen much IRL...I feel emotionally barren most of the time...In those times, what I don't know is whether it is there but I cannot recognize it or it is not there at all...

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Oh, OK. They don't like presumptions to be made about them, especially if they're wrong.
    "They don't like presumptions to be made about them, especially if they're wrong not properly justified in terms of cause and effect (Ti)." perhaps? Cause that makes those presumptions seem coming from out of nowhere or for some ulterior motive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Do you think what the mother did was unforgivable? Do you think that she may have made mistakes, things spiraled out of control, and she lost sight of what mattered?
    No it wasn't...She's her mother after all...And, yes, definitely...However, she pulled Jena inside her spiral as well when Jena was not old enough to be able to resist that effect...

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Do you think Jena dealt with the situation in the best way possible? Do you think that her own issues may have contributed to the situation too?
    Given her age, yes she did...She was not yet an adult...Her relationship with her mother was supposed to be adult-child relationship but the dynamic forced her to impose an peer-to-peer relationship on her own mother...She had to act like an adult when she was still a child and needed parenting...

    She had to end and get out of the dynamic to be able to decide clearly on how to act...She had to put a barrier between herself and her mother so as to be able to do what she needed to do without feeling guilty (as the mother, having tied her own happiness to the possession of Jena, would inadvertantly keep pulling her strings), as that would, most likely, cause her to give in and revert back into her role the dynamic and enable her mother further...

    The mother might even have spent Jena's earnings so as to unconciously render Jena dependent on her (or vice versa) and to impede her capacity to leave her (the mother) behind...

    One thing they didn't do was that they could have gone to a therapist to sort out these issues...I don't know if that would have turned out to be fruitful though...

  8. #1338
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    But to be perfectly frank, I feel like that INFJs don't know their own emotional states and inclinations as well as they think they do - they can be like Thinkers in this regard. They're such experts in human behaviour but their emotional drives seem rather unconscious for them. It can be hard to get around this because they can have trouble accepting things that exist outside the realm of what they can perceive.
    Yes. This is absolutely correct for me. I don't always know my emotional states. Strong feelings can be confusing--I can interpret them as being something they're not. And the ones that feel good can be somewhat addictive in a way. And they attach me to the people I feel them for, sometimes in ways that are against my own good sense. I can see how I could start to blame the other person for "causing" those feelings in me, when they have no idea of what I'm feeling, and I have no idea of why I'm feeling it.

    After reading the discussion in this thread, that started after @Zarathustra joined in, I realized that if I commit to relationships based on my feelings, I am most likely making a shaky commitment. I don't know how the other NF-types do it, but they seem to be able to trust their feelings in ways that I can't, or shouldn't. @Amargith's second paragraph here summed it up for me--I don't think I know how to commit based only on intimacy, so I shouldn't. I can't trust my feelings alone to make those decisions for me because I don't have a lot of control over those feelings and they aren't stable. I do need to be more like the Thinkers when it comes to close, intimate relationships.

    I also think that perhaps the way I experience my own feelings might work well when it's applied to whole groups of relationships, or non-intimate relationships. I can get a feel for those types of connections, see where problems in those relationships might lie, and look for solutions to those problems. But, all the mirroring and vagueness don't seem to work well when focused towards close, one-on-one relationships. For those, I need to find a different way of relating.

    I've come to see that I have to take responsibility for my own feelings, rather than relying on others to take care of them for me. That doesn't mean that others have no responsibility towards me in return, but I think I didn't know in what ways those responsibilities should be shared out, especially in intimate relationships. I can't base my commitments/decisions/judgements solely on what feels good and what feels bad, which I think I have a tendency to do.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  9. #1339
    A snowstorm is coming... Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    Yes. This is absolutely correct for me. I don't always know my emotional states. Strong feelings can be confusing--I can interpret them as being something they're not. And the ones that feel good can be somewhat addictive in a way. And they attach me to the people I feel them for, sometimes in ways that are against my own good sense. I can see how I could start to blame the other person for "causing" those feelings in me, when they have no idea of what I'm feeling, and I have no idea of why I'm feeling it.

    After reading the discussion in this thread, that started after @Zarathustra joined in, I realized that if I commit to relationships based on my feelings, I am most likely making a shaky commitment. I don't know how the other NF-types do it, but they seem to be able to trust their feelings in ways that I can't, or shouldn't. @Amargith's second paragraph here summed it up for me--I don't think I know how to commit based only on intimacy, so I shouldn't. I can't trust my feelings alone to make those decisions for me because I don't have a lot of control over those feelings and they aren't stable. I do need to be more like the Thinkers when it comes to close, intimate relationships.

    I also think that perhaps the way I experience my own feelings might work well when it's applied to whole groups of relationships, or non-intimate relationships. I can get a feel for those types of connections, see where problems in those relationships might lie, and look for solutions to those problems. But, all the mirroring and vagueness don't seem to work well when focused towards close, one-on-one relationships. For those, I need to find a different way of relating.
    Thank you for confirming something I've wondered for a long time - and to @Southern Kross for having the balls and eloquence to put it out there, for that matter. In that respect, I feel that it really shows that ENFP and INFJ are each others shadow sides. I actually have no doubt you do have the capability of examining your own feelings, and the evaluation of intimacy, as you guys are highly perceptive of emotional states, but it isn't a skill you're fully willing to lean on as you don't practice it enough in that particular field - and I feel the same about INFJs strengths. I miss the impulse to orchestrate and check up on people, the way you do, and big groups overwhelm me if I don't make a conscious shift to my shadow functions to manage that stuff, not to mention it tires me out way faster - compared to my natural process that almost automatically runs in the background.


    It also explains why INFJs are The Counsellor- it is a business situation where they can perfectly give their gifts the room they need, in a detached, impersonal manner, while still being warm, friendly, reassuring and incredibly perceptive, in the way the patient needs to address things.
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  10. #1340
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    I almost never know my emotional state on the spot. I'll sometimes notice there's a disturbance in the force and when I do, I usually try to figure it out but I don't actually have a lot of emotions of my own very often. Or I'm not conscious of having them.

    I'm much more often moved by the strong expression of emotion from others than I am moved by my own emotions. Books, movies, TV news easily make me cry. I cry about my own stuff maybe a handful of times a year. Usually I'm hormonal and I'm crying from frustration. If I'm showing overt emotion of my own, there is probably something physically wrong with me weakening my reserves. Sickness, hunger, exhaustion, extremes in temperature. I won't even realize I'm cranky until I encounter another person and realize I'm becoming irritated way out of proportion to the behavior.

    That's why I almost never address stuff when it initially upsets me. I don't know what's upsetting me and I don't know if it's that big a deal or if I forgot to eat. A lot of times, by the time I figure it out, it seems pretty silly to bring it up. But if, over time, I start seeing a pattern, then it starts to become a big deal. Or it could become an unconscious negative association like Pavlov's dogs.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

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    By littledarling in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 36
    Last Post: 02-18-2009, 02:23 PM

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