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  1. #121
    Senior Member Quiet's Avatar
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    This thread has been an interesting read...

    When I reflect on how much self work I have managed to do in my own personal life regarding how I doorslam, I can really see the difference in how and why I do it now as apposed to how I doorslammed then. In the past, I have just basically cut all ties and contact with those of whom I have deemed unacceptable for whatever reason. I would also give more benefit of the doubt and defy my Ni. Now, I drop more hints, and if those hints aren't taken heed of, then I eventually cut whomever out of my life. This is a rare thing for me to even have to experience now, as I don't disregard my intuition anymore...

    It has been a rare occurance just in the last year that I have had a "fight" with an INFP friend. This conflict brought me such intense discomfort and inner conflict that I simply had to draw a line and set a boundary of no contact until I felt as though I had enough space. Towards the end of nearly two months of no contact, this friend sent me a couple of text messages that indicated a tone of frustration, pain and anger as I had not contacted her during that time. We had a few text fights of which I tried to explain myself and my reasons, and eventually we managed to speak over the phone to come to a final understanding and conclusion. There have been bumps with this friend throughout the years that I have known her, but we she finally was able to examine her own behavior and has now chosen to not place expectations upon me to be more socially connected than I feel capible of. At the same time, I have had the opportunity to learn how important i am to others (despite my oblivion as to why they would care about me), and have tried to get my head out of my own "ahem _ _ _" and just try to trust that I am worthy of being loved and recognized for my good qualities that I sadly don't notice due to my fixations on my flaws. It's also been an interesting learning experience for me to just relax during social interractions with others, and to try not to hand over so much power to others and tailor the interractions to suit them. (as when we are seen as chameleons or "fake" because of our Fe). I think this process will take a lifetime for me to master though.

    I just find I need far more alone time and quietness than most people I know. I have a busy life with work, school and family, that I find I just don't have the emotional energy or drive for social interractions, when I feel guilty enough about not having enough energy for my family after work.

    Anyway, for what it's worth, I thought I'd add this too.
    "What's Taters, Precious?" --- Gollum.

    "Bring your pretty face, to my axe". --- Gimly.

  2. #122

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    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post




    This is probably the only thing left/worth doing. As others have said, shutting doors it's often a ill and permanent choice, not matter what the truth may be, including acknoledgment or neglecting of. Maybe Ni does see it all, even beyond consciousness, and all that is left to do is to grasp where the finger is pointing.

    Otherwise it feels like being stuck in the past forever. Even Ps need/want closure. But noone is really responsible for what another person wants or needs... :steam:
    Quote Originally Posted by StarryKnights View Post
    Hello phobik –

    I woke up a little earlier today and thought it would be a good idea to quickly log on and reread what I posted last night as I was tired and expected there would be some editing to do (yah, I’m a ‘word omitter’ and can often read a sentence I wrote as if the word is there and the sentence is complete - until I read it again with a fresh pair of eyes – weird).

    But I may have done more than omitting a word here and there. I may have created a bunch of nonsense and confusion with my ramblings as I am having a bit of trouble understanding your response to me – but would really like to. I’m sure I sound like a broken record (whoa – that is such a dated phrase come to think of it)…but I really mean it when I say how grateful I am when someone takes the time to comment on these threads as I learn so much from them.

    After reading some of the posts from Esoteric Wench and flylittlefeather, I admit I felt a little sorry for myself. And I’m sure a part of that came through in what I wrote. But I hope you don’t think I’m pointing a perpetual finger at my INFJ friend – oh gosh no. Like I tried to convey in an earlier post – my INFJ friend is the gentlest of spirits and good to the core. Was my ego bruised by his recent behavior towards me?…yah…but I’m actually glad to be getting this lesson because it is causing me to strive for a whole new understanding of people and not just INFJs. My ego is ‘in check’ and I’m happy with myself that I didn’t allow it to make assumptions and/or jump to hasty conclusions about the true nature of my friend based solely on his current outward behavior…but lead me here and to expanding my understanding of how I want to love and the type of friend I want to be (if that makes sense).

    Believe me when I say – I know what it feels like to have my behavior taken the wrong way. Is it the case we are held to a certain ‘SJ’ or ‘male’ or ‘professional’ standard of conduct? So that any action/reaction that deviates from that standard is subsequently perceived as being eccentric or outstanding in some way? I’ve felt that as my natural self goes against the ‘social norm’ each and every day it seems. With my INFJ I believe my mind thought to reverse that same process. Observe the behavior and then arrive at its meaning based on a ‘social norm’ which is not what I want to do. Doing that the only conclusion I could really arrive at is that he despises me. But my heart knows that isn’t true. Okay…I’m really ‘thinking aloud’ here and while I appreciate having the opportunity to do so…I also don’t want to put people to sleep!!

    Anyway, I wasn’t able to understand the parts you bolded from my quote. And I wasn’t quite sure what you were saying with regards to the parts I bolded in yours. Again, I would be interested in learning from you…if you get a chance to clarify.

    What I gathered from the input so kindly provided to me here was to make sure he understands that he is a hugely important part of my life...that he has not failed me…and to be patient, constant and light-hearted as oppose to pushy, emotionally changeable and melodramatic. This makes perfect sense to me…and is very much aligned with what I know he needs in a friend. I’m not looking for closure. Not once did I ever get the feeling this was a permanent door slam. Which is also why I came here. I needed to know how to be a good friend when the door cracks open a bit and he is looking through about eight of those little chain thingies (okay I’m quite certain that made no sense whatsoever).
    My post was somewhat unclear.
    I made some remarks about presence of the ego. Why I did this relates to Ne. Both as a reinforcement of my ability to perceive it and to share my perceptions with others so they can learn from it or provide feedack I can use.

    I also bolded parts that I can relate to, regarding the post-doorlsam encounters.

    The pointing I mentioned refers to the possibility of Ni seing it all, beyond the INFJ or anyone else's awareness, and thus, being ultimately accurate and right in the guidance it provides for the INFJ's decisions and actions.

    Something like "I don't know why, but I feel/know it, and therefore will <insert action here>". Not to dismiss anything being said here, particularly about unhealthy/immature [aka egoic] behavior.:steam:

    And therefore, unless one is omniscient [aka INFJ ] the final, less conflicting [with Existence] stance would be to accept [which you also mentioned, throught your improvement in insight] and make peace with what Is, while understanding it or not, and move on, This would possibly point to this thread being irrelevant, despite all the insight it has provided, if that makes sense.

  3. #123

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    Cascadeco and Quiet, thank you so much for your thoughtful responses. They really do help shed light on a personality type so different from my own.

    Surface similarities and apparently copacetic communication styles give the illusion that two types understand each other better than they actually do, putting them at ease and reducing the need to throw oil onto a well-oiled machine. Only after the machine breaks down do you look back and realize that you often were not exactly on the same lines. It's almost easier to beware of misunderstanding when you're confronted with an obviously, radically different personality type. Anyone feel me on this?

    Cascadeco, I agree my situation was especially complicated b/c it came out of a romantic relationship. My ex's have all stayed friends of mine, so I didn't see it as a problem (this could be a P thing?). Moreover, my INFJ ex actually was the one who suggested remaining friends! Isn't that odd?

    This INFJ sent me all kinds of mixed messages after breaking up - let's talk on the phone, let's not, let's be friends, let's not, etc. I guess I am so used to the decisiveness of the INFJ that when they start spiraling out, it is baffling. It can make a non-INFJ concerned, but showing this concern apparently makes things worse/increases the white noise for the INFJ.

    People have different manners of responding to stress - going inward (contemplation), outward (talking to others), avoiding, etc. If I have a problem with someone, I would rather sort things out with them directly. It helps to hear their explanation; as I listen and learn more, I adapt my response accordingly. I also would love it if they approached me to show concern, apologize, etc., even though I'm an introvert. Maybe the ENFPs can relate to this discrepancy? I didn't imagine that walking away from someone would show them you care... but I am slowly starting to understand how this is exactly what some people need.

    To Quiet, your post was so clear and did not make things worse at all! It makes sense that if something bothers you abt someone - something that is just integral to their personality, or whatever - you might as well just leave it be. Why try to change someone's innate qualities? It's like telling someone to make their eyes blue instead of brown. But unlike traits, behavior is not always so innate, and I just wish that we (who have offended INFJs) got more credit for our capacity to change.

  4. #124
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Part of that may have to do with the fact that because we think a lot about the framework we put new ideas, thoughts, experience into to hold it all together, we are often very reluctant to restructure everything unless it is very obviously and clearly the better choice. It is a lengthy process and once we've considered all of that, it's hard to start over again.

    We also don't tend to speak out about an opinion or do something without it representing a lot of who we are. If we would risk conflict for it, it probably means that we are pretty committed to the idea.

    I think both of those things may make us assume that others are as unlikely to change as us. There was an interesting discussion about this in the ESTJ thread. For all of their bluster and their sometimes appearance of not being open to opinions, they are actually much more changeable than INFJs tend to be.

    (Usual disclaimer about the use of "we").

  5. #125

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
    In the past, I have just basically cut all ties and contact with those of whom I have deemed unacceptable for whatever reason. I would also give more benefit of the doubt and defy my Ni. Now, I drop more hints, and if those hints aren't taken heed of, then I eventually cut whomever out of my life.
    Some people may miss the subtlety of hints, unfortunately. I still haven't figured out when is the time to be straightforward.



    Quote Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
    It has been a rare occurance just in the last year that I have had a "fight" with an INFP friend. This conflict brought me such intense discomfort and inner conflict that I simply had to draw a line and set a boundary of no contact until I felt as though I had enough space.
    How did she react when you told her about it? As an INFP (who doesn't know any), I am curious.


    Quote Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
    At the same time, I have had the opportunity to learn how important i am to others (despite my oblivion as to why they would care about me), and have tried to get my head out of my own "ahem _ _ _" and just try to trust that I am worthy of being loved and recognized for my good qualities that I sadly don't notice due to my fixations on my flaws.
    This isn't always easy. I am sure there are a number of reasons for that.
    But I wish INFJs in general knew how special their qualities are. They are easy to miss at first glance, b/c INFJs tend to be humble and thought-out, so I wonder if these qualities sometimes go unheard/overlooked.


    Quote Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
    I just find I need far more alone time and quietness than most people I know.
    YAY! - that's a good thing to recognize. It's perfectly okay to ask for the time and quietness you need! Not everyone will understand it, but at least you'll be taking care of yourself.

    Asking for quietness isn't any stranger than asking for rowdiness. There's nothing that makes going out and having a jolly good time more legit than having an enriching time with Amy Tan at home.

  6. #126
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    The only time I have cut ties with a friend (a rare thing, very rare) is when my friend is, by nature, critical or competitive with me. I've realized that they don't mean to be critical or competitive, or that it doesn't mean they don't like me, but it's just that I don't like to be around that. It's not what I feel a friend should be. Ultimately, I never feel completely comfortable around them because I have to explain myself, or defend a position. Sure, that's something we all have to do at times but if it's something that happens consistently, I begin to close down. And even the friends I feel this way about, I still like them, it's just that I don't feel comfortable around them as I might with my dearest friends who are not AS judgmental. I can forgive almost everything but competiveness or too much sharpness or criticitism will drive me away.

  7. #127
    Dope SunnySunflower's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post
    The pointing I mentioned refers to the possibility of Ni seing it all, beyond the INFJ or anyone else's awareness, and thus, being ultimately accurate
    Something like "I don't know why, but I feel/know it, and therefore will <insert action here>". Not to dismiss anything being said here, particularly about unhealthy/immature [aka egoic] behavior.:steam:

    And therefore, unless one is omniscient [aka INFJ ] the final, less conflicting [with Existence] stance would be to accept [which you also mentioned, throught your improvement in insight] and make peace with what Is, while understanding it or not, and move on, This would possibly point to this thread being irrelevant, despite all the insight it has provided, if that makes sense.
    Phobik – thank you so much for responding. The thoughts you put forth here (a 2nd time) make a good deal of sense to me now and will undoubtedly lead me to an even deeper understanding of me, my situation and relationships in general. Again, thank you for returning and providing clarification.

    It is interesting for me to consider how I would have felt had my INFJ sat me down and said “I don’t know why, but I feel/know…(lets say)…that our relationship is headed in a negative direction. My intuition tells me it is time we go our separate ways. I will always love you and hope the best for you…” (you get the idea).

    If that was what occurred…and then the closing of the door…believe me, it would hurt…but at the same time I would be ‘spooked’ and think the relationship ending would be for the best. Likewise, there would be some semblance of closure.

    What was described above isn’t really a doorslam though.

    I would never label my INFJ as ‘unhealthy’. He is far healthier, in my opinion, than most individual’s I encounter on a daily basis. But in my case, the peaceful “I don’t know why, but I feel/know” did not come into play.

    He is classic INFJ but has adapted in a way, I believe in an effort to protect his inner gentleness, by becoming the ‘cynical INFJ male’ which has been discussed on this forum and others. He has told me that he doesn’t think about himself (which at first I thought was untrue…but I came to believe it). He believes ‘typology’ is a bunch of hocus-pocus, etc. etc.

    I suspected, but managed to put it together in a concrete way via the assistance provided here, that this doorslam was more of an immediate (not thought out) hair-trigger reaction to a perceived disappointment. And now he doesn’t know how to get out of it…so it continues.

    When this is the case do we accept what is?

    I’m sincerely asking. And I wonder how many Ni based, omnipotent doorslams occur versus the kind of doorslam that comes from an inability to assertively express one’s needs, or the hair-trigger version, or all the other types of doorslams in existence. How does the ‘slammed’ individual know which kind of slam they have received?

    It would indeed by less conflicting to accept my INFJs doorslam and let it go –
    just move on. But I just don’t feel right about it in my case.

    Again, I'm just thinking aloud which I am so prone to doing. My main purpose of responding was to thank you for everything.

  8. #128
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    My ex coworker was an INFJ, we didn't get along too well. He was always in a bad mood! I intuitively knew (I'm INFP) that he was dealing with a lot of things mentally/emotionally and he was probably overwhelmed and had a lot to sort out in his life but he would take out his negative attitude on people at work. Who wants to be around a huffy puffy grumpy person alllll of the time who constantly makes faces, rolls his eyes, and finds things to nitpick and complain about. It was sooo tiring. And then he acted like people didn't understand him and it was up to everyone else to just "get it" and to please him or to understand things the way that he did. But he held so much in that he seemed that he DIDN'T WANT anyone to understand him anyway. It was this whole superior I'm better than you attitude that wasn't pleasant to be around. But I knew it was just out of misunderstanding.... so my solution to the problem was to take it with a grain of salt and be nice to him anyway, which I believe he took as me blowing off his "prerogative" which he thought nitpicking and complaining about everything to EXTREMES served a purpose whereas I saw that nitpicking and complaining about everything AFTERRRR a certain point becomes unconstructive... and self-defeating.
    It's ok to be a perfectionist but LIFE ISN'T PERFECT... is crawling into a dark corner to piss and moan the answer? I didn't think so and he knew that (because we got into a little argument one day) and then I think he knew that I had a point which made him feel even grumpier.... and then when I was nice to him he didn't like that eitherrrrrr... stubborn! I'm not completely putting down the way this INFJ was and I can see his perspective and I can also see that he will learn and grow (he is only 20 afterall) but for the sake of personal growth and his own happiness, he could stand to be just a little more open minded sometimes. If he was just a little nicer to me and made the the littlest effort, I would have noticed and maybe this INFP (me) could've talked with him and made him feel better.

  9. #129
    Senior Member Quiet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flylittlefeather View Post
    Some people may miss the subtlety of hints, unfortunately. I still haven't figured out when is the time to be straightforward.





    How did she react when you told her about it? As an INFP (who doesn't know any), I am curious.




    This isn't always easy. I am sure there are a number of reasons for that.
    But I wish INFJs in general knew how special their qualities are. They are easy to miss at first glance, b/c INFJs tend to be humble and thought-out, so I wonder if these qualities sometimes go unheard/overlooked.




    YAY! - that's a good thing to recognize. It's perfectly okay to ask for the time and quietness you need! Not everyone will understand it, but at least you'll be taking care of yourself.

    Asking for quietness isn't any stranger than asking for rowdiness. There's nothing that makes going out and having a jolly good time more legit than having an enriching time with Amy Tan at home.
    She claimed that I was hiding from myself and was avoiding my insecurities, weaknesses and flaws. She is a very strong woman, whom imo has the ability to change and grow faster than most others. Even in her struggles, she is able to adapt and change her points of views on things and overcome obsticles that I have a hard time overcoming. She gets frustrated with me when I don't seem able to change in some ways, and for how I judge others for doing the weak things that I do. The thing that has changed for the better between us, is she has come to a place of resolution that she will allow me to just be who I am, and try not to judge me for when I don't do the things I need to do for myself that would better my life in her eyes (and she's quite right). Although at times, I still sense I frustrate her but I try and overlook it because I have known her so long and admire and respect her.

    If this sounds a bit cryptical, it's because I'm referring to a particular situation that she and I both found ourselves in within our relationships, and she is doing better with things than I am. I admire P's because they can more open minded than J's can.
    "What's Taters, Precious?" --- Gollum.

    "Bring your pretty face, to my axe". --- Gimly.

  10. #130
    Dope SunnySunflower's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
    If we can avoid conflict, we will. If we have to eat your pain plus our own while avoiding an awkward chat in which we need to answer questions that would require time to think about, we will take that route. We know the entire thing anyway and understand that an individual who opperates on the basis of Fi, will take the pain in a concentrated way. We would rather leave your questions unanswered to save you, we'll feel it for you instead because we understand, and stand from an Fe perspective.
    Quiet - this lost me a bit as well. The beginning of the post (Purple) seems to touch on the INFJs desire to avoid conflict. I'm not exactly sure what you mean by 'If we have to eat your pain plus our own" and perhaps it may just be that I'm not entirely familiar with the phrase. But if it refers to 'suffering on my behalf'...believe me...that ain't happening. Having a friend I love more than life itself cut off all communication? Oh how I wish I had someone come a take a heaping helping of this pain away. I had a friend that was killed suddenly in a car accident and in many ways - that situation was less painful.

    But in the second part (Red) - that's where I really need some assistance in understanding...because it sounds like...and forgive me if I'm incorrect...I'm being (or other individuals from the 'lesser 15') talked down to like a child.

    Please tell me that I have this all wrong...but it almost sounds like you are saying (and of course this recreation will be exaggerated in order to express my meaning)...

    We, as INFJs, know all. We know how devasted you are that we cut you out of our lives. And especially you Fi-s, I'm sure you are really taking this poorly (you guys are so emotional !!). No, no...don't ask any questions. Just accept that we know what is best for you. We are saving you really. Saving you from the painful, painful truth of how lame you are to us. For it is always best to just live the rest of your life with unanswered questions than learn the truth. Always remember, though, we are feeling your pain and we understand how difficult this is for you. Now doesn't that make it all better? Nighty, night little one.

    OKAY obviously that is NOT what you mean...right? I don't know why it kinda came across to me that way. Hopefully you can set me straight. Thank you so much Quiet.

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