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  1. #1281
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    yep, nothing says unrelated ranting like demonstrating the extension of the principles you portray in a negative light - you can tell that it's unrelated because its negative.


    your wisdom is appreciated as always
    This exchange just illustrates what I said earlier along:

    Quote Originally Posted by FLD View Post
    ENTPs like to insist that no one can leave until everything has been talked out, because that's how ENTPs win: They just bullshit until the other party gives in from exhaustion.

  2. #1282
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLD View Post
    Whatever. Now you're just ranting. And again: I don't give a rat's ass about the details of your particular situation. I was debating the principles. (See the portion of my post that you didn't quote.)

    I'll bow out. It doesn't seem like we're doing anything productive at this point, and I'm not looking to stir shit for its own sake.
    That wasn't a rant. That was about his genuine commitment to his son. Sometimes it's not just a debate. Sometimes the details do matter, especially to the people whose lives have been effected.

    And it's not a matter of bullshitting until everyone else gives in, or of winning on an internet forum.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  3. #1283
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    That wasn't a rant. That was about his genuine commitment to his son. Sometimes it's not just a debate. Sometimes the details do matter, especially to the people whose lives have been effected.
    Anyone can play the victim/martyr. Believe me, as an INFP I know how that game is played.

    I say keep the personal stuff out, at least until Mane's wife shows up and presents her side of the story as well.

  4. #1284
    Not Sexy. Not ENFP. Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLD View Post
    There's a lot of grey area at the start of a relationship, and doorslams can occur early along for trivial reasons at that point. And that's the way it should be. If it's early along in a relationship (i.e., at the dating phase), then any personality type can dump any other personality type quickly and without explanation.

    But if we're talking about a divorce or the break-up of a LTR, then doorslams don't happen trivially. No one (especially an INFJ) is going to break up a marriage for trivial reasons. If it's a divorce, then the doorslam was probably a long time coming and the INFJ has probably tried to enunciate repeatedly what the problem is.

    IOW, don't trivialize doorslams in the cases of divorces and LTRs and similar situations. Those types of doorslams are an emergency escape hatch when all other rational means have failed.
    I don't... I don't even know how to respond to this.

    Are you seriously making the claim here that after a certain amount of time has elapsed in a relationship...'grey' no longer exists. That after what...? 3, 5, 10, 15 years...the only reason a doorslam would occur would be if the INFJ in question had been exposed to bad/abusive behavior by their partner...behavior that actually occurred in the collective reality? How is this possible? After a certain amount of time INFJs become perfect? No longer subject to environmental factors? Stress. Mental illness. Addiction...

    What about ENFPs? If I doorslam someone...do the same conditions apply?

    I love the "when all other rational means have failed..." btw.
    لا تستطيع كسر المكسور

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    I don't... I don't even know how to respond to this.

    Are you seriously making the claim here that after a certain amount of time has elapsed in a relationship...'grey' no longer exists. That after what...? 3, 5, 10, 15 years...the only reason a doorslam would occur would be if the INFJ in question had been exposed to bad/abusive behavior by their partner...behavior that actually occurred in the collective reality? How is this possible? After a certain amount of time INFJs become perfect? No longer subject to environmental factors? Stress. Mental illness. Addiction...

    What about ENFPs? If I doorslam someone...do the same conditions apply?

    I love the "when all other rational means have failed..." btw.
    I merely made the claim that if an INFJ doorslams someone in a marriage, it probably means that the situation has become genuinely unlivable for them, and wasn't merely due to some trivial cause. So instead of trying to pin that INFJ down with BS obligations and force them to remain in a bad situation, be honest and address why the situation has become unlivable for them. Whoever might be at fault.

    Oh well. I said I'm out of here, and I am now.

  6. #1286
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    So my shutting my mom out of my life for exposing my children to a habitual felon against my explicit instructions means my marriage vows mean nothing to me?
    i remember i meant to ask you about this earlier, because i am not sure i even grasp what happened there:
    if your grandmother decides to not come to see your and her grandkids because you won't let her bring her boyfriend with her... isn't that her doorslamming you?
    likewise with your friend - if she decides to not be your friend just because you don't give her money and drive her around... again, wouldn't that be her doorslamming you?
    i am not entirely sure i understand at all who doorslammed who - did you not let them do shit that was their reason to go into your life, or did you not let them into your life?

    that's being said: if you made commitments to your mother and then decided that because of her boyfriend they do no longer count, and firmly believe that this is how you should treat your commitments... then yea, look - if he believed breaking your vows it doesn't count as long as long.. it doesn't count if it's on a day you had a fight, it doesn't count if its an ex, it doesn't count if it was enough miles from home... whatever... would his marriage vows still count (assuming this isn't' an open marriage)? likewise, if you treat your commitments by determining which incidents don't count on your own accord, your husband essentially has to trust not merely you to follow your vows but the universe to never provide you with reasons where breaking them doesn't count.

  7. #1287
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLD View Post
    I say keep the personal stuff out
    oh damn it! the underlining universal principle of how personal stuff works is only applicable to the non personal cases! why didn't i see that? it's the universal rule of X, just not of the X's in that universe .the depth of of FLD's teachings knows no bounds.

    Quote Originally Posted by FLD View Post
    Oh well. I said I'm out of here, and I am now.
    i shell gladly await your future wisdom.

    p.s. we're still up for the farmers market to explain to them how slavery works right? i'm trusting in your wisdom... about how if someone trusts you it only counts if until you decide to bail... oh shit. it got me again! so much more to learn.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    Sometimes the details do matter, especially to the people whose lives have been effected.
    testing to see if the universal principle is applicable to actual cases it claims to govern? blasphemous! heretic! ENTP!!!

  8. #1288
    Not Sexy. Not ENFP. Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLD View Post
    I merely made the claim that if an INFJ doorslams someone in a marriage, it probably means that the situation has become genuinely unlivable for them, and wasn't merely due to some trivial cause. So instead of trying to pin that INFJ down with BS obligations and force them to remain in a bad situation, be honest and address why the situation has become unlivable for them. Whoever might be at fault.

    Oh well. I said I'm out of here, and I am now.

    Well, you've convinced me to unchain my INFJ ex from his prison in my basement.
    لا تستطيع كسر المكسور

  9. #1289
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    i remember i meant to ask you about this earlier, because i am not sure i even grasp what happened there:
    if your grandmother decides to not come to see your and her grandkids because you won't let her bring her boyfriend with her... isn't that her doorslamming you?
    likewise with your friend - if she decides to not be your friend just because you don't give her money and drive her around... again, wouldn't that be her doorslamming you?
    i am not entirely sure i understand at all who doorslammed who - did you not let them do shit that was their reason to go into your life, or did you not let them into your life?

    that's being said: if you made commitments to your mother and then decided that because of her boyfriend they do no longer count, and firmly believe that this is how you should treat your commitments... then yea, look - if he believed breaking your vows it doesn't count as long as long.. i don't know, it doesn't count if it's on a day you had a fight, it doesn't count if its an ex, it doesn't count if it was enough miles from home... whatever... would his marriage vows still count (assuming this isn't' an open marriage)? likewise, if you treat your commitments by determining which incidents don't count on your own accord, your husband essentially has to trust not merely you to follow your vows but the universe to never provide you with reasons to where breaking them doesn't count.
    My mother found this guy at a homeless shelter. I caught him in several lies. I could not figure out what he wanted with a woman old enough to be his mother (he was a few months younger than me) who only had $800/month coming in. I was very uncomfortable around him. I didn't know him and until I knew him and felt I could trust him, I did not want him around my kids. I told my mother that I was fine with her being around them, but I didn't want my kids around him.

    She agreed to honor my wishes. She wanted to take them on an outing and I said that was okay. While they were on the outing, she brought the man around my kids. Another time, she brought him into my house when she knew I didn't want him there (she also had him in my other sibling's house when he had told her he did not want him there). She started attending my church with him when she knew I didn't want to be around him. He insisted on trying to talk to me and when I left with my kids he sent me an email saying what a bad Christian and bad daughter I was. Mom would not allow me to have a relationship with her and not him.

    She would not honor my wishes to not have him at my house. I could not get her to listen to me or to respect what I wanted for myself, my home, or my family. I had to threaten to call the police on her if she came to my house again to get her to stop. I was having frequent panic attacks. Threatening to call the police was the doorslam that finally got her to leave me alone. I tried everything else I could think of to negotiate some kind of compromise before that, but even when she agreed to my requests, she did not do what she said she would.

    My mom was in her fifties, in good health, and able to work when all this happened. I hadn't made any commitments to care for her or do anything for her when the conflict began, though she had been living in my house at the start of the mess. I did not kick her out or ask her to leave. I just didn't want that guy in my house so she chose to move out.

    My friend was having a hard time. I helped her move on several occasions because I have a minivan with seats that flatten out. Often, I would drive nearly an hour each way to do so and often, she would not have anything packed. I was there to help transport stuff and she would want me to help wrap dishes. She is a hoarder and has lots of stuff. At one point, she actually went to jail for contempt of court for two weeks because she did not get her stuff moved. After going to jail, she was still dragging her feet about packing her stuff, even though the judge told her if she did not have it moved in 30 days she would be going back to jail. I helped her move at least four times. She also frequently needed rides. She would tell me she had one errand and then expect me to take her three or four places, taking several hours.

    When she lived with me, she would leave her bra hanging in my bathroom (which I don't even do). She would leave her things lying all over my house, even though I moved my kid out of her bedroom so she would have a room of her own. My husband had to ask her for the use of his own computer when he came home from work. She was buying soda and cigarettes for this guy she had a crush on when I was paying for her car insurance and buying her food. She would call me from work saying she was ill and needed to go to the hospital (she has diabetes) then when we got to the hospital, she would talk on her cell phone for an hour in the lobby before she even went to the front desk to check in for treatment.

    We gave her a deadline of a few months after she found a job to find a place of her own, but we really had to almost force her out, removing her stuff from our house with little help from her. A few moves later is when she moved in with a mutual friend and left her medications lying around where the small children could get them. That was when I stopped taking her calls, doing things for her, unfriended her on fb, etc. She still wanted to be friends and I did not.

    I guess I felt like it was one thing to do that stuff to me, but another thing altogether to be completely unconcerned and unrepentant about endangering the lives of small children. Why would anyone want to be friends with someone who didn't care if their actions endangered the lives of small children? All she had to do was secure her medications, like, lock them in the trunk of her car or find a high shelf to put them on, but she wanted to just leave them in the living room on the coffee table. It was just kind of an epiphany to me about who she really was and I lost all respect and pity for her. I did not have an obligation to do anything for her and I had not made any commitments to her. I was just trying to be a good friend.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
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  10. #1290
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Sounds okay to me. It's probably as accurate as any of my attempts to explain using functions. Which, at my level of knowledge, doesn't mean much.

    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    I do this too...Can it be our weak Ne playing tricks on us when we are anxious, creating worst case extrapolations of events to come?
    I'm not so much into the shadow function thing, so I can't say.

    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    What actions did people around you consider to be controlling? How did you then modify your behaviour so that it would not come across as controlling? Can you give an example please?
    I was thinking about my relationships in general when I wrote that, not about any specific incident. However, it has come up with people on the forum that my natural way of conversing can come across as trying to control or lead the conversation, which was a part of what I was thinking when I wrote what's in the quote. I can now see how it can appear that I'm trying to lead the conversation in a certain direction, since I tend towards structured conversations with goals, and I've already thought through a bunch of outcomes and might have one that I think is optimal in mind. I can even now see how it not only appears that I'm trying to control the conversation, but how I AM controlling the conversation. Since it's the way I naturally communicate, I'm not yet sure how to not do this, or even how to recognize when I am doing it. Even my answer to you now is structured and goal-oriented. I waited until I had time to go back through your posts so that I could put some thought into them and answer them all at once, instead of answering them as they came up.

    Earlier today, in an attempt to modify my own tendency to wait until I had the time and then try to answer everyone at once, I went ahead and replied immediately to posts that somehow struck a chord in me, whenever I happened to be on the computer. I'm not able to shift my perception much when doing that, but I hope it's a bit more organic and not as structured.

    I can think of a lot of things that I do that make things more organized, structured and convenient for me, that might seem controlling to someone else. What got me to see this in myself was first seeing it in my ISFJ sister, when she would do things that felt controlling to me. Then I checked to see if I was doing the same things without realizing it, and I was. To me, it seems reasonable and logical to structure things a certain way, but that doesn't automatically mean that my way is reasonable and logical for everyone. To some it may feel controlling instead. If you want a more specific example of this, I'll try to think of one.

    I also suggested this earlier, any further thoughts are welcome:
    Originally Posted by yeghor
    Oops. Just noticed that I pulled your original post and already answered this above.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

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