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  1. #1271
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    that is amazing insight. my life has changed.
    I'm just giving you the bottom line. When things go to hell (as in the case of a divorce or the break-up of a LTR), all you can really count on is the bottom line. Don't try to insist that you're owed more that that. You're wasting your breath.

  2. #1272
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    nope. i really don't think you are obligated to not doorslam people. i just don't think any obligation you do claim to have is worth anything when you do.
    So my shutting my mom out of my life for exposing my children to a habitual felon against my explicit instructions means my marriage vows mean nothing to me?
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  3. #1273
    Not Sexy. Not ENFP. Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLD View Post
    Thanks for your nice comments!

    Of course, hero.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    that is amazing insight. my life has changed.

    Mine too. That was internet gold.

    For fun, let's quickly review what we've learned...

    All doorslams are caused by the bad behavior of the person that gets doorslammed.
    ENXPs have no soul.
    Everyone should be judged on their post doorslam behavior because, PTSD aside, it's very telling.
    There's no grey areas in life.

    Mane, I'm heading out to my first Assholes Anonymous meeting...wanna join?
    لا تستطيع كسر المكسور

  4. #1274
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLD View Post
    I'm just giving you the bottom line. When things go to hell (as in the case of a divorce or the break-up of a LTR), all you can really count on is the bottom line. Don't try to insist that you're owed more that that. You're wasting your breath.
    oh i fucking love it! so i can ask people to put their trust in me making any mutal commitment i want let them do for me whatever on the basis of that trust and still not owe anyone shit. how did i ever conduct personal relationships without your wisdom to guide me? it's about time i started throwing people off the boat i got with them - especially those complaining i am throwing people off the boat, i mean telling me that to my face? that's just being malicious and hurtful. wo now i am free! but man that's just personal relations... store owners keep giving me stuff because they assume i am going to pay.. and then i do, can you believe what a sucker i've being? landlords even! bottom line taking my money feels fucking crappy. all this time do you realize how much money and energy i wasted before you on entitled crappy people thinking that just because i communicate to them that they can trust me with something i also meant i owe them something? i was blind man. how did i live without your shining light? give me more pearls of wisdom! show me your way!

    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    Mane, I'm heading out to my first Assholes Anonymous meeting...wanna join?
    only if FLD is there to guide us.

  5. #1275
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    There's no grey areas in life.
    There's a lot of grey area at the start of a relationship, and doorslams can occur early along for trivial reasons at that point. And that's the way it should be. If it's early along in a relationship (i.e., at the dating phase), then any personality type can dump any other personality type quickly and without explanation.

    But if we're talking about a divorce or the break-up of a LTR, then doorslams don't happen trivially. No one (especially an INFJ) is going to break up a marriage for trivial reasons. If it's a divorce, then the doorslam was probably a long time coming and the INFJ has probably tried to enunciate repeatedly what the problem is.

    IOW, don't trivialize doorslams in the cases of divorces and LTRs and similar situations. Those types of doorslams are an emergency escape hatch when all other rational means have failed.

  6. #1276
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    oh i fucking love it! so i can ask people to put their trust in me making any mutal commitment i want let them do for me whatever on the basis of that trust and still not owe anyone shit. how did i ever conduct personal relationships without your wisdom to guide me? it's about time i started throwing people off the boat i got with them - especially those complaining i am throwing people off the boat, i mean telling me that to my face? that's just being malicious and hurtful. wo now i am free! but man that's just personal relations... store owners keep giving me stuff because they assume i am going to pay.. and then i do, can you believe what a sucker i've being? landlords even! bottom line taking my money feels fucking crappy. all this time do you realize how much money and energy i wasted before you on entitled crappy people thinking that just because i communicate to them that they can trust me with something i also meant i owe them something? i was blind man. how did i live without your shining light? give me more pearls of wisdom! show me your way! […]
    A relationship commitment isn't slavery. People bail when things get unbearable. And they should--it's the right thing to do, rather than stick around and put up with increasing levels of hostility or abuse or whatever's making the relationship so unbearable for them in the first place. Not judging you personally; I'm just saying that there comes a time for any sane person to bail. And at that point, it's gotten to "the bottom line," so quit suddenly pointing to further obligations; just recognize that the situation has become unlivable for the other party.

  7. #1277
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    Looking at how I go about my life, but in particular, my relationships, I do see how I tend to try to control the outcome of things as much as possible, without always realizing it. I have a particular outcome in mind--mostly keeping things running smoothly--and I try to optimize for that. But in doing that, I'm unconsciously/subconsciously/consciously making other people into puppets in my play. I'm not giving them any real say because I'm always working towards the outcome I want--not wanting to deal with the messiness of real life, or real people. Not taking into consideration that others might enjoy dealing with the messiness.

    And before anyone starts with the "yeah, but's", I'm not saying that I shouldn't ever do things my way. Sometimes my way works pretty well.* It's just that when I'm not aware that I'm doing this, I'm not open to even CONSIDERING that there might be another way and that that way has just as much merit and validity as mine does. Also, I need to own the fact that I can be controlling in this way, so that if other people try to tell me that I'm doing something they consider controlling, I can at least see how that can be. Then, if I go ahead with doing it my way, it's my choice and not their fault.

    ETA: *And I find, that my way in CONJUNCTION with other ways, actually ends up working much better than my way alone.
    Here's the thing (from my angle): I agree with this completely.

    But I tend to mirror people. I only really ever end up feeling the need to 'control' where someone else is already ahead of me in that regard. Around people who are judgmental and controlling- even if their self image is that of a totally laid back, nonjudgmental person who thinks they live by 'each to his own' precepts....I don't mirror how people prefer others see them, I generally really do mirror what people actually are. And the first paragraph up there^ about clamping down and leaving no room for someone else to have any real say- that's totally how I get around people who have some need to control the shared reality between us. This is true to the extent that I have to actually avoid/write off certain people because interacting with them turns me into something I don't like.

    But people who are laid back and who actually are fair-minded and easy going (and who don't need to control any single thing about my perception or my judgment, who genuinely ARE laid back and nonjudgmental)....I mirror that too. For me, experiential data collects about people- not of the image they want me to have of them, but of how they ACTUALLY treat people- and that's what I hand back. People who want to control anything about my judgment/perception get locked out; people who let me have my judgment (which is to say, even if I'm wrong- no skin off their nose, they just let me experience *wrongness* without feeling threatened by it- the truth always eventually surfaces so there's no need to control it) are almost never perceived as a threat.

    There's something about this "INFJs lock people out where there's a truth they don't want to see" business is.....being strangely emphasized right now. Yeah, sometimes it's true. Is it- statistically speaking- true more often than when INFJs lock people out because those people are being controlling (usually without beginning to realize it)? I have no idea. I do know that I actually like getting constructive criticism- and I can't help that I notice when it looks like criticism *might be* actually serving some other (ego/defense mechanism) function for the person offering it (again, often without them knowing it). The strange, almost desperate need in this thread for INFJs to 'get it' is making the whole thing smell bad. If it's the truth, then it'll still be true later right?

    tl;dr: I agree with what you've said, I just find it nearly impossible to give this kind of leeway to people who demonstrate any need to be the 'puppetmaster' themselves. I just don't see "growth" on the other side of that. It looks more like 'enabling' to me than 'growth'.
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  8. #1278
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLD View Post
    A relationship commitment isn't slavery.
    that's fucking brilliant! can you be there next time i go get groceries? better yet - let's go to the farmers market! i want to make sure they understand that their expectation of getting money i find so unbearable to pay after i take what they work for.. is expecting me to be their slave, that's how nonconsensual free labor works, it's not like it's slavery or something. but why walk around the bush? why weren't you here to explain to blind old balancefind when after crappily sharing everything he worked for with his friend in need and trusting her with it and then believing she isn't entitled to just take it all and lock it out for some silly reason of communicating he can trust her?
    but that's just money right? the real shame is.. why weren't you there to tell my son when he was 6 that his trust that the people who would always be there for him to never abandon him was freaking enslavement. all i needed was for the wise and great FLD to be there and i would never have had how for months he never stopped looking for me and how "she finally got him to stop". jeez, can't he get that parenting was just a commitment? it ain't no slavery or anything!

    please share more of your wisdom sensei! i just don't feel enlightened enough yet!

    teach me more about how everyone who ever acted worked and taken some of the biggest emotional risks possible for them and their loved ones and invested and dedicated themselves and changed their lives for me on the basis of trusting me and then thinking i am responsible for the consequances of trusting me in anyway at all! show me how i can break anyone's trust in me and still be perfectly trustworthy in the same time! shine your light upon me! shine the bottom line!

  9. #1279
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    that's fucking brilliant! can you be there next time i go get groceries? better yet - let's go to the farmers market! i want to make sure they understand that their expectation of getting money i find so unbearable to pay after i take what they work for.. is expecting me to be their slave, that's how nonconsensual free labor works, it's not like it's slavery or something. but why walk around the bush? why weren't you here to explain to blind old balancefind when after crappily sharing everything he worked for with his friend in need and trusting her with it and then believing she isn't entitled to just take it all and lock it out for some silly reason of communicating he can trust her?
    but that's just money right? the real shame is.. why weren't you there to tell my son when he was 6 that his trust that the people who would always be there for him to never abandon him was freaking enslavement. all i needed was for the wise and great FLD to be there and i would never have had how for months he never stopped looking for me and how "she finally got him to stop". jeez, can't he get that parenting was just a commitment? it ain't no slavery or anything!

    share more of your wisdom sensei! i just don't feel enlightened enough yet!
    Whatever. Now you're just ranting. And again: I don't give a rat's ass about the details of your particular situation. I was debating the principles. (See the portion of my post that you didn't quote.)

    I'll bow out. It doesn't seem like we're doing anything productive at this point, and I'm not looking to stir shit for its own sake.

  10. #1280
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLD View Post
    Whatever. Now you're just ranting. And again: I don't give a rat's ass about the details of your particular situation. I was debating the principles. (See the portion of my post that you didn't quote.)

    yep, nothing says unrelated ranting like demonstrating the extension of the principles you portray in a negative light - you can tell that it's unrelated because its negative.

    Quote Originally Posted by FLD View Post
    I'll bow out. It doesn't seem like we're doing anything productive at this point, and I'm not looking to stir shit for its own sake.
    your wisdom is appreciated as always

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