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  1. #1221
    A window to the soul
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    I'm struggling to find the love in here. It's he did this and she did that and I want this and I needy need that. What happened to, "ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country?"

  2. #1222

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    I'm struggling to find the love in here. It's he did this and she did that and I want this and I needy need that. What happened to, "ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country?"

  3. #1223

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    *snip*

  4. #1224

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    ...when in stress, an INFJ may often see threats in the relationship, that may be grains of sand, but which the INFJ will hyperbolize into mountain ranges. this happens with both INFJs and INTJs. in stress, all INxJs can get stuck in the grip of their inferior extroverted sensing, which Roger Pierman in "i'm not crazy i'm just not you",describes in the following terms:

    "extroverted sensing has the natural strength of collecting evidence from the environment - people, things and places. the fluid experience of information enables those using extroverted sensing to describe experiences well. but in its compensatory form, extroverted sensing leads to incorrect deductions from a single fact, at times a simple smell can lead to the catastrophic conclusion that a relationship is over. there is no step-by-step logic leading to the conclusion; it is as if the conclusion already existed and merely required the observation of a random fact to allow it to be arrived at."

    ordinarily very good at connection observations to illuminate deeper meaning, when stressed it may be very difficult to get an INFJ to reexamine their trusted insight, as they may simply find new random facts to validate their perspective.
    When I am irritated/stressed, especially by someone, any further input coming from that person at the moment enrages me and I sometimes cannot hold it back and lash out through Fe mostly by verbally passing moral judgment on that person in an angry fashion...like "you are a liar, dishonest, two-faced etc. person"...I think the Se thing is more about this...Most of the time, that lashing out discharges my rage (pent-up bad energy) and I immediately feel guilty if I see that the Fe arrow found its mark and feel drained afterwards, and then apologize...If the other person admits to employing and enjoying lying, dishonesty, manipulation etc. without remorse, it infuriates/stresses me even more...this^ is more about "anger"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy
    ...I do this a lot. Imagine responses and plan for them. And since there's not much reason to plan for the best, I tend to go for the worst. And then I feel dread.
    The thing Eilonwy mentioned and that I identify with is not about an immediate/present circumstance/input but more about a dreaded event (confrontation) that will happen in the future that I obsess/fear that will end up in the worst possible fashion...that's why I suggested it may be caused by our shadow Ne...this^ is more about "fear"...

  5. #1225

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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I am under the impression that Fi caters/indulges to self more than to others and operates based on (internal/personal) regulations that put more weight on (wellbeing/peace of) the self/individual (in my example 1 pedestrian).....Whereas Fe caters/indulges to others more than to self and operates on (again internal/personal) regulations that put less weight on the individual but more (dependent) on the (wellbeing/peace of) group/colelctive (in my example 30 drivers + 1 pedestrian)...That's why that example came up to my mind in regards to Fi-Fe dichotomy and how a Fe user might invalidate a Fi user...Does that, do you think, also mean Fe users wrt a Fi user are more susceptible to peer pressure or being shunned by other people therefore they have a higher desire to bend over to please others?

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I am guilty of that...I do that when I "feel" that the other party cannot or does not want to acknowledge certain valid points (parameters) of the topic that need to be conceded/defined before the discussion (from my perspective) can move forward...Otherwise, it feels to me that they are deliberately beating around the bush...that's what I meant by "oil wrestling" in an earlier post...

    My elder sister is an ENFP I believe...I observe this tendency in her to not commit herself to any certain decision...In communication she sometimes use vague terms on some outstanding issues so that she can claim she did not mean X but Y in case she finds herself not happy with X interpretation of her words and Y interpretation puts herself in a more favourable/adventageous position (makes her more happy with herself) when the issue comes to fruition...

    That feels to me as if she does not want to trap herself in a box by defining the boundaries too rigidly and leaves herself an escape route/hatch just in case things does not turn out the way she wants them to be...The box does not give herself enough manevouring space so as to allow her to shift her perspective to a more favourable one...I can see this tendency in my ENTP friend as well...when he feels that he is about to lose an argument he either shifts to an alternate reality/perspective that he feels casts him in a more positive light (so that he can sooth his fears of being wrong) or if he cannot, he tries detracting me through pushing my buttons...So I believe Ne-users can surf/flow on multiple realities/perspectives and may use perspective shifting to evade facing certain undesirable realities/circumstances...That, I believe, is their escape hatch...

    This, I think, is analogous to what Z Buck meant with shapeshifting logic (describing the unhealthy use/wielding of it) in belowgiven quote:

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate
    In that sense Ne-users feel to me like they are constantly and rapidly phasing in and out of multiple dimensions so that their core will not materialize in one place...I believe Ni-users are forcing certain reality/singularity on Ne by asking questions aimed to box the issue at hand, which also forces Ne-user to trap himself/herself and his/her options into a definite boundary with no means of escape...The problem here is Ni is all about finding singularity out of many possible options...

    Is Ni-user a person who locked himself/herself in a strong fortress/box whereas a Ne-user is like a person who cannot force himself/herself to stabilize to one form? Is a trusted Ni fortress a safehaven where Ne user can stop shifting and reveal his/her true/core self? Is a trusted Ne user is window/scrying pool for a Ni-user to safely observe/view alternate dimensions?

    In any case, this constant perspective shifting, if unhealthily wielded, may serve as a tool to keep re-defining outstanding issues/grievances forcing them into a deadlock...So there needs to come a time that any pending issue needs to be framed "at least roughly" so people can get over with it and toss it aside...The questions Ni-users are asking are aimed at pinning Ne-user down in a way...I believe it requires a certain (in)flexibility of perspective on both sides to find a common ground...

    Also, as a sidenote, INFJs' escape route/hatch out of the box/fortress they locked themselves in (or forcing the other party out of the fortress), OTOH, may infact be resorting to doorslam or being more vigilant about the visitors allowed inside the fortress...The singular nature of Ni I believe forces me to a binary mode in interactions, namely ON and OFF...There are no intermediate settings, which puzzles my ENTP friend, who admits to having multiple intermediate settings of intimacy in terms relationships...So he can better regulate his interactions with other people whereas mine boils down to ON and OFF...which makes him much more popular with other people...

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    The bolded part immediately brought to my mind covert tactics like passive aggressiveness, emotional manipulation (playing on people's triggers?) etc...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    So, disarm = not trigger/push their buttons? Is this what @PeaceBaby meant with sidestepping people?

    So when you hear INFJs complain about the people they doorslammed in their lives, does that make you frustrated cause that means INFJs are not aware that they have not learnt how not to trigger the other person's buttons/insecurities (not learnt their language?)? Based on that, do you mean INFJs, by not trying to learn the other's language, are unable to see their part in the miscommunication and preventing themselves from further growth? That they are somehow demonizing the other party by not acknowledging that the other's language (though different from that of INFJs) also deserves recognition and a right to exist? What should the non-INFJ do then to not trigger INFJs buttons/insecurities?

    On another note, (how) do you modify/heal certain triggers of people you encounter that you think may cause harm to the individual himself or to others (to the collective)?

    I guess it all somehow boils down to individuality versus collectivity and singularity versus multiplicity...

  6. #1226
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    question (to all):
    to what extent the unwavering nature of the doorslam relies on the belief you'd never have to face the person you doorslammed?

  7. #1227
    Senior Member Winds of Thor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    question (to all):
    to what extent the unwavering nature of the doorslam relies on the belief you'd never have to face the person you doorslammed?
    Interesting point. Gives rise to the fact INFJs, as observed, will swirl around issues and perhaps conjecture but refuse to put their cards on the table accountably like everybody else when it comes to pitching in to understand.
    "..And the eight and final rule: If this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight."
    'Men are meant to be with women. The rest is perversion and mental illness.'

  8. #1228
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    question (to all):
    to what extent the unwavering nature of the doorslam relies on the belief you'd never have to face the person you doorslammed?
    Quote Originally Posted by Winds of Thor View Post
    Interesting point. Gives rise to the fact INFJs, as observed, will swirl around issues and perhaps conjecture but refuse to put their cards on the table accountably like everybody else when it comes to pitching in to understand.
    There's no obligation that says people have to provide a full accounting before they're allowed to bail on a relationship. You're creating an obligation out of thin air.

    Usually the opposite is true. People keep trying to provide a last big accounting and get in the last word, and it just keeps turning into one more argument. Most people stay in a relationship way too long, just arguing all the time. When things turn south, the healthy thing is to pull the plug on the relationship: Sooner or later, one party or the other has to just shut the hell up and leave.

    ENTPs like to insist that no one can leave until everything has been talked out, because that's how ENTPs win: They just bullshit until the other party gives in from exhaustion.

    Here's a rule for you: If you don't want someone to bail on you, then don't treat them like crap.

  9. #1229
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winds of Thor View Post
    Interesting point. Gives rise to the fact INFJs, as observed, will swirl around issues and perhaps conjecture but refuse to put their cards on the table accountably like everybody else when it comes to pitching in to understand.
    At this point in what I'm calling my introspection, I do see the swirling around issues. I see it to different degrees in the different people posting in this thread. I think it comes from the way we're wired to learn (unfortunately), because I see the same honing in process when I'm trying to grasp a concept. I think there is a way past the sticking point. For me, that meant analyzing myself instead of "the problem". I ended up being hyper-aware of how I was reacting to real and imagined situations, then picking apart what was actually driving my thoughts and emotions. Sometimes what I was doing had to be pointed out to me, then, instead of looking for a justification, I would stop and analyze what I had just done. The emotional work can be disrupting in real life, and can be unpleasant, so I think that is why there is such a reluctance to even go there. But I found it all worth it.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  10. #1230
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    question (to all):
    to what extent the unwavering nature of the doorslam relies on the belief you'd never have to face the person you doorslammed?
    Well, doorslam = make it go away forever, so ... I'd say the correlation between doorslam and believing you'll never have to face the person you doorslammed is about 100%. I would phrase it as "see" the person you doorslammed, though, not "face," because "face" indicates there is something you're running away from, something you can't face. Doorslam for me is not that I'm trying to escape something I don't want to face, it's that I'm trying to get rid of a nuisance that won't leave me alone. So the fear, if there is any, should be more on their side than mine, of us running into each other again.

    I don't know if this example will help, but I offer it just in case -- I just had to doorslam a guy at work. Last year, he and I had a flirtation. He worked late and so did I, and he would come to my desk and flirt, and one thing led to another -- but then it turns out he lives with someone, big surprise to me, and she got suspicious, and he became terrified of the consequences she laid out for him if her suspicions were true, and he abruptly broke up with me, which I was fine with when I learned the reason. The problem is that he then started spending at least an hour a day talking to the woman who sits next to me at work, so he was constantly in my presence. He doesn't work on the same floor of the building and has no business on the floor I work on, and I asked him please to stop coming to my area because it distressed me, and he was defiant. I felt trapped and harassed and there was nothing I could do.

    Fast forward to me being out for 4 months on short-term disability, and finding myself dreading seeing him on the day I returned to work, a little sick to my stomach with dread, hoping he had stopped this habit, and finding out once I got to my desk that he had not -- he stood at my desk and talked in a loud voice so everyone on the hall could hear about the fact that he didn't have my phone number anymore or he would have called, to which all I could do was sit there and blink -- my phone number has not changed in many years -- the reason he doesn't have it anymore is that he deleted it from his phone when his girlfriend became suspicious -- we haven't talked on the phone or had any kind of conversation in a year, so I would not expect a phone call from him ever -- he said "Oh, and you're going to blame that on me, hahahaha" -- again, I couldn't think of anything to say -- he follows up with "So you're all right now, everything's ok?" to which I said yes, thanks, and he left. After having let the entire hall know that at some point I gave him my phone number and implying we have some sort of relationship existing outside work, because my phone number is stated as unlisted in the company directory and the only way he would ever have it is for me to have given it to him, and there is no business reason why he would ever need it. So he compromised me. And this is one year almost to the day since we have had any personal contact of any kind, on the phone or otherwise.

    So I sent him an email entitled "Formal Notice" and said I wanted him to keep his communications with me work related and I wanted him to stay away from the area where I work, as I have previously asked him to, and that if he didn't, I would next be making these requests to him in the presence of the Human Resources Director.

    I hope I never see him again. It's possible I may see him in the cafeteria from time to time, or in an elevator, or passing in a hallway, but I can tolerate that as long as he leaves me alone. I still have a little bit of tension in my stomach about him, but hopefully over time it will fade and I will feel good about my workplace again.

    So yeah, doorslam = leave. me. alone. And the reason he needs to be doorslammed is so that I don't stand up and say at the top of my lungs, "The reason you don't have my phone number anymore is that your girlfriend threatened not to let you drive her car anymore if you played around on her, I'm pretty sure that was the case, wasn't it? and to kick you out, and you can't afford your own place by yourself?" thereby embarrassing and humiliating him. I will if I have to, but if he stays away from me, I won't have to.

    I do this on facebook -- I realize it's not quite the same thing, but the way people react sometimes, you'd think it was -- if someone works my nerves for long enough, I block them. OMG, you'd think I'd run over their dog. The thing is, before my illness was discovered, if I was hypomanic, they were in for a real tongue-lashing. If they were heavy posters in groups I was in and their every post set my teeth on edge, it was much better if I blocked them than if I took a chance on losing control and displaying my irritation.

    My point being, sometimes it's best to just accept that someone doesn't want you around. Sometimes you really are better off that way, and they are doing it to spare you further pain. My request to him that he be a gentleman and spare me had no effect, because he was more interested in showing me who's boss, and he assumed that because I'm quiet and kind, I don't have what it takes to force him -- but I do. I just didn't want to go there.

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