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  1. #1201
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    I'm also pretty sure that the INFJ thought process comes in handy for something. We do have some value, you know. We just need to be aware of those blind spots. Everyone has them, just in different areas.


    ETA: And it's kind of hard to own it unless we're aware of it. Part of what I was trying to say about owning our choices.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  2. #1202
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    I was thinking about all the ways what I posted above could be misconstrued. Here we go!

    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    My assumptions:

    1) Fi-doms operate on a currency of emotions exchanged in relationships:

    You make me feel good you are a friend...I'll scan your emotional landscape and make you feel good in return in my presence...OTOH, you make me feel bad (regardless of whether you intented it or not?) I'll feel entitled (justified/fair) to ask you to sooth my feelings/make reparations or if you don't, I'll feel justified to make you feel bad (using the scanned emotional landscape data) even if you are a friend...? Hence, INFPs do not put emphasis on intentions of the other but the resultant effect of the other's actions regardless of external circumstances/rules/ regulations/frameworks? So if the other indirectly/unintentionally makes INFPs feel bad about themselves that still (i.e. when healthier methods fail) gives INFPs a casus-belli to intentionally inflict hurt on the other (and feel no remorse)?
    Reading that, if my eyebrows could have lifted off my face independently they would have launched into space!

    Just no, omg no. How can I even correct that, when it's not how I feel I operate? Fi isn't about currency exchange. It's about me living up to a principle of what friendship means.

    2) Assuming #1 is "roughly" correct; From INFPs' perspective, when INFJs (or anyone else) doorslam/dump someone without due process of exchanging feelings (or salvos?) non-INFJs are accrued/inflicted a hurt/bad feeling but INFJs are not (they get away with it?), which causes an imbalance in feelings exchanged, which is unfair to the non-INFJ?

    Is this "roughly" the core of the problem with the delivery method of the doorslam?
    No, sort of but not really - the problem with your scenarios is they are so generic I cannot possibly answer. I'll try to think about why I feel that way. But ultimately, from a strictly utilitarian perspective, if an INFJ wants to "make it look good" like they want to assist healing, they could listen in a neutral setting or with a 3rd party present without changing their position or BELIEVING that someone is trying to change their position. People just need to vent, eh?

    So INFPs here on the thread are not questioning INFJs' right to resort to doorslam end the relationship but their (INFJs') right (or rather lack thereof) to inflict unilateral hurt and not giving non-INFJs a chance to somehow discharge that bad feeling/energy/hurt (grieving process)?
    Of course an INFJ can doorslam if they want to. It's their prerogative, and I no more control that than any other human reaction outside of myself.

    Try this on for size - this isn't an example from my own life at all, just a way to try to describe how some doorslams are perceived:

    It's like we went out to dinner at a nice restaurant, we ordered wine and you seemed happy. We enjoyed appetizers, the entrees came and you weren't 100% happy with how your steak was cooked but still you seemed to enjoy it and didn't want to send it back to the kitchen. We were laughing, talking, there was flow and even though every tiny element wasn't perfect (you also noted that your dessert came with the wrong sauce but still you didn't want to send it back when I asked) ... even though every tiny element wasn't perfect, we were enjoying things and working out the bugs, not sweating the small stuff. The evening seemed overall quite lovely. You were smiling when you excused yourself to the restroom. BUT THEN YOU DIDN'T COME BACK! You scooted out the back door, leaving me alone with no car, questions, pain, your insincerity and to top it all off, the bill!

    SOME doorslams are like this. Not ALL of course ... there are as many scenarios that play out to a doorslam as leaves on a tree. Some involve varieties of abuse, some involve narcissistic behaviour, some involve power dynamics and the list goes on and on, with patterns amongst these unique situations too numerous to paint out here.

    THESE kind of "dinner doorslams" I think are the ones that leave the recipients bewildered. I mean, read Mane's posts, BalanceFind's posts. They are BEWILDERED. In any relationship, communication has NOT been happening if the doorslam recipient has NO CLUE why what happened happened. And then, like salt on a wound, the INFJ may say, "He/she forced me to this point. I had to distance myself because he was so unhealthy. He has mental health issues. I will never let him near me again." I mean, really?

    OF COURSE other types distance themselves. OF COURSE all types may doorslam. But I see a pattern for INFJ's quite unique, and that's what we are exploring. This tendency for the type who sees themselves as so understanding to others does a 360 and basically shuts others out, blaming them wholly for the problems that arise.

    (eta: it's not "You + Me = Problem", sometimes it seems like "You = Problem".)

    It's a value mismatch, and perhaps that's what's gets my attention.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  3. #1203
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    To try to tie it all in, it's possible that the complaints against certain INFJ thought processes (and blind spots) are valid. It doesn't mean that we can "fix" our thought processes, because we likely can't, but we can at least work around them in a way that is fair to both parties. But first we have to be aware of it. I think the people in this thread have been asking only for the awareness.
    That's exactly right.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  4. #1204
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Perhaps this may serve as a simple example...A friend (X) tells me this story: there's this traffic light with a button for pedestrians to stop the traffic on a busy two way mainroad with a centre strip...X presses the button, cars stop...X crosses the road in a slow pace and reaches the centre strip even though X does not have any disabilities and might have crossed the road completely in one go if X increased pace...The traffic resumes again and then X stops the traffic once more to cross the other half of the road...A police officer nearby berates X for doing that on a busy road...X complains to me about this and I tell X that although X has a right to do that, X could have taken other people in the cars into consideration as well and could have increased pace so that like 20-30 more people wouldn't have to wait just for one person...X believes X can walk at whatever pace X wants and X cannot be forced to take external factors into consideration...

    My comment to X for instance I believe invalidated X's feelings...and perhaps police officer's comment made X feel like being controlled/dictated? I, OTOH, do not want to have to lie to (or enable) a friend...I suck at soothing btw (I think Fi dom/aux are much better at it)...Is this what you mean by invalidation? I need you to give me a simple concrete/literal example where you were doorslammed and felt invalidated so that I can grasp it...

    I am asking these questions so I can solidly see the issue...
    OK let me try to answer this.

    1.) Perhaps they were not at the crosswalk when the light first turned and this impaired their ability to cross in time.
    2.) Perhaps they have an injury they do not wish to reveal to you that impairs their ability to walk quickly.
    3.) Perhaps they lack a good ability to gauge what speed is necessary to cross the intersection.
    4.) Perhaps this was their first time at this intersection and did not know how long the light would last.
    5.) Perhaps the intersection has time of day timing, meaning that the lights turn green to red more quickly in the afternoon than the morning.
    6.) Perhaps they just felt tired that day, or sick that day, or were daydreaming a bit ...

    This is where intent matters to me. Was it their intention to slow traffic? Were they irresponsibly lollygaggling in the street? What were the circumstances?

    Just because the laconic retort you receive is "believes X can walk at whatever pace X wants and X cannot be forced to take external factors into consideration..." does not mean that this is what they truly believe. It's just an easier way to try to shut you up and not feel like they have to justify every variable of their life with you so you listen to them and think their emotion of the moment is justified.

    Are Fi-doms engaged in collecting and adding other people's emotional landscapes (patterns) into their repertoire like a Ti-dom would collect ideas or a Ni-dom would collect underlying patterns in human interactions? What purpose do those collections serve in a Fi-doms life? Does Fi repertoire try to build essential templates of human psyche with its strengths and weaknesses? And the Fi-dom adjusts his/her actions towards people wrt those templates? Do they serve a way for Fi-dom to navigate without stepping on other people's toes, to chart their course? What does the template tell a Fi-dom when he/she encounters another person? Does it tell him/her that this person is template Y, approach the person in this manner so that all can be well? So that the person can be disarmed?
    I create Fi models, yes. First though:

    Is there something wrong with the INFJ template? That it does not give accurate readings?
    Create the Ni template for me so I can compare the two for you.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  5. #1205
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    The way I had interpreted @Mane, I didn't think he was asking about the dinner door slam, so much as an INFJ response to someone close to them pointing out something negative about themselves and them doorslamming as a way to avoid facing criticism or reflection. (I may be wrong - if I am, please clarify, Mane.)

    I have found it easier to follow the discussion since he explained that he was not referring to distancing oneself from a relationship that is not appropriate to continue. Neither was he saying that every INFJ habitually behaves in this regard. He did however, want to explore the territory that overlapped between INFJness and this kind of behaviour and discuss whether or not a younger INFJ is ever likely to be able to reflect enough to make discussion possible in the event that the INFJ is confronted with negative aspects of themselves.

    A lot of my frustration earlier in the thread stemmed from what I believed was the implication that any INFJ's choice to distance oneself from someone else is always a method of avoiding facing the truth about oneself. Now that Mane has made that distinction, it changes the discussion for me.

    What muddies the waters is that there are many other circumstances where contact ends up being cut off (some for good reasons and some for bad). Each different person in the discussion has a slightly different focus of what kind of doorslam they are referencing, due to their own experiences, as well as the way in which they experience the world through the functions they operate with.

  6. #1206
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    One of the reasons my time in the north was so memorable was that it was the first time my frustration was so constant and unworkable that I really had to fight some things out. In every case it ended up being a positive thing, although dealing with it that way wouldn't have been my first choice.
    Every positive change to myself in my life has come about with a lot of discomfort. I also tend to turn this around and try to not cause discomfort to others because I hate it so much myself. But in doing that, I rob them of the chance to possibly change for the better, too. This is still one of my struggles, because causing discomfort to others causes me discomfort also. This is why I figured I would suck at raising kids. I'm a horrible disciplinarian. I get the theory, but I still have trouble putting it into practice. I've been taking baby steps trying to change this about myself, but I figure at least they are steps.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  7. #1207
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    I don't think Mane's reports of his ex's behavior have anything whatsoever to do with the INFJs on this board. We're only hearing his side. We have no idea if she's even an INFJ. And seeing the reasons Mane gives for wanting to explore this territory that overlaps between INFJness and this behavior makes me think his time would be better spent trying to figure out stuff about his own behavior that led to the break-up.

    INFJs tend not to speak up the first, second, or even third time something bothers them -- they have to sit with it and make sure their speaking up is warranted. The problem is, by the time they do speak up, the other person has become comfortable with what they're doing, and besides, the INFJ speaking up is generally some very mild "Gosh, I wish you wouldn't" sort of comment that is often waived away. Over time, this stuff begins to snowball, and it can lead to what the other person might term a doorslam, when in fact the INFJ several times mentioned their unhappiness with certain aspects of the relationship, but nothing changed.

    So one suggestion is if your partner is unhappy with something, either stop it or negotiate some middle ground that your partner can fully agree on -- don't agree to stop it and then keep doing it. This creates all sorts of bad impressions, the least of which is that talking doesn't mean anything to you.

  8. #1208
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    @fidelia: think of the gestalt of the "dinner doorslam", I'm going for how that feels rather than solely what that says. It essentially is an interruption and irrevocable departure from a previously established routine and says, "Things were going along and weren't perfect, but when things weren't right we talked about it, at least I thought we did. Until the day it ended. And there was no going back." Part of the shock is that the old pattern is shattered too?

    At any rate, I appreciate that Mane's framework above is helpful.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  9. #1209
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Here's another consideration, actually backwards reasoning, to try to connect doorslamming to the INFJ type. I think both INFJ and ISFJ are introverts that get more involved in their relationships, and so people start having expectations that they don't have from more distant Fi's and T introverts. When the Fe-aux types actually do pull away, everyone is more shocked by the contrast to their expectations, whereas the INFP or INTJ, etc. are just distant in a way that no one questions.

    Also, really dominant types can control their social situations overtly and don't need to retreat to fix things. I know plenty of INFJ or ISFJ who are too accommodating to the people in their life, so when they withdraw, people are like, "Hey, get back here doormat, I'm not done stomping on you! What a horrible person you are to doorslam me! How victimized I am by you because you used to be nice and look how horrible you are to focus on yourself".

    Oh for shame! The big, horrible INFJ doorslam.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality

  10. #1210
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    If you feel invalidated nearly every time in a given interaction, it's only reasonable you will look for ways to fix that. You can avoid or you can confront, or you can decide it's all funny and fine, but to escape the bad feeling, you have to do something. Depends on your style, depends on how much energy you have to give to that particular facet of your present existence. It sounds like getting them to stop pouring you Pepsis you don't want took quite some effort, and that's a small thing. I imagine the Pepsi is just the tip of the iceberg. So it's no wonder you're asking to be excused.
    But I'm not asking for the break because of their behavior in this case. I'm asking because I need the break. I wasn't paying attention during the holidays, and both my mom and I got wiped out. I need a break from the routine.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

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