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Thread: When an INFJ doorslams you / cuts you out of their life / breaks off contact

  1. #1191
    Away with the fairies Array Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    I have theory about how INFPs here see the problem in the act of doorslamming so please feel free to chime in...

    My assumptions:

    1) Fi-doms operate on a currency of emotions exchanged in relationships:

    You make me feel good you are a friend...I'll scan your emotional landscape and make you feel good in return in my presence...OTOH, you make me feel bad (regardless of whether you intented it or not?) I'll feel entitled (justified/fair) to ask you to sooth my feelings/make reparations or if you don't make you feel bad (using the scanned emotional landscape data) even if you are a friend...? Hence, INFPs do not put emphasis on intentions of the other but the resultant effect of the other's actions regardless of external circumstances/rules/ regulations/frameworks? So if the other indirectly/unintentionally makes INFPs feel bad about themselves that still (i.e. when healthier methods fail) gives INFPs a casus-belli to intentionally inflict hurt on the other (and feel no remorse)?

    2) Assuming #1 is "roughly" correct; From INFPs' perspective, when INFJs (or anyone else) doorslam/dump someone without due process of exchanging feelings (or salvos?) non-INFJs are accrued/inflicted a hurt/bad feeling but INFJs are not (they get away with it?), which causes an imbalance in feelings exchanged, which is unfair to the non-INFJ?

    Is this "roughly" the core of the problem with the delivery method of the doorslam?
    No, not at all really - sorry. I would say emotional currency is something I see more in Fe. Hmm, I'm just wondering what makes you say this and what you're trying to get at. This description is all so intention-driven it's hard for me to apply it to myself.

    We do scan emotional landscapes and don't put stock in external frameworks, but it's not at all about the back and forth aspect between people. It's about the analysis of that particular landscape on it's own terms. I would say it's about the self-contained subjective logic of that other person and the meaning of it. We are very aware of and can be deeply affected by other people's emotional landscapes. I care about the internal state of a person (where their thoughts and feelings come from and what drives them) and the external outcomes/impacts that come from that (in other words, Fi moving into Te?). Sorry, I'm not sure how to describe this properly without going into great detail.

    There are many things that offend me about the doorslam (note: I've only had the everyday/lesser kind, not a total shutdown - so I'm partially speaking in theory here): it makes my perspective feel invalidated; it bothers me to have feel like another person is dictating the terms of interaction and controlling me; the sense of injustice I feel; but also, the illogicality of it all really bothers me. The last point can matter more to INFPs than most people realise. Think of Fi as being much like Ti, but instead more focused on the analysis of human behaviour. We accept people are inherently messy creatures, but few things get us going more than a person claiming a position of rationality (or appearing to do so) and yet their thought-process/behaviour is full of logical fallacies. It actually offends my sensibilities and I feel a overwhelming urge to correct it. I can remember threads here where the NFPs got quite carried away with doing this.

    Also I can't say I can agree that there's many (if any) situations where I consider it justifiable for me to inflict hurt on others. There may be times where it's accidental, and times where I'm callous and unthinking (because I'm being emotionally lazy), but rarely intentionally hurtful.

    So INFPs here on the thread are not questioning INFJs' right to resort to doorslam but their (INFJs') right (or rather lack thereof) to inflict unilateral hurt and not giving non-INFJs a chance to somehow discharge that bad feeling/energy/hurt (grieving process)?
    Sort of, partially...

    To me, it feels like the INFJ is making objective claims about how things are (defining what the 'reality' of the situation is) that seem so distorted and is forcing that view on me, whilst shutting out my alternative theories. In a sense it does create a powerful build up of thoughts and emotions in myself, with nowhere to direct them and no way to resolve them (even internally - for myself).

    I'm not sure if any of that helps.
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  2. #1192
    Senior Member Array cafe's Avatar
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    I guess what's weird to me is that you believe that there is a group of people that do this stuff. Like defective people that share characteristics. To me, it's fairly normal break-up behavior other than the factors that put almost all or all of the legal cards in your ex's hands. I don't think it's healthy, but it's too common for it to be some kind of disorder.

    I would be surprised if at least half of all divorces did not have one party who did not want the marriage to end. Custody disputes where one parent tries to wrest the children and their affections away from the other parent -- or both parents do it -- very, very common. Otherwise normal people using their kids as weapons with little thought for how it impacts the kids or believing they are doing the right thing for their kids happens a lot. My state has no-fault divorce. It's very difficult to get an at-fault divorce here but when there are children involved, there are court-ordered parenting classes because this stuff really happens as often as not.

    I'm not saying your ex is healthy and normal, but this particular type of behavior is not unusual. Her resources are what make it unusual. Under more normal circumstances, you would have some rights. You couldn't force her to interact with you socially, etc but you would be able to have some kind of mediation. She might not deal with you directly, but she could have someone represent her and you would at least be heard. A go-between could be appointed to facilitate visitation unless she could prove within reason that you were a danger or you could prove the same about her. That's why there are courts for all this, because people usually can't manage to just sit down and be reasonable with each other.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
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  3. #1193
    Senior Member Array Tiltyred's Avatar
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    As I understand it, Mane got involved with a woman and her baby, became extremely attached, over time displeased the mother irrevocably, and was kicked out. He has no rights to assert, as far as I know. It's not his child.

    Supposedly she is an INFJ, but who even knows about that.

    As Cafe says, people do this stuff All. The. Time. What people who do this stuff have in common? They are human beings.

  4. #1194
    Senior Member Array cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    As I understand it, Mane got involved with a woman and her baby, became extremely attached, over time displeased the mother irrevocably, and was kicked out. He has no rights to assert, as far as I know. It's not his child.

    Supposedly she is an INFJ, but who even knows about that.

    As Cafe says, people do this stuff All. The. Time. What people who do this stuff have in common? They are human beings.
    Yep. It's the weird legal situation that makes it unusual. She left with the child and went to a country where she has citizenship and he does not. Most countries favor their own citizens. And not being a biological child makes it even more difficult. I don't know about the gender thing. I think my daughter read somewhere that when men actually attempt to get custody they have a fairly high chance of doing so. But that's in the US. Other places may not be that way.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  5. #1195
    Senior Member Array yeghor's Avatar
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    Default Confused...

    @Southern Kross;

    What I am trying to get at with that is that is the rough impression I get from INFP posts here...And I can grasp it if it is formulated/fleshed out in such a way...perhaps by real life "literal" narration of examples...

    Regarding invalidation, there may be external (like social, legal) justifications/frameworks (that I identify with) that may compel me or make me feel justified to refuse someone else's perspective...

    Perhaps this may serve as a simple example...A friend (X) tells me this story: there's this traffic light with a button for pedestrians to stop the traffic on a busy two way mainroad with a centre strip...X presses the button, cars stop...X crosses the road in a slow pace and reaches the centre strip even though X does not have any disabilities and might have crossed the road completely in one go if X increased pace...The traffic resumes again and then X stops the traffic once more to cross the other half of the road...A police officer nearby berates X for doing that on a busy road...X complains to me about this and I tell X that although X has a right to do that, X could have taken other people in the cars into consideration as well and could have increased pace so that like 20-30 more people wouldn't have to wait just for one person...X believes X can walk at whatever pace X wants and X cannot be forced to take external factors into consideration...

    My comment to X for instance I believe invalidated X's feelings...and perhaps police officer's comment made X feel like being controlled/dictated? I, OTOH, do not want to have to lie to (or enable) a friend...I suck at soothing btw (I think Fi dom/aux are much better at it)...Is this what you mean by invalidation? I need you to give me a simple concrete/literal example where you were doorslammed and felt invalidated so that I can grasp it...

    I am asking these questions so I can solidly see the issue...

    By "dictating the terms of the interaction" do you mean you want to have the last word or do not want the other to have the last word? Or is this about having to submit to some external factor and you resent that because that triggers something (what)? What further action would you take in regards to the other if you weren't controlled by it?

    Why the urge to correct another's process/behaviour unless it's causing you distress somehow? Why not simply accept it? How does illogicality of another's process affect you?

    Are Fi-doms engaged in collecting and adding other people's emotional landscapes (patterns) into their repertoire like a Ti-dom would collect ideas or a Ni-dom would collect underlying patterns in human interactions? What purpose do those collections serve in a Fi-doms life? Does Fi repertoire try to build essential templates of human psyche with its strengths and weaknesses? And the Fi-dom adjusts his/her actions towards people wrt those templates? Do they serve a way for Fi-dom to navigate without stepping on other people's toes, to chart their course? What does the template tell a Fi-dom when he/she encounters another person? Does it tell him/her that this person is template Y, approach the person in this manner so that all can be well? So that the person can be disarmed?

    Is there something wrong with the INFJ template? That it does not give accurate readings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross
    To me, it feels like the INFJ is making objective claims about how things are (defining what the 'reality' of the situation is) that seem so distorted and is forcing that view on me, whilst shutting out my alternative theories. In a sense it does create a powerful build up of thoughts and emotions in myself, with nowhere to direct them and no way to resolve them (even internally - for myself).
    ^^ Can the INFJ be feeling the same imposing and frustration from his/her perspective? So why not go separate ways or agree to disagree? Does INFJs' blocking arouse feelings in you that you have somehow been the "bad/wrong/false" side in the interaction and you need an urge to convince yourself that is not the case and that causes you distress?

    I hope this does not derail the thread...

  6. #1196
    Senior Member Array Tiltyred's Avatar
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    In any case, she clearly wants to be rid of him. There's not a lot to do but take it like a man and move on. Which might make me sound unsympathetic; I'm not, entirely - but this is the set of facts that engendered all the anti-INFJ talk, and when you boil it down ...

  7. #1197
    Vulnerability Array Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Fly-by post. I really should be getting my mom ready for the day, so this might seem somewhat out-of-place, but it's something that occurred to me, mostly from @fia's post. There are more posts I'd like to reply to, but that will have to wait until I find time.

    I've decided to ask my sister and her husband for a break from our weekly dinners. That doesn't sound like a big deal, but because of my past experiences with my family, what's been happening in my head is that I start imagining their response and planning on my own reaction (I'm sure there's some good typological explanation for that involving Ni somehow). And the response I imagine is mostly worst case scenario--bro-in-law will take it personally, get offended, and bite my head off. Or both of them will take it as a social slight and tell us to never come back for dinner ever again. Or they will see it as a taking away of their only opportunity to help with mom in a way that they are willing to help, so they will desperately try to keep us from taking a break.

    I do this a lot. Imagine responses and plan for them. And since there's not much reason to plan for the best, I tend to go for the worst. And then I feel dread. And I don't want to even tell them. I think that maybe I don't really need the break, or I think of other ways to get out of speaking up and facing the real response because the imaginary ones already feel horrible to me and I want to avoid more horrible feelings. So then I put off asking for what I need. I might rationalize it to myself as knowing how my family acts, which is true to an extent. Or maybe I'll tell myself I don't want to hurt their feelings. But by doing that I'm not giving them the chance to react. They might react well. I really can't know. And even if they do react badly, so what? It's a pain in the ass for me to have to keep repeating what I want to them when they don't listen, but it's gotten them to stop pouring Pepsi's for me when I don't want them (finally). And telling them sooner, rather than later has avoided a big blow up on my part. The thing is, I've made a small deal into a big deal in my own head before I've even tested it in reality to see if it actually will be a big deal. Then if it turns out to be a big deal, I've just added that to the already big deal in my head. So now it's an even bigger deal all the way around, AND I can justify that by telling myself that I called it in the first place and that they are just unreasonable people.

    Thing is, for the most part, when I've gone ahead and asked them for stuff like a break from the weekly dinners, they were actually more reasonable than I would have given them credit for. Not always, but most of the time.

    I can see where some of my own thought processes can be attributable to type; however, I don't know enough to actually point out what functions might be involved and in what way they're involved. Ni and Fe are in there somewhere.
    Johari / Nohari

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  8. #1198
    Senior Member Array Tiltyred's Avatar
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    If you feel invalidated nearly every time in a given interaction, it's only reasonable you will look for ways to fix that. You can avoid or you can confront, or you can decide it's all funny and fine, but to escape the bad feeling, you have to do something. Depends on your style, depends on how much energy you have to give to that particular facet of your present existence. It sounds like getting them to stop pouring you Pepsis you don't want took quite some effort, and that's a small thing. I imagine the Pepsi is just the tip of the iceberg. So it's no wonder you're asking to be excused.

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    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    I can identify with doing what you are talking about. It is generally done because I'm bad at thinking on my feet and need to know what I would do in a given situation. I also am learning that by twisting myself to accommodate any disagreements before they even happen is not fair to either party. In theory, I understand that facing things head on is best and that often something productive comes out of conflict. As we speak now though, I'm dreading a meeting tonight (just a visceral, involuntary emotional response), even though objectively I understand that only good things can come out of it.). One of the reasons my time in the north was so memorable was that it was the first time my frustration was so constant and unworkable that I really had to fight some things out. In every case it ended up being a positive thing, although dealing with it that way wouldn't have been my first choice.

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    Vulnerability Array Eilonwy's Avatar
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    I'm trying to point out that there might actually be a typological reason for the thought process behind the doorslam. I think INFJs probably got dealt a crappy hand with our combo of functions in the order they're in. All introverts are going to be somewhat more divorced from reality just because their dom function is internal and symbolic instead of realistic.

    With what little I know about the functions, here's my take on INFJ:
    Ni = imagined possibilities
    Fe = based in reality, but abstract decision making
    Ti = concrete, but symbolic, decision making
    Se = reality-based perception

    I think it's possible for us to become detached from reality more easily than most because our only external and concrete function is our weakest. No, that's not our fault (and it's not other people's fault either), but knowing this can maybe help in finding work-arounds to our own handicaps. It's unfortunate for us, but that might be the reality of it.

    ETA: I keep being reminded of when my ex and I took sign language classes and learned about deaf culture. Some deaf people want nothing to do with hearing people at all, to the point that they will shun any deaf people who do want to interact with the hearing, not to mention those deaf people who get implants in order to hear. They can't help their handicap, but they still have choices about how to interact with others.

    To try to tie it all in, it's possible that the complaints against certain INFJ thought processes (and blind spots) are valid. It doesn't mean that we can "fix" our thought processes, because we likely can't, but we can at least work around them in a way that is fair to both parties. But first we have to be aware of it. I think the people in this thread have been asking only for the awareness.
    Johari / Nohari

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