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  1. #1171
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    I realized I need to add to what my goal is in this thread. Besides understanding Mane and his pov in order to get past the "fix him" part of things, I would like for INFJs to be able to then start examining their own inner workings from a point of view that's not their own. I think that examination can be done without making yourself vulnerable to anyone but yourself. The choice to be vulnerable to others by posting any insights would be entirely up to each individual. That's the discussion that I would like to have.

    This is only my goal, no one else's. Everyone is free to choose their own goals for participating in this thread, or to not participate in this thread at all.


    ETA: Examining myself from another point of view was not about debasing myself or other INFJs, but about improving myself. If my mind is wired with a tendency to doorslam as a solution to whatever the problem is, and that solution actually keeps me from having healthy relationships, then figuring out how my mind works is going to benefit me in the long run. Looking at this from my own point of view was only causing me to justify and whitewash my own thinking. I had to step outside of myself in order to see a little deeper and more objectively. So, the doorslam isn't about the behavior of other people, it's about my response to the behavior of other people. And deeply examining that response--automatic or not, conscious or not--getting past that blind spot, might provide enough insight to allow me to find other solutions that will allow me to have healthier relationships, or just be a happier, more content person. What I did actually got rid of a lot of the "white noise" for me. And my automatic emotional reactions to criticism aren't nearly as strong as they were, which is a relief. I'm sure I'll still react strongly at times, but, overall, it's an improvement. For me and probably for the people who have to deal with me.

    Yes, I've had to give up some control, which means dealing with things as they come up (yikes! spontaneity!), which isn't always comfortable, but I think I've gained more than I gave up. YMMV
    YES! To all of this!

    That's what I (and some others) have been trying to break through and discuss.

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    This thing about doorslamming because an INFJ doesn’t like hearing something unflattering- it seems like peculiar turn to take in this discussion. But then maybe that’s why Eilonwy made this comment about the language INFJs were using: “Words like survival, self-preservation, shame, harm, damage, dominate, and power-play. Strong words. Catastrophic words.” It stunned me a bit at first because it seemed mocking, which is really out of character for E. But if that’s what “doorslam” has been in her mind since the topic started back up- not someone getting away from an unhealthy relationship, but someone unconsciously gravitating away from information that isn’t flattering- then it makes a little more sense.

    I do agree that this happens, and I have had it happen to me- an INFJ friend interpreted things as said as being negative feedback about her, and instead of being willing to talk about it she simply stopped contacting me. She changed her phone number every couple of years because she did this regularly to so many people- it was even a joke the first few years about how I ‘made the cut’ of people who got the new number. As I've said before (in this very thread)- it’s one thing to back away because a relationship is unhealthy/unbalanced and conflict can’t be worked out, and it’s another thing to back away because someone doesn’t have the image we like to thing others have of us. The latter is an unconscious defense mechanism; in the previous/linked post I used “coping mechanism”, but “defense mechanism” works better because it really isn’t a conscious action. Defense mechanisms are when people gravitate towards a belief that feels better because their needs aren’t being met, the way that plants gravitate towards growing in the direction of sunlight.
    It's interesting to hear you and Eilonwy talk about it like this. It fascinates me to see you discuss the exact same things and to see the subtle differences in how you write about it - to see the Ni-Fe twist on it. But I digress...

    And the problem (as I said before) with pointing this out is that defense mechanisms can’t be taken away by pointing them out: they’re invisible. You have to find some way to fill the needs those defense mechanisms are compensating for if you want them to become visible. My whole point here is that coming into this thread to guide the INFJs who do this particular kind of doorslam into ‘the light’ is….I don’t know, it seems fruitless to me. Because the kinds of INFJs who show up here to honestly talk about it are the kind who do it more for the self-preservation (they feel an obligation to others, but will doorslam to get rid of unhealthy/unbalanced relationships) reasons- not the flightier reason of needing to have a certain self-image reinforced.
    I don't know about bringing it into the light. I think some people, perhaps even myself, just want validation; to hear INFJs say it's a shitty thing, so they don't feel like they're crazy or ignored. I really don't know (I did say I was bad with the intent stuff).

    I do know often when I talk about people's negative inclinations, I say it in hope that next time when they hear themselves doing it, they stop and think; that if they try to have more consciousness of what they do when things go wrong or they feel uncomfortable with something, it can at least partially lessen the problem. I have a lot of belief in self-awareness. Perhaps this is just naive or wrong-headed - not sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I'm just gonna put this in spoilers to condense this post a bit but I do agree with the validity of it. People do come up with alternative narratives and claim the other isn't seeing things clearly, rather than take responsibility. There could be plenty of this going on. I think with Pe users it can be difficult to separate all those time when people wouldn't fucking listen to us and see how distorted their perceptions were, from times when we are biased by emotions and a desire to see the situation in a way that is favourable to us. I think with Pe-Fi, there can also be a underlying narrative of perceptual injustice in their lives - repeated occasions when you saw things clearly and weren't believed or were fobbed off or laughed at. It can be hard to get past that stuff.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  2. #1172
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I don't know about bringing it into the light. I think some people, perhaps even myself, just want validation; to hear INFJs say it's a shitty thing, so they don't feel like they're crazy or ignored. I really don't know (I did say I was bad with the intent stuff).

    I do know often when I talk about people's negative inclinations, I say it in hope that next time when they hear themselves doing it, they stop and think; that if they try to have more consciousness of what they do when things go wrong or they feel uncomfortable with something, it can at least partially lessen the problem. I have a lot of belief in self-awareness.
    @bold: Exactly. I examine the shit out of myself. When someone tells me I tend to a certain behaviour (+ve or -ve), I watch myself like a hawk to detect that behaviour in future. I go through the Si archives to extract relevant events and relive them over and over again and roll them around for awhile. I insert myself into the shoes of every participant, even when I don't want to. Sometimes I have to force myself to do that because I don't want to have compassion for them in that moment. I have to admit reality when I see it. I have to concede Fi contradictions. I've done that here even on the forum.

    People do come up with alternative narratives and claim the other isn't seeing things clearly, rather than take responsibility. There could be plenty of this going on. I think with Pe users it can be difficult for us to separate all those time when people wouldn't fucking listen to us and see how distorted their perceptions were, from times when we are biased by emotions and a desire to see the situation in a way that is favourable to us. I think with Pe-Fi, there can also be a underlying narrative of perceptual injustice in their lives - repeated occasions when you saw things clearly and weren't believed or were fobbed off or laughed at. It can be hard to get past that stuff.
    Agreed. Sometimes too I just think it's about equality. Like, you have your perceptions and I have mine and both are equally SUBJECTIVE. No one gets to claim some sort of objectivity in a situation where an opinion is just that and we all know that everyone has one. There's this struggle with Je dom and aux to even be heard in the first place. They plant a flag in the hill and you have to prove to them they stuck it in the wrong spot. It's not sour grapes to state this, it just IS.

    eta: I think too there's an element of holding attention in this. Fe and Te both want a purpose to what's being said. Me, I just want to share an experience. If the story is especially juicy, Je pays better attention. Very few people listen to me like I listen to others, not with the same focus or willingness to put aside my own perspective. It sometimes makes me hungry to be heard.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  3. #1173
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    ManeDoorslam = B wants to end the relationship with A based on own deductions but A tells B that B's deductions are incorrect/mistaken so B shouldn't...B insists on own deductions and ends the relationship anyway and refuses A's prospective attempts to initiate contact...A believes that B could not accept A's deductions about B because they conflicted with B's self image/own deductions/perceptions...

    [...]

    c) Could the reverse be true? That A could not handle B's deductions because they conflicted with A's self image/own deductions/perception?
    so person A is staying open to hear what person B has to say because person A can't handle what person B has to say...

    how would you even be able to reasonably argue for that?

  4. #1174
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    I wanted to offer a real life example of the doorslam. I think a decent example that offers a (slightly more) objective perspective would be useful. Only problem is, the doorslamming was done by a ENFJ. That's in part why I asked people's opinions earlier if ENFJs do it too. I personally think it's a NFJ thing, with subtle differences between the two. But it's up for debate I guess.

    Just a warning, it's a really long article but a rather fascinating story, so I would recommend people reading it. It was written in 2000 and it's about the actress Jena Malone (who is featured in my avatar ) and what lead up to the major falling out she had with her (I'm guessing ESFP) mother. What do you guys think of the situation:

    http://www.laweekly.com/2000-06-22/news/jena-at-15/

    I totally understand her cutting her mother off like that. Reading between the lines I can see how much hurt had accumulated and that she felt that there was no point continuing the relationship. However, I do think she could have handled it better. It seems like she could have voiced the fact that she was getting to that point or at least told her mother why they had to go separate ways. I do excuse the fact she didn't though. Everything is more clear in hindsight and when you're not the one there, not to mention the fact that she was a teenager at the time. I think the mother's behaviour was very wrong and hardly the way the adult in the relationship should act, but OTOH I can see how she could lose sight of things, end up down the wrong path and make those sorts of mistakes.

    BTW I want to just add that she did eventually forgive her mother in the months/years that followed the publishing of the article and apparently now they are stronger than ever.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  5. #1175
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    I've doorslammed a couple of people and there's no doubt in my mind that I'm an INFP.
    This stuff is not all about type, I'm telling you.

  6. #1176
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  7. #1177
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    So there are 2 parties...A and B...

    ManeDoorslam = B wants to end the relationship with A based on own deductions but A tells B that B's deductions are incorrect/mistaken so B shouldn't...B insists on own deductions and ends the relationship anyway and refuses A's prospective attempts to initiate contact...A believes that B could not accept A's deductions about B because they conflicted with B's self image/own deductions/perceptions...

    So please in as brief and simple terms as possible:
    a) Are A's deductions correct?

    b) Are B's deductions correct?
    Maybe to both. Maybe they're both partially correct. These deductions aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.

    c) Could the reverse be true? That A could not handle B's deductions because they conflicted with A's self image/own deductions/perception?
    Yes, maybe.

    d) How to identify the true circumstances of the relationship independent of A and B?
    You could write a book on that subject.

    e) How should A and B decide individually whether to maintain or end the relationship?
    Jeez, this is so complex. Ideally relationships shouldn't end in a hot blooded manner (and I would consider doorslamming hot-blooded); if you're still mad, you still have feelings. B should be careful not to make a decision too quickly and in the heat of emotion. I think A should fight to keep the relationship if he/she really believes in it, but there comes a point where B's wishes must be accepted, even if they're wrong.


    Sorry these questions aren't easy to answer meaningfully.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  8. #1178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    so person A is staying open to hear what person B has to say because person A can't handle what person B has to say...

    how would you even be able to reasonably argue for that?
    I haven't figured it out, but if we're lucky, the doors are French.

  9. #1179
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Why does person A insist on being up in person B's grill when person B clearly no longer wants them there? Why is that not unhealthy?
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Why does person A insist on being up in person B's grill when person B clearly no longer wants them there? Why is that not unhealthy?
    because defining your mental health by your willingness to play into the pretend universes of others in which you don't exist has being a hassle for the psychiatric association.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    I haven't figured it out, but if we're lucky, the doors are French.
    that might make life easier in either one of the meanings

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