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  1. #1161
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I do not wish to mentor you or be "besties". Although I think you too seem nice and kindly and would likely enjoy meeting you irl.

    I'm simply using "us" at the moment as an illustration of one point on the spectrum of the very dynamic the thread discusses. You hold the power and have closed a door. (Not slammed, just closed.) I see this as for a reason that's really not been discussed yet. Now, you only have as much of my power as I give you. And I've given a fair bit away over time by approaching you in the manner you prefer etc. but am pulling mine back by again engaging you on a topic you do not wish to open. Your response is to strong-arm me actually, to hold the power card over my head and tell me you will not engage. You wish to dictate the terms of interaction. And project onto me a purpose for my actions that has the power to offend you yet I do not possess that perspective.

    Do you see how this is working? Can you detach for a bit and see I am using "us" as an example here?
    Leave her alone, for the love of god, I beg you. Just leave her alone.

  2. #1162
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    When I think about the various reasons why an individual might join TypoC (a desire for self-improvement, a desire to understand their relatonships better, etc.) it comes as no surprise to me that I have personally NEVER seen the behavior that I'm about to describe from the INFJ members here. But this has been weighing heavily on me lately...this behavior from my personal experience... just how often I find my Mom and sister creating elaborate stories that never happened in reality.

    Now, before I go any further, I want to say that I'm not throwing or trying to throw the NFJ type under the bus here. I'm also intimately acquainted with what NFP or NP 'creating stories' looks like because I'm lucky enough to have a couple of these in my family as well The difference as I see it (and anyone can correct me here if what I say seems misguided) is that for NFP/NP the story gets twisted over time...externally/actively. A few details one day...a few more details the next. <-I will get this every once and a while from my brother and for obvious reasons I'm not threatened by it as I possess what it takes to twist the story right back into its rightful place within the space/time continuum (NFP/NPs are given a bad rap but are not as intentionally manipulative as they are often made out to be. What may appear to be 'story twisting'... To me this is a less formal version of 'Fe mirroring' or 'Fe cross-checking their stories' if I'm understanding what has been described to me in the past in reference to those things. The NFP/NP will toss out possible 'story lines' and adjust their understanding of 'reality' based on responses and/or actual feedback. And yes, they do become either knowingly or unknowingly attached to certain stories being shaped and accepted in a certain way for just or shameful reasons.) With my Mom and sister... it's actually scary because for the life of me...I don't understand what happens. For example, right before Christmas, my sister conveyed to me a *magical memory* of frequently being made to drive money from my parents over to me...to help me with the financial problems I supposedly had at the time. <-So scary. Never happened. Never. Which my Mom...who does this same thing mind you...confirmed for me in front of my sister was untrue (as she was part of the same conversation.) WTF? Where does that come from? And I ask them when this occurs... are you able to look at surrounding evidence at all in order to determine how likely the story is to have happened? Like oh maybe the fact my sister was living in California at this same time she supposedly was (also) being made to drive money over to me (a few states away.) <-Now I would use that 'living in California' bit...that would be a clue I would use to construct my reality.

    ^^Starry has a colorful family though. Starry's Mom is ENFJ. Starry's sister is technically an INFJ...but one of those 'different' kinds of INFJs being 6w5 sx/so and all. My ex though... I've been trying for so long to figure out how different he actually is/was. But that is why I got doorslammed. He woke-up one day with a created story of me. One day he loved me dearly...the next I was fit for a doorslam <-absolutely no exaggeration that is precisely what happened. Now he eventually figured it out. He knew he fucked-up. Why he wasn't capable of apologizing afterwards escapes me...but he knew he fucked-up and there was some solace in that...but??? Here's what I believe should have happened when we first met. He should have said to me "Starry...just as an fyi...there exists a possibility of me spontaneously creating a massive story about you in my head and acting on that by immediately cutting off all communication with you." At which point I could have said in return..."It's sure been nice knowing you...take good care of yourself."

    I don't give a crap anymore...but it would be interesting for me to know...what happens...and how likely it is for an INFJ to do this kind of thing... I imagine I'll never truly know though.
    لا تستطيع كسر المكسور

  3. #1163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Leave her alone, for the love of god, I beg you. Just leave her alone.
    Yeah Tilty! Lame to do this here...but I'm just happy to see you.
    لا تستطيع كسر المكسور

  4. #1164
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Happy to see you, too, Starry!

    ETA about this thread:

    I think so much of what's related here is attributable to mental illness rather than to type.

    Also to just general "I'm tired of your shit. I've told you what I don't like but you keep doing it. I'm tired of talking about it. We're through." Which I believe all people do, which is sometimes the only way.

    Also I note a whole lot of imagining your friends should be your therapists, and I think there's some truth in that, but on the other hand, a friend is not the same thing as a therapist and doesn't have the same obligation to put up with stuff. A friend has the option, always, to end the friendship. With or without explaining why. I don't see that it's a crime.

  5. #1165

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Leave her alone, for the love of god, I beg you. Just leave her alone.

  6. #1166

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    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  7. #1167
    Senior Member Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    [Still catching up/haven't read all...]

    I’m hearing people say, “You may THINK it’s about self-preservation and unbalanced relationships….but that’s a defense mechanism on your part, you only believe it because you can’t handle the truth.” I have had my share of people who will try using reasoning like this to convince me a relationship is balanced when it really isn't- what’s actually going on is the person is spinning things around, trying to explain how *I* am the one with the defense mechanism causing a problem, all so that they don’t have to look at themselves. This is why I often find this thread heinous and manipulative, because it is triggering the memory of dealing with this before. If I see someone’s focus being exclusively on what someone else is doing wrong- explaining how the other person’s defense mechanisms are supposedly causing problems, with little or no credible explanation of how they know it isn't their own defense mechanism kicking in (to come up with a narrative about how someone else’s reasoning is ‘off’ to protect their ego from the fact that someone might actually have a good reason for avoiding them)- then I can’t help but suspect they are doing something I have experienced in my own past: someone getting manipulative with the truth to protect their own ego, and then accusing the other person of being the one who is doing it.


    Ne can have a tendency to look outward and direct reality in a remarkably self-serving way- it does so with the ‘informing’ approach to dialogue, which is to say it’s more ‘explaining’ with a bunch of shapeshifty logic than using forceful language like Je does- but it’s still very much an attempt to direct the perception of other people. There are some Ne doms (and even aux) who seem so accustomed to doing this- who are so quick with words and convenient narrative, stories just *pop* into their head to explain away discomfort- that it seems to me like they don’t even begin to realize the extent to which they seem to feel entitled to direct the perceptions of other people. Where/when I see this going on- and Ni is pretty sensitive to it, it comes across as an almost desperate attempt to rationalize/explain a very short-sighted ‘truth’ (and it comes across as manipulative, or treating someone as if they’re stupid enough to believe the thesis that’s being put forth)- I tend to have little patience and won’t give that person’s voice much credit for very long. If that person can’t handle stopping to think a little harder about what they’re saying, I’m not sure why I owe it to them to point out the serious logistical flaws in what they're putting forth (which Ni picks up on immediately- though it can be insanely difficult to articulate, and takes a ridiculous amount of effort). [eta: Starry actually kind of just said the same thing I did in this last paragraph- only I'd say it's something that's true about all NP, not just NFPs.]

    So, @Southern Kross, I think that’s what yehgor was getting at with this:

    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    You are missing the "intent" component...
    We (or at least *I*) understand that an INFJ is capable of *thinking* I am backing away from an ‘unhealthy’ relationship- when in fact I’m backing away from something I simply don’t like and don’t want to believe about myself (and in doing so I’m backing away from an opportunity to grow). But I also know that someone is capable of trying to explain to me this is the reason I’m backing away….as a defense mechanism of their own, all because they can’t face there might be some very good reason why I’m backing away. This is why 'intent' matters. I think ultimately the only way to find the truth in such situations is to bring in trusted/objective 3rd parties to find out exactly which end (if not both) is doing this more.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  8. #1168

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    ...But that is why I got doorslammed. He woke-up one day with a created story of me. One day he loved me dearly...the next I was fit for a doorslam <-absolutely no exaggeration that is precisely what happened. Now he eventually figured it out. He knew he fucked-up. Why he wasn't capable of apologizing afterwards escapes me...but he knew he fucked-up and there was some solace in that...but??? Here's what I believe should have happened when we first met. He should have said to me "Starry...just as an fyi...there exists a possibily of me spontaneously creating a massive story about you in my head and acting on that by immediately cutting off all communication with you." At which point I could have said in return..."It's sure been nice knowing you...take good care of yourself."

    I don't give a crap anymore...but it would be interesting for me to know...what happens...and how likely it is for an INFJ to do this kind of thing... I imagine I'll never truly know though.
    I can't exactly relate to this^^ scenario...

    But I sometimes fester (conspiracy) scenarios in my head or have imaginary quarrels with my friends about some perceived hurt...Usually they dissipate when I check the issue with them or I bury it deep if they themselves show genuine concern for me afterwards...Perhaps such an imagined scenario or monologue had festered in him for too long without outside verification or dissipation, due to which he concluded it to be real? I don't really see how it can happen just over a night though...He should have gradually become distant/detached before doorslam in such a case...

    I did not actually become very self aware until I was 26-27...So perhaps he also was not aware enough of why he was doing what he was doing to be able to articulate it when you first met? Perhaps he was not conscious of this reflex...?

    He may not have had the courage to face the shame so he may have avoided apologizing to you...

    Sorry...that's all insight I can offer...

  9. #1169
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    The belowgiven model is based on Mane's description of doorslam, I was referring to this model:
    OK my mistake. I will try to come back to answering those questions

    What I mean by intent is the intent behind A telling B things that B would not like to hear and would not like how it would make B look...I have a problem with the word "like" here by the way...it's not about liking the words or the perspective...it is about the intent for which those words and perspectives are uttered...

    Are the negative things about B voiced out as a separate grievance or to deflect a grievance raised by B?

    That's what I meant by "tit for tat" mentality...

    For instance: B: You are lying, insulting, condescending to me etc how can you do this to me?....A: You did those things to me as well in such and such past instances (subtext: you are also a lying, insulting, condescending person yourself as well as a hyprocrite) which means your grievance is invalid...we are even?...WTF...Why continue such a relationship at all then?

    Two wrongs don't make a right...Regardless whether A's accusations hold water or whether they make B feel bad, it doesn't make B's grievance go away...it doesn't address/resolve B's grievance...it doesn't absolve A of responsibility either...it OTOH dissolves the relationship...a relationship based on lies...so why hate B when B officially ends a relationship that, in spirit, has already ended...(i.e. faith/goodwill lost in reference to earlier posts...)

    You were assuming that all negative things uttered by A about B are aimed at voicing out and resolving A's grievance so that the damaged relationship can be repaired...and that B is running away because B cannot or does not want to deal with the grievance that A voiced out...That is not "always" the case...

    In fact, in case of doorslams it is rather about A's tendency to deflect grievances with counter-grievances forcing the relationship grievances (you do it too, you misunderstood I did not mean it that way, you are too sensitive, you are not thinking clearly etc.) into a deadlock...rather than owning up B's grievance and display a willingness to deal with it...and these repetitive instances forming a pattern in B's mind implying that at this rate the grievances will never be resolved...it will turn into a gangrane...so why maintain the (toxic?) relationship at all?
    Yes, these are all valid points. But I'm not really talking about guilt and whether the relationship should be preserved. I agree that these are all factors that have a great deal of influence on the situation, but personally speaking (ie. perhaps seeing things as a Fi-Ne user) these things are of less importance to me in evaluating things. I realise they are important to INFJs and I recognise the value of focussing on intent as a way of reading people and their interactions. But just as my failure to put much stock in intent blinds me to certain factors about myself and others, the same thing can happen to INFJs. They can fail to look past intent and can't see what is troubling others about the way they are acting. So in a way what I'm trying to do is empathise why INFJ act as they do but also hope to reveal the situation to them with different eyes.

    To me the stuff you're talking about can really miss the point. I'm not talking so much about what people say or do, or what they feel, but instead the underlying meaning of what these things. When I offer counter-grievances I intend not to lay blame in return or to make claims about the relative weight of blame. I'm looking past that. I'm looking at the individual behaviour entirely separate to everything else. In your model, 'A' might have behaved poorly in a number of ways - actually, I take this factor as a given. I find the tit-for-tat mentality tiresome as well. Because it's too difficult for me to evaluate it in clear and certain terms (without getting totally bogged down in it), I'm trying to push that messy stuff aside and look at what's going on underneath.

    I don't mean to sound dismissive or unsympathetic. I'm just offering alternative views of the same situation and why people are upset by that. Also I am trying to bring that stuff back to the language that's going to make sense to you, and not just cram my way of thinking down your throat.

    I do not think that this is an INFJ-specific behaviour...I would be more inclined to discuss this if you detached it from INFJs...All types can act this way on things that they feel passionate about...for instance, INFJs: Ni-Ti deductions...INFPs:Fi-Si deductions...INTJs: Ni-Fi deductions? etc...the block you mention might appear in any type when they feel that the other party is trying to impose/strongarm onto them the other's convictions about an issue they also feel passionate about...
    Absolutely. I didn't mean to say otherwise. However the sort of negative feeling people will get in reaction to, say a Fi-Ne deduction, will be entirely specific to the way that type communicates; it will frustrate/insult others in very particular ways. That specific feeling is what I was trying get across to you.

    If you do not agree with the "ManeDoorslam" model...please revise it in a simple way from your perspective...so we can discuss a model about doorslam that we can all agree on...
    I offered a definition in my earlier post. I'm not sure whether that what you looking for, though.

    Would you consider lying, remarks intended not to voice out grievance but to cause emotional hurt serious betrayal? Especially when they are repetitive, forming a pattern?
    Perhaps. I do find it difficult to commit to outlining particular circumstances where I think it would be acceptable, because I think it depends so much on the situation. I think there can be times where people commit seemingly small acts of unkindness (in the scheme of things), but in context I consider them serious acts of cruelty and betrayal, especially when combined with other negative patterns of behaviour.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  10. #1170
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    I'm also intimately acquainted with what NFP or NP 'creating stories' looks like because I'm lucky enough to have a couple of these in my family as well The difference as I see it (and anyone can correct me here if what I say seems misguided) is that for NFP/NP the story gets twisted over time...externally/actively. A few details one day...a few more details the next. <-I will get this every once and a while from my brother and for obvious reasons I'm not threatened by it as I possess what it takes to twist the story right back into its rightful place within the space/time continuum (NFP/NPs are given a bad rap but are not as intentionally manipulative as they are often made out to be. What may appear to be 'story twisting'... To me this is a less formal version of 'Fe mirroring' or 'Fe cross-checking their stories' if I'm understanding what has been described to me in the past in reference to those things. The NFP/NP will toss out possible 'story lines' and adjust their understanding of 'reality' based on responses and/or actual feedback. And yes, they do become either knowingly or unknowingly attached to certain stories being shaped and accepted in a certain way for just or shameful reasons.)
    It's a derail to respond to this part, but that's well-said and I do relate to this paragraph. I see it as kind of responding to the reception the story gets from each respective audience. The details in retelling a story (when the event is first relived) are fairly true to exactly what happened and are generally narrative. For me to tell a story, the event would have evoked an emotional response and to convey the meaning of what happened, I sometimes want to share that emotional response with the person listening as well. So, especially if the person listening does not have the same response or acts like I'm crazy to have felt that way, in order to evoke the response, the details get tweaked, emphasized or de-emphasized over time. I recognized this tendency in myself very young. My first memory of it is at 7 years old.

    When that happens, that I put stress on one aspect rather than another, I get the Fi gut-feeling of not being truthful to stray from the balance of facts of the matter or exaggerating to a certain exterior affect. I don't like this so I work hard to be aware and correct myself. It's a temptation for sure. I'm never really interested in being a great story-teller though, as I don't have a goal or an emotional destination in the story I am driving for (ENTP's in particular I think lean to that direction). I more want to convey that feeling that I had in the personal experience, and when it's not shared, I sometimes want to work the details to ensure the story is experienced by the listener in the same emotional manner I felt it. I don't feel like I am telling the story right somehow if the listener can't relate.

    Is that what you mean @Z Buck McFate by shape-shifty logic? (I see it as a desire to belong rather than logic? Or maybe it is Fe logic, in it's own way? I guess to me Te is logic after all.) But if that's what you've meant, I can relate to that and see it in varying degrees / venues with all NPs. Trying to share the community experience, but on a smaller scale. Like Starry is talking about.

    This probably deserves a thread, actually.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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