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  1. #1141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    I think we're drowning in the details just trying to define the thing.
    semantic dodging aside, the mental reaction in question is still pretty much this:
    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    .And yes, I have examined their perspective...and I did not like the role they had for me in their perspective...
    this focuses the discussion pretty well i think, and serves too:

    to narrow it down (beyond the attempt people tried extending it too):
    no, nobody is telling anyone not run away in a state of physical abuse, nobody is telling anyone to never end a relationship or break up with anyone, nobody is telling anyone to never take some time off for themselves, nobody is telling anyone to never physically slam doors, nobody is telling you to not listen to Back Door Slam.
    to extend it to (beyond the semantic dodging people here tried to narrow it from):
    no it is not only doorslamming when you did or didn't say goodbye or did or didn't go to the bathroom before or the discussion you had the 20 minutes before or what did you wear that night or whether you have the same hair color or whether the door has purple stripes and a yellow nob shaped like an owl.

    for the most part the most persistent commonality behind the door slams referenced:
    the act of cutting off ties in reactions to perspectives of yourself which conflict with your ego.

  2. #1142
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Let me see if I understand - are you defining doorslamming (at least for the purposes of this discussion) as being when someone cuts contact without warning because that person has painted them in a light that is negative in comparison to the light in which they see themselves?

  3. #1143

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    for the most part the most persistent commonality behind the doorslams referenced is the act of cutting off ties in reactions to perspectives of yourself which conflict with your ego
    Thank you for condensing it. And so, no, I have never done that to anyone, but I have had it done to me and it hurts.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  4. #1144
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Let me see if I understand - are you defining doorslamming (at least for the purposes of this discussion) as being when someone cuts contact without warning because that person has painted them in a light that is negative in comparison to the light in which they see themselves?
    hmm, i didn't add without warning (i'd list that under door-nob colors), but other then that, yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    Thank you for condensing it. And so, no, I have never done that to anyone, but I have had it done to me and it hurts.
    it certainly can, i'm sorry to hear that
    hopefully there are workable solutions to be found

  5. #1145
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    for the most part the most persistent commonality behind the door slams referenced:
    the act of cutting off ties in reactions to perspectives of yourself which conflict with your ego.
    Thanks for this. My head has been spinning lately, with all of the perspective changes, and I lost sight of this definition.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    *. i should mention that this touches on an Ne dom blindspot jung described extensively: the inability to distinguish between "how it works" and "how could you work it", what something is and what it can become/manipulated/changed into. i am not entirely convinced i can tell the difference).
    **. to contrast, last few times anyone talked to me about ENTPs being assholes socially, blind in relationships or prideful idiots professionally, my reaction wasn't the concern about how it reflected on me or justifying myself or reframing their experiences to suit my ego, but to brainstormed strategies. its fun at times and enlightening in others.
    And thanks, too, for the nuggets of info about Ne blind spots that you've been sharing here and there.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  6. #1146
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    I haven't door-slammed anyone for saying stuff to me about me that I didn't like. I have door-slammed people I believed would negatively impact my well-being or that of my family, intentionally or otherwise. I am depressive (bipolar), I have extremely low physical energy. I have four children, two of whom have a disability. Honestly, I cannot handle a lot more than what I've got on my plate. If a situation shows signs of requiring more physical, financial, emotional, or time resources than I feel I can manage, I let it go.

    Most of the negative stuff I hear about myself that I don't like comes from my husband's and my family members who are very religious and conservative. I do intentionally limit contact and try to steer conversation topic away from areas where we conflict. They have a perfect right to believe what they do about me, but I do not tell them how to raise their kids, how to vote, which church to go to or how often to go, how to pray, when to read their Bibles, what to watch on TV, what to read, what games to play, how to spend their money, etc, so I do not feel obligated to listen to their opinions about my choices on those topics.

    If my husband has a problem with me, he gets listened to. If my kids have a problem, they get listened to. Other stuff I take on a case by case basis. But you know what they say about opinions.

    I absolutely protect my ego like a prepper protects his can opener. My upbringing left me with a stunted ego overshadowed by a giant, overbearing super-ego. It's taken me awhile to get a little balance and threatening that will get you ejected.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  7. #1147

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    hmm, i didn't add without warning (i'd list that under door-nob colors), but other then that, yes.



    it certainly can, i'm sorry to hear that
    hopefully there are workable solutions to be found
    Thanks, Mane. I do hope so. I'm pretty good at picking locks
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  8. #1148
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    I guess you might find my answers rather unhelpful, but I am answering sincerely.

    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    1-What do you do when you feel that people that you have any kind of a relationship are taking advantage of you and insist that they are not?
    Depends on the situation.

    or when you feel that they are not sincere? or feel that they have have ulterior motives?
    I account for those variables and attempt to move past them. Lots of people are insincere. Lots of people have ulterior motives. This does not necessarily mean they are disingenuous.

    2-About the power thing...power over what/who?
    Think about the pecking order.

    3-What kind of people in your life do you feel to be deserving your care/concern/value/time/energy?
    *sigh* I try to help pretty much anyone who needs it, within the reasonable constraints of my time and energy. I do prioritize towards my husband, my grown children, parents, extended family and friends.

    4-How do you decide if someone is or deserves to be a friend or frenemy or not a friend at all?
    I don't make conscious choices in this manner.

    5-About the downside thing...What is the downside for you in your relationships? Why should a downside in a relationship exist at all?
    There is always a downside. There are always pros and cons, to pretty much everything. Always.

    8-What constitutes abuse/abusive behaviour in a relationship?
    Depends on the situation. (Aside from the obvious.)

    9-How do you end a relationship? How or do you interact with the other afterwards?
    I've only deliberately ended one relationship, an old boyfriend from 25 odd years ago. I have let people drift off. I don't really have a set way of ending anything, more that there's just distancing over time. I expect a kind of ebb and flow with other people too, that we intersect now and again over time in unexpected ways.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  9. #1149
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    First of all, even Brene Brown urges that it's a mistake to show vulnerability where it doesn't feel right to do so: Why Brené Brown Says There's No Vulnerability Without Trust

    How do you open up to someone you don't completely trust? Dr. Brené Brown, an expert on vulnerability and worthiness, has a one-word answer: "Don't." Watch Dr. Brown explain why vulnerability is our greatest gift and how we shouldn't give it to people who haven't earned it. Plus, Dr. Brown reveals how you can use your openness and honesty to filter out those who aren't worth your time.
    I'm not advocating suddenly being vulnerable to anyone who comes along. I would hope that people would use common sense. But it also takes some measure of vulnerability to look at yourself honestly. That doesn't have to involve other people, so the matter of trust shouldn't be an issue. Unless one doesn't trust oneself.

    Personally, it didn't take that much more vulnerability for me to talk with @Mane about the doorslam stuff than it takes for me to write what I write in my blog, so it's not like I took a huge leap of faith off the edge of a cliff. There was never a point where it didn't "feel right to do so", so I guess that means it wasn't a mistake for me.

    As for trust, after rereading Mane's posts from two years ago, and deciding to believe his reporting of his experience (which is something we INFJs have been asking people to do for us, so it is only fair that we should return the favor), it struck me that there were some pretty decent values hidden behind all the anger that I had been projecting onto his words. And he has consistently demonstrated those values in his dealings with me. Did I trust him two years ago? No. Did I suddenly up and decide to trust him a few months ago? No. A level of trust, on my part, was built up through getting a better feel for who he was from his posts and from VM conversations. On the flip side, did he have any reason to trust me? No. So, I wasn't the only one taking a risk. And if you look at the whole thing a certain way, Mane was actually the one who was vulnerable first. Maybe the warning in your quote should have been for him two years ago. Certainly no one on this forum had earned his vulnerability at that time.

    Secondly, when you say "own it".....are you referring to actual doorslams that have happened in people's lives (and insinuating that INFJs here have related to stories about having doorslammed people they were close to irl, and done so in such a way that you believe they 'blamed' the person they couldn't handle interacting with anymore more than they should) or is this more about INFJs here not being able to handle too much interaction with some of the other members here?** [I get the impression- from the way you keep bringing up 'giving mane a second chance'- it's the latter, and for the sake of fairness I want to point out there's a huge difference between "distancing someone you hardly know on an internet forum" and "doorslamming someone you've been close to irl". I believe the latter should incite a much stronger obligation and responsibility.]
    Neither. I'm saying that people should own the decisions they make, no matter what those decisions are. It's actually empowering to do so, because it implies choice over force. Instead of another person's behavior causing a certain decision to be made, the behavior is only one factor in making a personal decision. That way, more options open up. This has been a long, hard lesson for me. I sure haven't owned all of my decisions in life.

    As for "give Mane a second chance", that's not quite what my goal is. I'm not asking everyone to be friends with him, it's more about understanding him and his pov in order to have a different and more productive conversation than the previous one. To somehow get past "Mane is an asshole, ignore him or fix him." and have a discussion instead.

    Thirdly:
    The phrases "feel in control" and "to have some power in the relationship", in my mind, imply wanting the lion's share of 'control' or 'power'. But the truth is- yes, everyone should want 'control' and 'power' in a relationship. They should want the same amount of 'control' and 'power' the other person has. [And there's something seriously f'ed up about interaction where a person gets accused of wanting to "control the relationship" simply because they want *some* control within the relationship- it's a common tendency of narcissists though to make this accusation, to make the person with weak boundaries feel bad for trying to assert any boundaries at all around themselves.]

    **eta: It seems to me like these two things are getting merged together when they shouldn't because it's two separate issues. If I'm mistaken about this though, I apologize. Like I keep saying, I'm only reading maybe half the new posts- so it wouldn't surprise me if I was reading something wrong.
    I was just throwing speculations out there. I don't know why an extreme or worst case scenario is always assumed. Why would a person doorslam? Because they somehow feel powerless to do otherwise? Are there other options? Speculations for discussion. Not accusations or advocating that people be doormats. There must be some grey somewhere, instead of all of this black and white.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  10. #1150

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I guess you might find my answers rather unhelpful, but I am answering sincerely.

    Your answers feel too vague to me...They do not give any handles to grab...Feels like oil wrestling...

    Depends on the situation.

    ^^Define worst case scenario you experienced in terms of handling please...

    I account for those variables and attempt to move past them. Lots of people are insincere. Lots of people have ulterior motives. This does not necessarily mean they are disingenuous.

    ^^What if they keep insisting that you are mistaken in your deductions about them and keep projecting a perspective of you on you that conflicts with your perceptions of yourself as well as deductions about them and do not want to allow you to move past them?

    Think about the pecking order.

    ^^From my perspective, the right to end a relationship unilaterally is not about pecking order...It's about the level of committment you feel towards the relationship, which is not a constant thing and may diminish in time depending on the actions of the other...The same may apply to the other...The other also lose committment to the relationship due to my actions and has the power to end the relationship unilaterally as well...


    *sigh* I try to help pretty much anyone who needs it, within the reasonable constraints of my time and energy. I do prioritize towards my husband, my grown children, parents, extended family and friends.

    ^^How do you classify friend, non-friend?

    I don't make conscious choices in this manner.

    ^^???How do you classify friend, non-friend? or that some friend is no longer a friend?...Or do you treat any stranger with the same level of intimacy that you would give to a friend?

    There is always a downside. There are always pros and cons, to pretty much everything. Always.

    ^^Can losing invested energy/time/resources in the relationship be a downside for the INFJ?

    Depends on the situation. (Aside from the obvious.)

    ^^Name basic versions of abuse please...

    I've only deliberately ended one relationship, an old boyfriend from 25 odd years ago. I have let people drift off. I don't really have a set way of ending anything, more that there's just distancing over time. I expect a kind of ebb and flow with other people too, that we intersect now and again over time in unexpected ways.

    ^^What if they do not want to drift away?
    Thanks...

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