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  1. #1131
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    I still think we're not completely grasping the concept. Life threatening ≠ doorslam. It's reasonable to not have contact with people who threaten your life. What's not reasonable is the catastrophic thinking that leads to everyone being a potential threat to your life. A doorslam can be a doorslam with or without warning, I think. Relationships are allowed to end. You don't have to be friends with everyone you meet. I see so many extremes being brought up. So many, "what about this situation?" posts. @fidelia almost has it, but it still feels like there's something missing there, too. Like just a slight shift is needed and we'll see the 3D picture pop out. I'm not there yet, either. Not in a way I can explain.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  2. #1132
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Well, I think for many INFJs, the doorslam ends up happening once the INFJ has given up on the relationship improving. It could be that they've concluded it takes more energy than the results it yields, it may be that they've lost faith in the other person's good intentions, could be that their visions are so different that they don't believe that aligning them is possible, could be that suddenly past patterns come into focus as having meaning that they had not previously recognized, they might feel they are not going in the same direction as life, or they just are hearing so much emotional noise that they need distance, they may feel like their voice is not being heard, no matter how they try to communicate. They also may feel publicly embarrassed or betrayed by someone they had trusted with the inmost parts of their being. Or they just use doorslamming to avoid uncomfortable feelings or because they are not willing to put in the work of communicating.

    Perhaps that is the part that stings - the INFJ has made the decision without consultation and the other party feels that the guilt is being placed at their feet, that they are the one lacking. Not only that, but it is a decision that appears to be irrevocable, so their is not chance for resolution in any sense.

    I think there are very few situations that call for a complete doorslam (danger, mental illness in some forms, extreme deception that has serious implications), but I do think there are cases where people need to reserve the right to draw appropriate boundaries, and take several steps backwards when those boundaries are not respected.

    Any interaction is a two person venture, and that is one of the vulnerable things about it. One person alone cannot perpetuate a relationship if the other doesn't wish to. Often the issue isn't even about them, but about the other person's beliefs about themselves or the world around them, which affect how they relate to everyone. I have seen five of my parents siblings divorce, not because they wanted to, but because their partner did not want to keep the relationship going. While they may have had contributing factors in the demise of the relationship, ultimately, it ended because the other person walked away or insisted on impossible terms. Such is life.

    All we can do then is try to carefully choose close friends or spouses that are equally committed, and who have developed communication skills and have a bit of practice demonstrating those skills over a period of time in various settings/relationships and then also endeavor to do the same ourselves. Even then, there is no guarantee that anyone will be treated in a fair way or that the person they are with won't change.

    I guess what I am trying to differentiate is the right to choose who you pour your resources and trust into and under what conditions vs treating people close to you in a fair manner, particularly when you don't see eye to eye.

  3. #1133
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    ...Perhaps that is the part that stings - the INFJ has made the decision without consultation and the other party feels that the guilt is being placed at their feet, that they are the one lacking. Not only that, but it is a decision that appears to be irrevocable, so their is not chance for resolution in any sense...
    Could this be making them feel powerless/weak/vulnerable? Would a confrontation that would allow them to say their piece relieve that feeling of guilt/vulnerability?

  4. #1134
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    I still think we're not completely grasping the concept. Life threatening ≠ doorslam. It's reasonable to not have contact with people who threaten your life. What's not reasonable is the catastrophic thinking that leads to everyone being a potential threat to your life. A doorslam can be a doorslam with or without warning, I think. Relationships are allowed to end. You don't have to be friends with everyone you meet. I see so many extremes being brought up. So many, "what about this situation?" posts. @fidelia almost has it, but it still feels like there's something missing there, too. Like just a slight shift is needed and we'll see the 3D picture pop out. I'm not there yet, either. Not in a way I can explain.
    What would make a "doorslam" different from a regular break-up then? Are all break-ups bilaterally decided/agreed upon?

  5. #1135
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakup

    A relationship breakup, often referred to simply as a breakup,[1] is the termination of an intimate relationship by any means other than death. The act is commonly termed "dumping [someone]" in slang when it is initiated by one partner.

    In 1976, sociologist Diane Vaughan proposed an "uncoupling theory," where there exists a "turning point" in the dynamics of relationship breakup - 'a precise moment when they "knew the relationship was over," when "everything went dead inside"' - followed by a transition period in which one partner unconsciously knows the relationship is going to end, but holds on to it for an extended period, even for years.[9]

    Vaughan considered that the process of breakup was asymmetrical for initiator and respondent: the former 'has begun mourning the loss of the relationship and has undertaken something tantamount to a rehearsal, mentally and, to varying degrees, experientially, of a life apart from the partner'.[10] The latter then has to play catch-up: 'to make their own transition out of the relationship, partners must redefine initiator and relationship negatively, legitimating the dissolution'.

  6. #1136
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    I think it's not about defining doorslam, in a way. It's that the definition is still too much from the INFJ perspective--our defining limits and boundaries and justifications for doing it. We're still not seeing it from outside of ourselves. And that doesn't mean that the other person gets a pass. It's not all or nothing. It's not give, give, give and then give some more. We're too focused on our perceived side of it.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  7. #1137
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I'm not really trying to define it from someone else's POV because mine is the only head I live in. I have access to some of the possible (perceived) motivations that I (or someone like me) might consider doing so and the reason I would offer those is in an attempt for the other parties that have come here to make sense of their situation. I can't right the wrongs that have happened between them and their significant other. Neither am I in the habit of doorslamming.

    I already agree that INFJs tend to give away too much power and then resent or blame the people who they perceive retain it. I also think that we tend to value different things than some other types, so the places where we are rigid or where we are bendy will be different than where another type is rigid or bendy, and therefore neither will recognize the others`bending for what it is.

    If someone is willing to explain the impact that a doorslam has on their life, it is food for thought for me to see whether or not I display those tendencies myself and maybe solicit the opinions of people I am closest to. I probably won`t discuss that publicly though, or at least not until it isn`t very personal to me and I feel like I`ve tested my ideas sufficiently to present them to someone.

    I guess that`s what I mean by having a productive discussion - one where either I can offer missing information that they don`t have access to, which will help them resolve their problems or make sense of them, or else one where I am left with some new ideas to ponder or a picture of how the other person perceives something entirely differently that seems quite logical to me with my particular perspective.

    I am interested in hearing the other parties`definitions of the doorslam to see if how it appears from outside the door is completely different, but I don`t think I can best get that information from people who are INFJ. That`s why I spent some time trying to determine whether Mane was up for an exchange of information, was looking for closure, wanted to vent, had an overview on the whole situation from the perspective of two years later, if he just wanted INFJs to see things from his perspective, or if the emotional tone of his content would make it difficult for me to pay attention to what he had to say. Depending on the answer, it would probably have changed whether or not I was interested in venturing further into the thread.

    Maybe that`s the issue - we all mean different things by the word door slam, or are looking to get different things out of the discussion. I realize that my outcome based orientation is foreign and not all that useful to ENFPs and ENTPs especially. On the other hand, it is the only way I can determine whether or not an exchange is worth the investment it requires, especially if time or emotional resources are finite. I don`t expect someone to do it my way. That`s why I wanted to know what Mane was hoping for. In that sense, I could determine whether I had anything to offer the discussion, whether there may be something I could glean from it and not try to arm-wrestle it into being something that he never intended it to be once the discussion was underway. I`d liken it to looking at a help wanted description and determining based on my own qualifications, interest, knowledge about the employing organization and their values or goals whether or not I would like to apply, or whether I`d be better to save everyone`s time and check out something else instead.

  8. #1138
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    While I had no doubt in that thread that you and others had been hurt by INFJs in the past, it also seemed to me that we as a whole were being commanded to to answer for the crimes of someone else we didn't know who exhibited behaviour I didn't identify with.
    i've addressed this earlier, but to clarify further: there is "trying to explain" (examine, "how does this work"*, ) and there is "trying to explain" (justify, "explain yourself young lady!"). for whatever reason, a lot of the INFJs seem to read the first as the later, or perhaps find the two hard to distinguish. either way, the result is that the general responses here people have gotten for talking about their problems with INFJs (and expressing a desire to get a better grasp of them) has mostly being composed of self righteous justifications and attempts at establishing ideological support for causing the same problems**. in doing so you essentially change the topic from "how it works" to "is it justified", and in turn whether the arguments and ideological framework placed to support it are justified, resulting in you feeling on trial, and the response of anyone coming with their own personal experiences is then to the argue against the justifications using those personal experiences, so you end up feeling on trial for other people's personal experiences.

    ..and round and round the merry go round.

    *. i should mention that this touches on an Ne dom blindspot jung described extensively: the inability to distinguish between "how it works" and "how could you work it", what something is and what it can become/manipulated/changed into. i am not entirely convinced i can tell the difference).
    **. to contrast, last few times anyone talked to me about ENTPs being assholes socially, blind in relationships or prideful idiots professionally, my reaction wasn't the concern about how it reflected on me or justifying myself or reframing their experiences to suit my ego, but to brainstormed strategies. its fun at times and enlightening in others.


    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    However, I do make some decisions based on the other person's tone and approach (hence the questions earlier in the thread about tone and intent)
    what exactly is the expectation here? a list of goals? how about this:


    i really don't know how to J it up any further.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    One difference I've seen in the approach by Ne is the need for immediacy and there's some green eggs and hamming that sometimes occurs that causes enough emotional noise that for me, the message gets lost.
    huh, i've done that so many times i probably couldn't even count them
    (quite literally with my son though )

  9. #1139
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    I think it's not about defining doorslam, in a way. It's that the definition is still too much from the INFJ perspective--our defining limits and boundaries and justifications for doing it. We're still not seeing it from outside of ourselves. And that doesn't mean that the other person gets a pass. It's not all or nothing. It's not give, give, give and then give some more. We're too focused on our perceived side of it.
    We need a model to work on...to simplify and pinpoint the issue...Something that all parties can agree on...smt that would serve as a template...otherwise we get drowned in details of the issue before even agreing on its basics/essentials...

    BUMP:

    "My perception of the word doorslam is when you cut someone out of your life entirely without warning and with no communication after."

    So there are 2 parties...A and B...

    Doorslam = B ends the relationship with A without any heads-up (prior dialogue?) and refuses A's prospective attempts to initiate contact...

    So please in as brief and simple terms as possible:

    a) What part(s) of this definition is causing the problem?

    b) Modify the definition to represent the ideal/proper way to handle the relationship...

    c) Under what conditions would the original "doorslam" approach be acceptable?
    Last edited by yeghor; 01-15-2014 at 03:37 PM. Reason: Bump

  10. #1140
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    We need a model to work on...to simplify and pinpoint the issue...Something that all parties can agree on...smt that would serve as a template...otherwise we get drowned in details of the issue before even agreing on its basics/essentials...
    I think we're drowning in the details just trying to define the thing.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

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