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  1. #1091
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    One other thought-I think for me, sometimes criticism is disorienting if it is completely at odds with my perceptions. While of course, I suppose it's difficult for one to completely separate ego, I don't think that's completely what drives my reaction. Rather, it's disconcerting to think that everything that are normally reliable ways by which to perceive and navigate the world are no longer trustworthy. If someone told me that I was mistakenly perceiving something as red, which was in reality yellow, I wouldn't just accept that statement immediately because up till this point my eyes have always been dependable. However, if you offered me an explanation for why your perception is reliable, the consequences my mid perception might have, Oran explanation of how a previously reliable sense now longer is, then I'll go and investigate, talk to others and reconsider.

    During grad school I taught a class which the students were required to take and didn't want to. No one had been successful with it before, and I was given little guidance. I had no experience teaching at that level, but my emotional intelligence is decent and I thought I had a decent read on how people were responding in the class. When my reviews came out and were brutal, the devastation for me was not just embarrassment at having not delivered what my boss wanted, but rather that my perceptions were so off. I lost all confidence in anything I previously thought to be true about myself or my interactions with people. It was one of the scariest times in my whole life.

    Now, 8 or 9 years later, I can much better separate out what I was responsible for, and what I was not. The fact that I wasn't a perfect prof, wasn't the issue, but rather trying to figure out what was my faulty perception and what was factors which had nothing to do with my teaching ability.

  2. #1092
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Running away is always easier than confrontation. Gandhi said that and if he didn't...I did.
    'Consciousness is not simply a sensory-perceptual affair, a matter of mental imagery, as the contents of our mind would have us believe. It is deeply enmeshed with the brain mechanisms that automatically promote action readiness' - Jaak Panksepp

  3. #1093
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    I've done the literal door slam, have someone chase after me angrily and slam the door in their face hard.

  4. #1094
    Senior Member Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    You are mixing up two different criteria. Yeghor was addressing emotional factors: the tone of the other person's comment, feeling put-down, feeling hurt or becoming depressed because of their remarks, causing you to want to avoid them. What you describe here is the person's track record in providing worthwhile information, a much more objective measure. The two may be related, but are not the same, and should not be confused with each other. As you point out, a good friend can have a poor track record of giving reliable information. Conversely someone who seems (and maybe is) determined to put you down all the time may be perceptive enough to use truth as the tool. (The truth often hurts more, too.)
    I’m not entirely certain I know what you mean by ‘tone of the other person’s content’ and the like, I generally don’t pay as much attention to tone as I do to content. I’m inclined to say that I pay attention to emotional content (?) and I compare that content to everything else the person says/does (and everything they have said/done in my past experience of them, and probably many, many other factors as well).*

    I think the “you are fat” analogy might serve as an example of that which might be measured objectively and quickly. While there are contingencies which do make ‘source’ somewhat relevant (is the person saying it because they care about me? are they saying it to shame me/boost their own ego? etc.)- in the end, that doesn’t really affect whether or not the statement is true. It might affect how important I believe the information should be to me, but it doesn’t affect how true it is.

    A hypothetical example of the other end of the spectrum though (more along the lines of the ‘checking for wolf requires walking two miles’)- if someone points out how I’m not being fair, or if someone tries to give me feedback about how I ‘should’ react to something differently or how I 'should' perceive something differently. If my past experience of someone is that they rarely or never hand out suggestions like that cavalierly, they demonstrate consistent self-awareness and/or their judgment hasn’t proven clouded by their own defense mechanisms in this regard- then I’m going to put a lot more effort into evaluating how it could be the truth.

    On the other end, an example of what I may notice that makes me give someone’s opinion less weight in this regard: having a knee jerk tendency to explain what other people are doing wrong without really ever owning up to many flaws oneself, especially if those explanations are elaborate (and always about how someone else should accommodate); or providing ‘flaws’ about the self in some “I recognize I have flaws too” gesture- but the flaws they suggest they have themselves aren’t really commensurate. It’s not that I think this kind of thing stems from bad intentions or lack of earnesty (I usually assume people are as honest with themselves as they can handle in that moment), but ‘advice’ they give seems convoluted by their own (usually unconscious) needs. It implies one-sided expectations (along the lines of what yeghor said- it’s an imbalance in ‘power’). Even if there’s some truth to what they’re saying - at a certain point (once I’ve noticed a pattern) it becomes so distressing to even consider the information that I have to block ‘the source’ out altogether: not doing so would be akin to agreeing to eat something I’m 90% certain will give me food poisoning. That's exactly how I perceive “information” that will only cause a bunch of unwanted distraction/grief that I’m left sorting through because I was willing enough to give it a chance. <- I believe this is something Pe types struggle with understanding: bad ‘information’ can incite lasting sour affect that we can’t choose to simply forget.

    I wouldn’t consider that^ ‘objective’ criteria, but I wouldn’t say I dismiss according to ‘tone’ either. I want to say it has something to do with overall fairness of expectations in the interpersonal dynamic- if it seems like there’s an imbalance of some sort, that can’t be ignored. I won't even assume the other person has unreasonable expectations- I'll just know that I sense an incompatibility and that I should at least distance someone because of it. If the distress it causes builds up at a faster pace than I can begin to explain why I sense it, then I need to block them out entirely. And it really isn't about "liking someone" or "not liking someone", or even emotional tone: there are many people who don't set off these alarms who I don't especially like, and there are people who I do like but the mixed signals/inconsistent content ultimately become too distracting and I can't deal with them. [As an example, even though I don't really 'like' the tone yeghor has taken in this thread, I still agree with many points s/he has made (although it might not be the best example, because I can understand how this thread can be such a trigger). I can handle someone being angry or upset with me- I just really need for the content of what they're saying to make sense and be consistent/fair.]


    *I don’t consciously compare- it’s more like a background program that’s always on in my head, pulling up experiential data. In fact, I think the reason it’s so distressing (at times) to put up with inconsistencies is because it’s not a conscious process. I become immediately aware something isn’t adding up, without really knowing why or what it is. Certain people trigger this more than others, it sets off a series of internal alarms and the distraction of it can be overwhelming; something will seem unfair, and I’m left with a pile of extremely vague impressions to sort through and figure out. This is why we back away instead of saying something: the urgency to get away from a source can feel strong, the reason for the feeling is not immediately clear. This isn’t “unhealthy Ni run amok”. Ni is always vague, even when it’s spot on accurate.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  5. #1095
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    I think the bolded part does not match with what Z Buck meant...
    Only the second sentence referred to ZBuck's comments. The first referred to yours.

    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    I, for instance, classify the perspective/information source, not with regard to his/her reliability in terms of veracity of information/judgment but in terms of his/her hostility/friendliness towards me (friend or foe based on intent and previous rapport), as a preliminary evaluation...See below:

    From what I understand your preliminary evaluation consists of identifying whether the information is true or not...I do not know what further steps you take to analyze (different components of) the information...
    Yes, I try to judge by the truthfulness and usefulness of the information. Is it consistent with other things I know to be true? with information given me by others, or obtained elsewhere? is it internally consistent, or consistent with observable facts? When there isn't time for such an analysis, I am forced to give more weight to the provider of the info, but I do it by considering how reliable their information has been in the past.

    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    INFJ = 0.5 EC + 0.5 LC.... Perhaps yours is like INTJ = 0.2 EC + 0.8 LC ...which perhaps means you are much less susceptible to the emotional content of the communication/transmission...so I guess it has something to do with the difference in our internal/core framework...

    In this primitive model, INFJs framework is more inclined wrt INTJ to put more emphasis on EC...so a negatively charged hEC constitutes a much higher risk to fry my internal framework/core..
    An oversimplification, but not bad. I tend to discount what you term "emotional content" because, hard as it may be to determine the truth of someone's comments, I find this EC even harder to evaluate. I focus on the content I know how to interpret.

    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    So...how do you determine/know valuable input? in terms of content, quality, effect etc.?
    See above. Mostly consistency, agreement with information obtained through other sources, and ultimately utility.
    Last edited by Coriolis; 02-26-2014 at 01:20 AM. Reason: fixed quotes
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  6. #1096
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I’m not entirely certain I know what you mean by ‘tone of the other person’s content’ and the like, I generally don’t pay as much attention to tone as I do to content. I’m inclined to say that I pay attention to emotional content (?) and I compare that content to everything else the person says/does (and everything they have said/done in my past experience of them, and probably many, many other factors as well).*

    I think the “you are fat” analogy might serve as an example of that which might be measured objectively and quickly. While there are contingencies which do make ‘source’ somewhat relevant (is the person saying it because they care about me? are they saying it to shame me/boost their own ego? etc.)- in the end, that doesn’t really affect whether or not the statement is true. It might affect how important I believe the information should be to me, but it doesn’t affect how true it is.
    I don't really understand tone, either, but listed it as one of the things yeghor mentioned in his evaluation of what people say. See above about evaluating emotional vs. logical/factual content.

    The highlighted is correct. It's already been mentioned that people who care about you and have your best interests at heart don't always give good advice. Your tendency to trust them because of their intentions can therefore lead you quite astray. I do consider the source of information, but more in terms of background and expertise than intent or emotional content. I will trust the dentist's advice about my teeth more than that of my great-aunt Mildred, for instance. Even so, if it is a critical or high-stakes procedure, I will do more homework here as well.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  7. #1097
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Impression time. The last few days I've been thinking about this thread, trust, choices, talking, patterns, and goals. I was going to write a post about these things, but then something struck me: the words and phrases used by the INFJs posting in this thread. Words like survival, self-preservation, shame, harm, damage, dominate, and power-play. Strong words. Catastrophic words. All in response to being asked to consider listening to a different point of view that might not be flattering. And I thought, "What the heck are we so afraid of?", because I use these words, too. I tend to focus on the worst possible outcome. Why?

    Maybe my speculation in another thread about feeling powerless has some merit; I don't know:

    If you're looking for a more depersonalized answer, I can only offer speculation. Perhaps I'm more sensitive to certain signals that are present in interpersonal relationships. Perhaps I've learned to interpret those signals based on the very early relationships formed in my family and community when I was, essentially, a powerless child. Perhaps I then identify with being powerless unless I learn otherwise. Keep in mind that other people aren't as sensitive to the same signals, so perhaps I've also learned that trying to explain what I perceive is difficult. So, I end up creating my own interpretations and projections of behavior based on all of that--an Ni model that can be difficult to adjust once it's in place.

    So, perhaps I sacrifice my feelings because I feel powerless to do otherwise in order to keep the relationship running smoothly. Which is actually a bad Ni-model to use in personal, one-on-one relationships, because then I'm sacrificing instead of compromising and I will eventually resent that and the person I feel made me sacrifice, when in actuality, I'm the person making myself sacrifice. That's why I had to learn to take responsibility, to be accountable, for my own choices. That way I no longer feel powerless and I don't feel the need to blame other people for my own choices.
    So, is the doorslam a way to feel in control? To have some power in the relationship? A way to avoid being vulnerable, or making choices that we find unpleasant in some way?

    I stole this TED talk from someone's blog because I think Brene Brown has it right about vulnerability and connection. I think that's what happened with me when I took the chance and took another look at this thread and at @Mane.



    You know, everyone here is free to make their own choices. If you're fine with severing connections completely, or avoiding them in the first place, that's your choice. Own it instead of rationalizing it as being someone else's fault. Because if you want connections and want to keep them, it seems you have to be willing to be vulnerable. Slow processing times, trust issues, and low energy, notwithstanding.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  8. #1098

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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I’m not entirely certain I know what you mean by ‘tone of the other person’s content’ and the like, I generally don’t pay as much attention to tone as I do to content. I’m inclined to say that I pay attention to emotional content (?) and I compare that content to everything else the person says/does (and everything they have said/done in my past experience of them, and probably many, many other factors as well)....
    Subtext or Undertone may be used instead of Emotional Content perhaps...As you also said, alarm bells ring when an inconsistency between Literal Content and the Subtext/undertone Content is detected based on past experience...

  9. #1099

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    ...

    If you're looking for a more depersonalized answer, I can only offer speculation. Perhaps I'm more sensitive to certain signals that are present in interpersonal relationships. Perhaps I've learned to interpret those signals based on the very early relationships formed in my family and community when I was, essentially, a powerless child. Perhaps I then identify with being powerless unless I learn otherwise. Keep in mind that other people aren't as sensitive to the same signals, so perhaps I've also learned that trying to explain what I perceive is difficult. So, I end up creating my own interpretations and projections of behavior based on all of that--an Ni model that can be difficult to adjust once it's in place...

    http://lightshouse.org/lights-blog/p...on-of-children


    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    So, perhaps I sacrifice my feelings because I feel powerless to do otherwise in order to keep the relationship running smoothly. Which is actually a bad Ni-model to use in personal, one-on-one relationships, because then I'm sacrificing instead of compromising and I will eventually resent that and the person I feel made me sacrifice, when in actuality, I'm the person making myself sacrifice. That's why I had to learn to take responsibility, to be accountable, for my own choices. That way I no longer feel powerless and I don't feel the need to blame other people for my own choices.
    By doing that you start reclaiming your sense of self...you start looking after yourself as well...

    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    So, is the doorslam a way to feel in control? To have some power in the relationship? A way to avoid being vulnerable, or making choices that we find unpleasant in some way?
    No, doorslam is aimed at severing the parasitic connection/dynamic, which basically ends the relationship...or preemptively not allowing the connection to establish in the first place, having detected a parasitic pattern...On the contrary, I tend to lower my guard/defenses in my relationships, perhaps too much, to my detriment...

    ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    You know, everyone here is free to make their own choices. If you're fine with severing connections completely, or avoiding them in the first place, that's your choice. Own it instead of rationalizing it as being someone else's fault. Because if you want connections and want to keep them, it seems you have to be willing to be vulnerable. Slow processing times, trust issues, and low energy, notwithstanding.
    Both parties should be willing to be vulnerable...they should not try to strongarm each other...

    There's also the question of what to do if the other party is not willing to accept the severed connection?
    Last edited by yeghor; 01-14-2014 at 07:09 AM. Reason: Italics

  10. #1100
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    In the INFJ world, people are chosen or elected to fill a role and then are expected to play the part. Playing that part successfully or poorly is dependent upon the actions of the other. The role of sibling, friend, partner ... inside the mind are the things an INFJ thinks each role is supposed to be.

    For example, to be a successful friend, here's the list of things that are expected from you:

    1.) Listen to me as much as I listen to you.
    2.) Demonstrate goodwill towards me through acts of thoughtful consideration.
    3.) Approach me in the manner I prefer since that demonstrates your goodwill.

    etc etc.

    These criteria enable an INFJ to create a "scorecard" and continually measure whether or not the people around them are living up to the standards of "how a *insert role* is supposed to be". Because this can be measured, an INFJ can thus make decisions on how low the score gets to go before they make the proclamation that this person is a toxic, parasitic person and consequently should be cut from their life.

    It's all about power. The following quote is bang-on:

    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    So, is the doorslam a way to feel in control? To have some power in the relationship? A way to avoid being vulnerable, or making choices that we find unpleasant in some way?
    Yes, that's how I see it. It is about control, and it's not necessarily a bad thing because INFJ's often feel that powerless sense of not being able to have the external world structure to their preferences. It's easier for INTJ's because they are dealing with the object world and people don't form the locus of where they enact their control. But people ... people are so unpredictable. One day they do something the "right" way, the next day they don't. So people who are consistent are very prized in the IxFJ world because the ability to project what the people around them are most likely to do is very valuable to both Ni and Si. The results: IxFJ's surround themselves with the people most "right" for them. The downside really doesn't exist for the INFJ (aside from their chagrin when people disappoint them) but those who are close to them may feel like they must dance the IxFJ dance or be written off or worse, doorslammed.

    It's all about the power.

    An aside: The phrase toxic people is so dehumanizing imo. People can act toxic, and do toxic things, but that doesn't make them TOXIC people. Most people are just here on this earthly plane struggling along to be the best people they can be, dependent on all the programming instilled in them as children and the challenging life experiences they are working through and trying to grow from.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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