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  1. #1071

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Preoccupation with intent is a good way to avoid considering the content of what the other person is saying. If someone tells me, "You're being immature/irresponsible/a bully, etc." either there is some truth to it, or there isn't. Just because someone is trying to be disrespectful or aggressive doesn't mean there is nothing to be learned from what they say.

    I'm sure we've all heard the remark, "Out of the mouths of babes and fools . . . "
    Would you still wanna hang around or spend time with that person after that? Even when what he said may be true although the tone of delivery is aimed at putting you down in the relationship...?

    In your example there's already a power discrepancy disparity in the relationship...consider a case where the playing field is level and one of the parties try to tilt the field in his favor (a power play, attempt to dominate)...perhaps such an example would be able to better convey what I meant by the "intent"...

    For instance, if a friend calls me "he/she is fat" among friends out of spite...the information is true but the intent is dishonorable/malicious...I would get hurt, I might look at myself in the mirror and might even start a diet or might get depressed...but that does not mean I should have to keep hanging out the with the so-called friend...cause that's not what friends do in my book...

    However, if a friend tells me that he/she is worried about my extra pounds and tries to encourage me to go to a gym together, then his/her concern/advice I would most welcome (depending on the level of friendship perhaps)...

    So "intent" is the tie-breaker...
    Last edited by yeghor; 01-12-2014 at 02:59 PM. Reason: Italics added

  2. #1072
    Dope Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Would you still wanna hang around or spend time with that person after that? Even when what he said may be true although the tone of delivery is aimed at putting you down in the relationship...?

    In your example there's already a power discrepancy disparity in the relationship...consider a case where the playing field is level and one of the parties try to tilt the field in his favor (a power play, attempt to dominate)...perhaps such an example would be able to better convey what I meant by the "intent"...

    For instance, if a friend calls me "he/she is fat" among friends out of spite...the information is true but the intent is dishonorable/malicious...I would get hurt, I might look at myself in the mirror and might even start a diet or might get depressed...but that does not mean I should have to keep hanging out the with the so-called friend...cause that's not what friends do in my book...

    However, if a friend tells me that he/she is worried about my extra pounds and tries to encourage me to go to a gym together, then his/her concern/advice I would most welcome (depending on the level of friendship perhaps)...

    So "intent" is the tie-breaker...
    Is the way something is phrased a good indicator of intent in your opinion?
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  3. #1073

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    so that was fruitful. back to benter:

    yep, taking myself and our son out of her solipsist shit-pool is my interest.

    in the long term it is probably her interest. beyond just the idealistic notion that her well being is tied to our son's (she does love him, even if she cares for protecting her ego more), but in the end of the day, the absolute "best case" scenario for her desires is to keep us away from each other and go on lying to him until he's 18, procrastinating the need to look at herself by blocking out the perspectives from which she doesn't like the way she looks is only going to end up make it that much worse to look at herself when reality forces her too - having that much more damage to acknowledge causing, and by that time she'd have no ability to redeem herself in either my eyes or possibly her own. when it comes down to it, maintaining your ego on nothing but the basis of mentally blocking out every time you fuck up is one hell of a fragile cognitive dissonance.

    that's being said, her feeling good about herself isn't my main concern. if anything, i am concerned that she does, simply because i would rather my son not be raised by a person who believes they doe nothing wrong no matter what they do.
    He is her son as well, you are aware of that aren't you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    no, the people i mentioned have their own INFJ wars to care about, and weren't that active in the larger discussion continuum to know much of anything i posted elsewhere or "fight my wars" - i just generally find it rude to talk about people without doing a mention to the let them know, especially if it isn't a discussion they are active in.
    Sorry...I was wrong...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    you said only i can give you the information and fill the gaps, that statement was incorrect - the people who can fill the gaps and might want too are the INFJs and INFPs who have participated in these discussions for the last several years, but i personally would rather see how far you will be willing to build theories on the basis of absence when it conflicts with the conesus your Fe should be painfully becoming aware of in the back of your head. would you be able to connect your sense of "why is everyone behave like they know something i don't?" with your own assumptions? even more interesting though - would you be able to mentally dodge the obvious connection even after it is said outright here or would you still be able to mentally block yourself from walking in that avenue?
    Yes, there have been hints here and there in the replies that there are things that I have not been aware of...Why don't you shed light on them yourself? The only difference I can think of regarding you wanting those particular INFJs to convey the facts in your stead is that they also have witnessed your story 1st hand...that they know you, the ex-spouse and the child IRL...if they don't...there's no point in waiting for them because they would only be relaying to me what you told them about your situation...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    on a side note, i am curious if any of the INFJs would be able to mentally block information they already know in order to see your point from your perspective, and what form would it take (there is one in particular i expected to do so, but she isn't showing up to the party).
    I would not expect them to do...they would hold fast to their own conclusions/truths about your situation...they would, OTOH, point the flaws in my reasoning to me so that I could correct myself, rather than berating me for making an error of judgment...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    as you demonstrated above, all of these can teach me more then any attempt at genuine feedback on your part ever will. repeating & or linking shit i said elsewhere for your own personal sake - going on some wild goose chase that if only you knew enough your attitude towards evading conclusions that don't fit in your desired picture will change - isn't a burden, it isn't even a worthwhile goal to begin with. i've being on that marry go round.
    I loved you more in your first paragraphs...

  4. #1074

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    Is the way something is phrased a good indicator of intent in your opinion?
    Only one of the indicators...

    How do you decide if someone is acting with good or bad intent IRL?

  5. #1075
    Just a note... LittleV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    how to get an INFJ (younger then 50) to see themselves even from a perspective that has unfortunate implications for their ego?
    Like anyone: we each have our own beliefs on whether living in certain ways or having certain ideals would be fruitful for our temperaments. We are aware (particularly dominant intuitives) that there are infinite perspectives -- and that many of them are subjective/can only work depending on the person/situation. With that said... Ne types often enjoy coming up with a multitude of ideas that may not be relevant to Ni-users at specific points in time, who would often prefer to narrow concepts down to the common denominators when assessing patterns/feelings. I suppose that the main element that an Ni-user may owe the Ne-user in healthy relationships is apparent appreciation, as well as the ability to state that some perspectives may not be particularly valued to the Ni-user. The truth is... these would mainly be individual differences. The Ni-user would probably see many of your notions... but may not find it relevant/useful in his/her path, which may annoy you just as much as the Ni-user may be annoyed by you possibly adding in new ideas before a previous idea would be properly implemented. To INFJ's... it may not be the idea-stage -- and should you bring up alternate thoughts... they would happily be open to them if they would be related to the project (or pretty darn good, lol). At the end of the day, these 'issues' that you may have with INFJ's... other types may not have. As much as each relationship has their commonalities, each relationship is also different... which many people fail to see. Thus, it'd boil down to different values... and no one should change solely because someone else may think that his/her voice is more important; people frequently change their tactics when an old one would cease to be efficient/meaningful... or if another person, whom one may care about, may indicate that a certain strategy is harmful to him/her.

    If you must 'push' your perspective onto someone, or make sure that it's understood... indicate how it negatively makes you feel without sounding desperate. Or joke around with the idea... casually mentioning 'something' so that it may carefully seep through their filters. Be warned, though, that if you'd intend harm rather than merely intend to get another person to understand you... the INFJ will eventually catch on and not be very happy that s/he (or others) was potentially betrayed. I, personally, do not do well with (or think highly of) passive aggression with the intent to harm. Fe may maneuver, but Se would be direct; together, these people would often explicitly state most negative thoughts to their loved ones... or those they may have true, longstanding issues with that are not so easy to distance from. To be frank, we'd 'doorslam' (I don't like this word) those who'd try to get through to us in the previously-mentioned ways... because it may work and, if harmful, we'd need to think about our survival (for me, sometimes not so high on the list because I'm not neurotic). We can't help others as well when we're crippled. I'm only writing this because I sympathized with your pain, as well as to that of those in your similar position. Many times... we do not want to hurt those we distance ourselves from; we just cannot take some things anymore and must change terrains -- even if temporarily. During the last few weeks I was with my ex... I would just start to burst out crying out of nowhere because I knew what I had to do. He didn't catch on (I was hoping he would)... but I was also crying because I knew I wasn't strong enough to continue on the way he would have liked me to. I just couldn't do it anymore... and I felt a lot of guilt, even though he admittedly committed the most 'wrongs' in the relationship. I can honestly say that I was separating myself from the person I cared about most in this life. And although this does not still ring true... I know that I can depart from my perceived 'heaven.'


    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Be as kind as we can to one another without sacrificing self-preservation? Still working on that myself.
    I loved this. I don't think of self-preservation until I'm at the edge, which I am okay with because I'd want to test the limits of how much I can truly help... whether that'd be through soft compassion or tough love.

  6. #1076
    Dope Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Only one of the indicators...

    How do you decide if someone is acting with good or bad intent IRL?
    ^^I was actually trying to figure that out because I'm not sure I know. And it is something I consider. I do understand what Coriolis is saying very well...but I'm not that objective/calm/scientific. I've experienced the trauma of bad intentions enough in my life to know to be cautious (to not take my eye off of that ball.) At the same time I don't get as hung-up (<-not friendly phrasing there but it's past noon and I still haven't had enough coffee damn it) as I notice INFJs do. And so I assume there is something I'm taking for granted.

    I do not base much on how something is presented though. In fact, I'm more likely to be skeptical of individual's that add a lot of flowers and frill and gentleness to their messages. It makes me nervous because I don't read that stuff well. But I've seen INFJs in my time get burned to a crisp by someone that lied in a pretty way. And reject individuals with the best intentions but shitty manners...so I asked you about it. I really appreciate the answer.
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  7. #1077

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    ^^I was actually trying to figure that out because I'm not sure I know. And it is something I consider. I do understand what Coriolis is saying very well...but I'm not that objective/calm/scientific. I've experienced the trauma of bad intentions enough in my life to know to be cautious (to not take my eye off of that ball.) At the same time I don't get as hung-up (<-not friendly phrasing there but it's past noon and I still haven't had enough coffee damn it) as I notice INFJs do. And so I assume there is something I'm taking for granted.

    I do not base much on how something is presented though. In fact, I'm more likely to be skeptical of individual's that add a lot of flowers and frill and gentleness to their messages. It makes me nervous because I don't read that stuff well. But I've seen INFJs in my time get burned to a crisp by someone that lied in a pretty way. And reject individuals with the best intentions but shitty manners...so I asked you about it. I really appreciate the answer.
    Each burn adds new data that accumulates in INFJs' repertoire over time, which Ni-Ti then crunches into essential patterns...consider it like virus definitions that keep getting updated in your anti-virus software...

  8. #1078
    Dope Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Each burn adds new data that accumulates in INFJs' repertoire over time, which Ni-Ti then crunches into essential patterns...consider it like virus definitions that keep getting updated in your anti-virus software...
    That's a good way of putting it.
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  9. #1079
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleV View Post
    I loved this. I don't think of self-preservation until I'm at the edge, which I am okay with because I'd want to test the limits of how much I can truly help... whether that'd be through soft compassion or tough love.
    I was like that for a very long time. Now I've swung the other way. Maybe @Mane will be right and I can look forward to being more balanced and open in the next several years.

    I've come to consider myself mostly a free agent when it comes to relationships. The people I'm obligated to interact with are very few and people that are allowed to 'damage my calm' are even fewer. I can count them without using my toes and most of them are blood kin. I won't be shamed like I was for years by family, church, or society for looking after myself. I'm indispensable to a shrinking handful of people. Everyone else is just fine without me.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  10. #1080
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Would you still wanna hang around or spend time with that person after that? Even when what he said may be true although the tone of delivery is aimed at putting you down in the relationship...?

    In your example there's already a power discrepancy disparity in the relationship...consider a case where the playing field is level and one of the parties try to tilt the field in his favor (a power play, attempt to dominate)...perhaps such an example would be able to better convey what I meant by the "intent"...

    For instance, if a friend calls me "he/she is fat" among friends out of spite...the information is true but the intent is dishonorable/malicious...I would get hurt, I might look at myself in the mirror and might even start a diet or might get depressed...but that does not mean I should have to keep hanging out the with the so-called friend...cause that's not what friends do in my book...

    However, if a friend tells me that he/she is worried about my extra pounds and tries to encourage me to go to a gym together, then his/her concern/advice I would most welcome (depending on the level of friendship perhaps)...
    I am assuming no power disparity, but it is irrelevant in any case. How you handle the information and how you handle the person are two separate but obviously related decisions. If I need to lose some weight, that is true regardless of the intent of the person who told me so, and I should act on it. I may take further action toward the person if I felt the remark was mean or insensitive, but that is a separate step. There are four possible combinations:

    1. Comment is valid and made with ill intent
    2. Comment is valid and made with good intent
    3. Comment is invalid and made with ill intent
    4. Comment is invalid and made with good intent

    I, for one, can more easily gauge the validity of a comment than its intent, and so prefer at least to start there. I am not going to throw away valuable input just because I do not like the messenger, or his/her intent had nothing to do with my personal development.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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