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  1. #1061
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    From my perspective I told my coworker that he doesn't get to do that and get away with it...

    Here's some additional info on that event...I know the difference between friendly banter and an insult...My coworker was at that time not engaging in a playful banter but was attempting to ridicule me...That is exactly what I meant by style/method of delivery in my previous post...I know what I am...It's not that he called me "not normal" that I take offense at...it is rather "why" he called me that...the "intent" behind his words...the malice...That was what you were wrong about the first time you had interpreted my story...
    how do you know that was his intent? why would he have malice towards you or even care enough about you to have it in the first place?

    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    So we have arrived at the core of the problem...The intent...What's your intent in delivering a perspective that, in your own words, goes against/conflict with my ego? Do you aim to make me a better person for "myself" or for "yourself"...in other words...do you want to support me or subjugate me?
    already answered:
    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    not in order to break the INFJ, but simply to be able to engage them honestly & actually deal with the problems resulting from the various aspects of this horribly ill-mannered reality that did not stop to ask the respective INFJs/solipsists ego for permission to be true, whether it's me with my step son or the @BalanceFind with his household & assets or @LazerRedDive with her pregnancy or any of the dozens upon dozens of cases, and who knows, maybe even your co worker and childhood friend.
    the gist is that while you can choose to not look at your crap because you don't like how it makes you look (which you pretty much said out loud), the rest of the world still has to deal with it, and in some cases pretty much swim in it. while you might be unable to interpret the goal as anything but it's implication to you and thus making the INFJ feel bad about themselves, it's not, but at this point it's sure as hell an acceptable symptom - the world knows more important things than your ego.

    edit: i just realized @LazerRedDive particular baggage was more then 9 months ago.
    which is why...
    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    An absence of facts that only you can relieve...but are reluctant to do so...
    actually almost anyone who has been here longer can relieve it, if they really wanted too - and ruin my opportunity & pleasure while doing so in the process - since as it stands, right now seen how you dodge the information bits you do have that don't fit into your desired larger picture (like the answer to the question above among many others) is more likely to teach me about this sort of solipsist mentality then any attempt at genuine feedback (which you have had plenty of opportunity for btw).

  2. #1062
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    how do you know that was his intent? why would he have malice towards you or even care enough about you to have it in the first place?
    ^The same way you yourself recognize when someone tries to covertly/subtly ridicule you or insult you...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane
    ...not in order to break the INFJ, but simply to be able to engage them honestly & actually deal with the problems resulting from the various aspects of this horribly ill-mannered reality that did not stop to ask the respective INFJs/solipsists ego for permission to be true, whether it's me with my step son or...
    Quote Originally Posted by Mane
    regardless of how you perceive it, frame it or morally judge it, do you have any idea about how to break though an INFJs ego's walls and get them to understand things that conflict with their ego? is it even possible to do so with an INFJ (prior to their early late 40s / early 50s)?
    Regarding the method to employ so as to get INFJ out of defensive mode, see below:

    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor
    all he (Mane) can do is to display sincerity, honesty and genuine goodwill to his ex-partner...and hope that his efforts are reciprocated...like in ALL human interactions...

    His ex-partner needs to know that Mane is acting with good intent and has her best interests as well in his mind...
    Regarding how to circumvent the no-contact policy enacted by INFJ, see below:

    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor
    No there isn't any way (to re-establish contact), other than law (if viable) and/or harassment...
    ADDENDUM:

    Some further methods to overrule Ni-Ti conclusions:

    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor
    I need facts to understand...to overcome my ego in Mane's words...
    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor
    It would provide more info on the issue (more material for Ni to crunch)...It would allow me to form a clearer picture of the issue, a better model to see myself through as in Mane's words...
    Last edited by yeghor; 01-12-2014 at 06:16 AM. Reason: Addendum

  3. #1063
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    ^The same way you yourself recognize when someone tries to covertly/subtly ridicule you or insult you...
    assumptions assumptions....

    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Regarding the method to employ so as to get INFJ out of defensive mode, see below:
    yea that's just self-idealized bullshit. i tried that, i've seen others who try that, all of which where cases where the intent was completely genuine and the assumed malice was completely imaginary on the INFJ part. it never works.

    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Some further methods to overrule Ni-Ti conclusions:
    nope - tested and verified as wrong.

    you aren't building the walls because you think people are not being genuine, you are building it up because you are afraid that they are. again, i am looking for workable solutions for the cases where they are.

  4. #1064
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    assumptions assumptions....
    I was giving you an opportunity to empathize with me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    yea that's just self-idealized bullshit. i tried that, i've seen others who try that, all of which where cases where the intent was completely genuine and the assumed malice was completely imaginary on the INFJ part. it never works.
    How are you so sure of those? Can you expand on those please?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    nope - tested and verified as wrong.

    you aren't building the walls because you think people are not being genuine, you are building it up because you are afraid that they are.
    So you are saying that I do not like the reality they are projecting on me because it hurts/conflicts with my self image therefore I am raising the no-contact wall? I have also accused you of doing the same thing in the belowgiven quote...so what is this? a stalemate?

    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor
    By trying to distort/enforece/impose favourable reality onto yourself and others around? By trying to coerce/manipulate them into reflecting the image you want them to back at you so that the illusion you weaved can be maintained? By hating the faulty mirror for not doing that?
    However, I disagree with your interpretation because I do not have a problem with the image/perspective they are projecting on me but their "intent" for projecting that image...if I feel that the projection/mirroring is aimed at somehow shifting the power distribution in the relationship to themselves, i.e. at subjugating/patronizing/condescending me or elevating their own self image/social rank..then I raise up the walls... otherwise, I allow the perspective into my core and take it into consideration...

    I cannot think of any further advice that I can give to you...

  5. #1065
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mane
    not in order to break the INFJ, but simply to be able to engage them honestly & actually deal with the problems resulting from the various aspects of this horribly ill-mannered reality that did not stop to ask the respective INFJs/solipsists ego for permission to be true, whether it's me with my step son or the @BalanceFind with his household & assets or @LazerRedDive with her pregnancy or any of the dozens upon dozens of cases, and who knows, maybe even your co worker and childhood friend.

    the gist is that while you can choose to not look at your crap because you don't like how it makes you look (which you pretty much said out loud), the rest of the world still has to deal with it, and in some cases pretty much swim in it.
    So your intent is to look after your own interests, is that correct? Has your ex-partner not done anything to deal with this mutual problem? Like initiating a legal procedure or something? Your wording makes it sound as if you have been left to deal with the problems on your own?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    ...actually almost anyone who has been here longer can relieve it, if they really wanted too - and ruin my opportunity & pleasure while doing so in the process - since as it stands, right now seen how you dodge the information bits you do have that don't fit into your desired larger picture (like the answer to the question above among many others) is more likely to teach me about this sort of solipsist mentality then any attempt at genuine feedback (which you have had plenty of opportunity for btw).
    Oh come on...Don't cue people into fighting your war for you please...Are those mention tags aimed at summoning people to fight for you?

    Share your own information here on your own...It's your burden to bear...

  6. #1066
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    However, I disagree with your interpretation because I do not have a problem with the image/perspective they are projecting on me but their "intent" for projecting that image...if I feel that the projection/mirroring is aimed at somehow shifting the power distribution in the relationship to themselves, i.e. at subjugating/patronizing/condescending me or elevating their own self image/social rank..then I raise up the walls... otherwise, I allow the perspective into my core and take it into consideration...
    can you explain this part? in what sort of situations did you allow perspectives that conflict with your ego into your core and be taken into full consideration? what exactly is it about "how they did it" which made you made their mind about their intent? why is it that their intent matters in determining whether their information/conclusions/projections can be considered to be true?

  7. #1067
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    can you explain this part? in what sort of situations did you allow perspectives that conflict with your ego into your core and be taken into full consideration? what exactly is it about "how they did it" which made you made their mind about their intent? why is it that their intent matters in determining whether their information/conclusions/projections can be considered to be true?
    No I won't...

  8. #1068
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    No I won't...
    i am quite patient. when is your 50th birthday?

  9. #1069
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    so that was fruitful. back to benter:

    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    So your intent is to look after your own interests, is that correct? Has your ex-partner not done anything to deal with this mutual problem? Like initiating a legal procedure or something? Your wording makes it sound as if you have been left to deal with the problems on your own?
    yep, taking myself and our son out of her solipsist shit-pool is my interest.

    in the long term it is probably her interest. beyond just the idealistic notion that her well being is tied to our son's (she does love him, even if she cares for protecting her ego more), but in the end of the day, the absolute "best case" scenario for her desires is to keep us away from each other and go on lying to him until he's 18, procrastinating the need to look at herself by blocking out the perspectives from which she doesn't like the way she looks is only going to end up make it that much worse to look at herself when reality forces her too - having that much more damage to acknowledge causing, and by that time she'd have no ability to redeem herself in either my eyes or possibly her own. when it comes down to it, maintaining your ego on nothing but the basis of mentally blocking out every time you fuck up is one hell of a fragile cognitive dissonance.

    that's being said, her feeling good about herself isn't my main concern. if anything, i am concerned that she does, simply because i would rather my son not be raised by a person who believes they doe nothing wrong no matter what they do.

    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    So your intent is to look after your own interests, is that correct? Has your ex-partner not done anything to deal with this mutual problem? Like initiating a legal procedure or something? Your wording makes it sound as if you have been left to deal with the problems on your own?


    Oh come on...Don't cue people into fighting your war for you please...Are those mention tags aimed at summoning people to fight for you?

    no, the people i mentioned have their own INFJ wars to care about, and weren't that active in the larger discussion continuum to know much of anything i posted elsewhere or "fight my wars" - i just generally find it rude to talk about people without doing a mention to the let them know, especially if it isn't a discussion they are active in.


    you said only i can give you the information and fill the gaps, that statement was incorrect - the people who can fill the gaps and might want too are the INFJs and INFPs who have participated in these discussions for the last several years, but i personally would rather see how far you will be willing to build theories on the basis of absence when it conflicts with the conesus your Fe should be painfully becoming aware of in the back of your head. would you be able to connect your sense of "why is everyone behave like they know something i don't?" with your own assumptions? even more interesting though - would you be able to mentally dodge the obvious connection even after it is said outright here or would you still be able to mentally block yourself from walking in that avenue?
    on a side note, i am curious if any of the INFJs would be able to mentally block information they already know in order to see your point from your perspective, and what form would it take (there is one in particular i expected to do so, but she isn't showing up to the party).


    as you demonstrated above, all of these can teach me more then any attempt at genuine feedback on your part ever will. repeating & or linking shit i said elsewhere for your own personal sake - going on some wild goose chase that if only you knew enough your attitude towards evading conclusions that don't fit in your desired picture will change - isn't a burden, it isn't even a worthwhile goal to begin with. i've being on that marry go round.

  10. #1070
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    how do you know that was his intent? why would he have malice towards you or even care enough about you to have it in the first place?
    Preoccupation with intent is a good way to avoid considering the content of what the other person is saying. If someone tells me, "You're being immature/irresponsible/a bully, etc." either there is some truth to it, or there isn't. Just because someone is trying to be disrespectful or aggressive doesn't mean there is nothing to be learned from what they say.

    I'm sure we've all heard the remark, "Out of the mouths of babes and fools . . . "
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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