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  1. #1051
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    I disagree with you on that one...But assuming that's what he is saying...all he can do is to display sincerity, honesty and genuine goodwill to his ex-partner...and hope that his efforts are reciprocated...like in ALL human interactions...

    His ex-partner needs to know that Mane is acting with good intent and has her best intents interests as well in his mind...
    But she won't hear him. She will not allow that interaction to take place. Let's assume that Mane has demonstrated contrite goodwill - what is he to do now? iyo, is there a way to still get through to an INFJ in this scenario?

    I do not know what you meant by creature but it did not sound like anything positive?...I did not mean or word it as an insult Peacebaby...you are somehow inclined to take it as an insult...read it without any added sarcasm...Eilonwy said that she was not sure she had been able to convey her thoughts clearly...I was just trying to give her hints about Ti...her reasoning honestly does not come across to me as Ti-reasoning...
    I used the word creature rather playfully. I just talk silly like that sometimes, read little into it. And no, I didn't take it as an insult, I'm just not sure why you keep pressing on that button to suggest she is not an INFJ. Can you provide a rationale for why you are doing that?

    I can't see a reason to warrant that...?
    Why not?

    Yes Peacebaby, because he is not presenting further information that would contradict my conclusions...I am just waiting to be persuaded...It's like we are running in circles here because I feel like I am being forced to making the same explanations over and over again...and no I am not shouting at you here...
    Hmm, so you want him to tell you exactly what predicated the doorslam? Or something else?

    This is always my issue with a question like this - why must he prove he wasn't an ass to his ex here? I'm sure he has his share of responsibility for what went wrong. But you realize he could say ANYTHING to you right now anyway, right? Most folks are smart enough to be able to prove their case, especially on a forum like this, where they can cherry-pick what gets revealed.

    So, what will it really prove? It doesn't change the propensity of the INFJ to doorslam, does it?

    Even if I knew them irl, how much would I really know? People's lives behind closed doors are unknowable.

    Every INFJ I've heard talk about the doorslam speaks of it as a process ... usually not one thing but a looonng accretion of grievance. Otherwise, one massive indiscretion. You suspect that here?

    And I just realized something. Tell me if this is how you see it:

    Mane is guilty until proven innocent. A bad thing happened to him, so he must have done something to deserve it. And you see him as presenting a side of the story where you want to see proof that he was indeed some sort of victim in this situation.

    Because in his story, we are not getting any input from his wife here on the forum...All we know is what bits of information Mane shared about her...Why do you automatically side with him without even hearing the ex-partner's side of the story? Have you not witnessed any divorce cases in your life? You surely must know how nasty things can get between ex-partners, what they can tell to others about each other...How would you react IRL if an ex-husband of one of you female coworkers came and vented to you about how her ex-wife (your coworker) was such a closed-minded person...Would you automatically take the ex-husband's side without checking it with the coworker?
    The error is in thinking I have taken a side.

    I did not get angry at him for that...and why should there be a fault for me getting angry? Am I or any other INFJ not allowed to express emotion here in this thread? Wouldn't that constitute a double standard?
    Your emotions are very welcome here. I enjoy them. In fact, I totally appreciate them.

    I understand that there's a rift between INFPs and INFJs here, some kind of a cold war...I think that's why you are feeling so committed to his cause...you are somewhat identifying with him...?
    Yes, there are rifts between some INFP's and some INFJ's here. But I don't identify with Mane for that reason.

    Let me tell you how I feel right now, and I am saying this, not to hurt you, but to vent out my frustration...I honestly feel as if all I've said since page 95 has been falling on deaf ears...
    I feel your frustration and I know I am helping contribute to it. And I feel bad this thread was your entry point to this community. You must imagine you stepped into something you had no idea would blow up like this. I sincerely hope it hasn't been too terrible on you.

    Please, just tell me:
    -Do you have any chance to verify Mane's story? No
    -Do you have any chance to hear the ex-partner's side of the story? No
    -How can you identify with his case so strongly? I don't. I identify with his perspective on how INFJ's can close their perspective.
    -What do you hope to achieve for yourself and for INFJs by doing that? There is no goal.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  2. #1052
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    And where does all this take us? What's the condensed version of the conclusion to be drawn here?
    That @Mane started this thread several years ago already, when he was in a raw and fresh situation, looking for information to help him make sense of it all. Over the months, the responses have provided far more heat than light. This is at least in part because (some) people have personalized it in a way not intended, and taken offense at one person's (rather brave, in some ways) search for meaning. Better just not to engage with the topic, as Cafe did.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  3. #1053
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    And where does all this take us? What's the condensed version of the conclusion to be drawn here?
    Be as kind as we can to one another without sacrificing self-preservation? Still working on that myself.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  4. #1054

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    But she won't hear him. She will not allow that interaction to take place. Let's assume that Mane has demonstrated contrite goodwill - what is he to do now? iyo, is there a way to still get through to an INFJ in this scenario?
    No there isn't any way, other than law (if viable) and/or harassment...

    Consider it this way...Assuming the ex-spouse is an INFJ...She's digging her heels about something that she feels she's right/correct (compassionate about)...Now put yourself in her shoes...What would it take to convince you that the decision/feeling you committed yourself to is wrong? How would you like to be approached?

    Did you have any instances in your life that you did not want to communicate/interact with someone but he/she kept trying to interact/initiate contact with you? How did/would you feel in those instances?

    Or, what would cause you to initiate a no-contact policy with someone?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I used the word creature rather playfully. I just talk silly like that sometimes, read little into it. And no, I didn't take it as an insult, I'm just not sure why you keep pressing on that button to suggest she is not an INFJ. Can you provide a rationale for why you are doing that?
    Because I want to be able to better understand where she's coming from...The framework of her deductions...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Why not?
    There has not yet been any argument in the thread making me doubt that my conclusion is wrong...Other than cafe's...She commented on ex-spouse with so much conviction that I felt compelled to understand where she was coming from...I need facts to understand...to overcome my ego in Mane's words...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Hmm, so you want him to tell you exactly what predicated the doorslam? Or something else?

    This is always my issue with a question like this - why must he prove he wasn't an ass to his ex here? I'm sure he has his share of responsibility for what went wrong. But you realize he could say ANYTHING to you right now anyway, right? Most folks are smart enough to be able to prove their case, especially on a forum like this, where they can cherry-pick what gets revealed.

    So, what will it really prove? It doesn't change the propensity of the INFJ to doorslam, does it?
    Yes I am...It would provide more info on the issue (more material for Ni to crunch)...It would allow me to form a clearer picture of the issue, a better model to see myself through as in Mane's words...

    Yes he can (knowingly/unknowingly) manipulate the information he shares...It would at the very least prove that he is willing to cooperate with us, reciprocate the information we shared with him, that he is as willing to understand us as he is willing to make himself understood, that he is acting on goodwill...

    That he is also willing to put his hand under the rock, lest should the rock fall down...

    That he is here to eat grapes rather than to beat the vineyard keeper...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Even if I knew them irl, how much would I really know? People's lives behind closed doors are unknowable.
    It doesn't matter...How would you act in that case? How would you decide/feel on the issue...?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Every INFJ I've heard talk about the doorslam speaks of it as a process ... usually not one thing but a looonng accretion of grievance. Otherwise, one massive indiscretion. You suspect that here?
    Yes, that has been the case for me...I don't know about other INFJs, I think that's the same for them...Given Mane defined his case as a doorslam, I expect the same thing to have happened with the ex-spouse...I am basically saying..."Does not compute...need more data to evaluate..." It's an Ni or perhaps J thing I guess...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    And I just realized something. Tell me if this is how you see it:

    Mane is guilty until proven innocent. A bad thing happened to him, so he must have done something to deserve it. And you see him as presenting a side of the story where you want to see proof that he was indeed some sort of victim in this situation.
    No...His unwillingness to answer questions that would provide further clarification on his issue (more data to crunch) gives rise to suspicions in me that tell me that there's more to his case than meets the eye in his case, which makes him, imo, an untrustworthy person, which in turn compels me to doubt every word he says...Yes, I believe he sincerely believes he has been victimized, due to which he has been presenting the story (consciously or unconsciously) in a way that portrays him as the aggrieved...However, it is still inconclusive...it still does not compute...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    The error is in thinking I have taken a side.
    Sorry, I stand corrected then...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Your emotions are very welcome here. I enjoy them. In fact, I totally appreciate them.
    Likewise...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Yes, there are rifts between some INFP's and some INFJ's here. But I don't identify with Mane for that reason.
    -How can you identify with his case so strongly? I don't. I identify with his perspective on how INFJ's can close their perspective.
    What was your experience with INFJs in that regard?...Did you feel that your opinions/convictions could not get thru to them in some instances?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I feel your frustration and I know I am helping contribute to it. And I feel bad this thread was your entry point to this community. You must imagine you stepped into something you had no idea would blow up like this. I sincerely hope it hasn't been too terrible on you.
    I appreciate the gesture...but what I really need is cooperation not in word but in deed...

    When EsotericWench first started the thread, she was trying to understand about the phenomenon and what she can do to prevent it from happening in future...

    Consider the process like this...Someone steps on INFJ's toe...INFJ doesn't say "OUCH" assuming that it was only a one-time mistake...The said person steps on INFJ's toe again, INFJ doesn't say "OUCH" but looks at him/her to see the he/she is unaware of it (or worst, doing it on purpose)...INFJ frowns at the other, and tries to get back a little...The next time that person steps on INFJ's toe, INFJ walks away...

    Lessons learnt:
    -INFJ needs to be more vocal about his/her boundaries (runs the risk of being used as a teasing soft spot by immature people) so that INFJ can stop the doorslam process in its tracks...
    -The other party needs to be more aware of other people's (including the INFJ) boundaries, should get better at reading body language...
    -When the shit hits the fan (when doorslam happens) and INFJ is still willing to interact as a last resort to salvage the friendship, try to display your good intentions and good-will to salvage the relationship...I can deal with ignorance/unawareness, BUT
    -Don't engage in one-upmanship or try to establish a guilty party...Your intentions are of utmost importance at that moment...I cannot deal with malice...it's a NO NO...

    When I doorslam someone, it means that I have lost faith in the good-will of that person...So I feel at that point that the relationship cannot be salvaged...

    So it is basically about whether if any of the parties are willing to salvage the relationship...You cannot be friends with everyone after all...

    How does it feel/look from the doorslammee side?

  5. #1055

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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Be as kind as we can to one another without sacrificing self-preservation? Still working on that myself.
    Thanks for sharing your story about your granddad...

    Do you feel the policy you described above has been reciprocated by a majority of the people you encounter IRL?

  6. #1056
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    -INFJ needs to be more vocal about his/her boundaries (runs the risk of being used as a teasing soft spot by immature people) so that INFJ can stop the doorslam process in its tracks...
    and the boundary being any situation which results in..
    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    .And yes, I have examined their perspective...and I did not like the role they had for me in their perspective...
    ^ that?

  7. #1057

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    and the boundary being any situation which results in..

    ^ that?
    Yes...specifically when and where the style/method of delivery of the unfavorable outside perspective creates a power disparity in the relationship, which drifts the relationship away from a peer-to-peer relationship to a...I do not know...dictatorship?

  8. #1058
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I'm sure he has his share of responsibility for what went wrong.
    i've openly spoken about it so many times, you'd better be

    @yeghor - here's what (or rather - who) you keep missing:
    after your co worker laughed about you being weird & immature to the people in your work environment, there was another guy who then came along and proved to them that he was right. and that person is you. see the mentality behind doorslamming isn't truely knew to anyone, it is in fact a very familiar sight we have all experienced and seen in our childhood. everyone kid has done or seen the act of "lalalalaa i don't HEAR YOU!". that is the most likely mental association you brought up to your coworkers, in response to one of them accusation that you are immature. relatively to that, the first guy barely humiliated you as much as he opened the door for you to fully humiliate yourself, and you've done it with flying colors.

    likewise, right now you keep attempting to build arguments on the basis of what is absent. the problem is that you seem enable to stop and think about our situation - here you are in a place you barely know and haven't seen much of and yet your arguments are built solely on what you claim isn't there because you haven't seen it - repeatedly building arguments on the basis of absence. the problem is that most of everyone else has, again and again, and then you get frustrated with the result. at this moment, the only person trolling you is.. you.

  9. #1059
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Yes...specifically when and where the style/method of delivery of the unfavorable outside perspective creates a power disparity in the relationship, which drifts the relationship away from a peer-to-peer relationship to a...I do not know...dictatorship?
    yes... people not being allowed to have opinions and thoughts that do not stand in perfect line with your ego is them having a dictatorship over you

    look, we're going back to #2 on my list of boring self righteous shit. i really don't care. if you are honest about your boundary before people bond with you or put their trust in you, and they are still insane enough to establish any kind of relationship with you, then it's their own damn fault & responsibility for not thinking things through.

    regardless of how you perceive it, frame it or morally judge it, do you have any idea about how to break though an INFJs ego's walls and get them to understand things that conflict with their ego? is it even possible to do so with an INFJ (prior to their early late 40s / early 50s)?

  10. #1060

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    after your co worker laughed about you for being weird & immature to the people in your work environment, there was another guy who then came along and proved to them that he (my coworker) was right. and that person is you. see the mentality behind doorslamming isn't truely knew to anyone, it is in fact a very familiar sight we have all experienced and seen in our childhood. (Is this an attemp to ridicule?) everyone as a kid has done or seen the act of "lalalalaa i don't HEAR YOU!". that is the most likely mental association you brought up to your coworkers, in response to one of them accusation that you are immature. relatively to that, the first guy barely humiliated you as much as he opened the door for you to fully humiliate yourself, and you've done it with flying colors.
    From my perspective I told my coworker that he doesn't get to do that and get away with it...

    Here's some additional info on that event...I know the difference between friendly banter and an insult...My coworker was at that time not engaging in a playful banter but was attempting to ridicule me...That is exactly what I meant by style/method of delivery in my previous post...I know what I am...It's not that he called me "not normal" that I take offense at...it is rather "why" he called me that...the "intent" behind his words...the malice...That was what you were wrong about the first time you had interpreted my story...

    Furthermore, my ENTP buddy (who also have worked side-by-side with the said coworker for about 10 years and are friends with) had also been present and he also had gotten furious about my coworker's comment and felt the need to step in in my defense...From what I have observed from my buddy in about 14 years, he feels compelled to act that way when he feels someone (including me ) is acting cocky and arrogant from his perspective...Perhaps if there are any ENTPs reading the thread, they may provide further clarification on that...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    likewise, right now you keep attempting to build arguments on the basis of what is absent. the problem is that you seem enable to stop and think about our situation - here you are in a place you barely know and haven't seen much of and yet your arguments are built solely on what you claim isn't there because you haven't seen it - repeatedly building arguments on the basis of absence. the problem is that most of everyone else has, again and again, and then you get frustrated with the result. at this moment, the only person trolling you is.. you.
    An absence of facts that only you can relieve...but are reluctant to do so...

    So we have arrived at the core of the problem...The intent...What's your intent in delivering a perspective that, in your own words, goes against/conflict with my ego? Do you aim to make me a better person for "myself" or for "yourself"...in other words...do you want to support me or subjugate me?

    Are you here in the vineyard to eat some grapes or beat the vineyard keeper?

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