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  1. #1041
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Oh yeghor - I like your energy. But what am I going to do with you? If you're not up to being challenged, say so now and I will step away.

    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    You missed me on this part? Oh you mean the Murtaugh meme...No it wasn't aimed at you
    No, she meant that Mane was referring to people over 50 as being in a space where they can more capably examine this blindspot. If you look at Eilonwy's profile, you will see that she is over that age.

    I beg to differ...He's saying: "INFJs are X and if they are not willing to accept or unable to see that they are X, then all that also proves my point that INFJs are X..."...It's a circular logic...It's a case of "Damned if I do, damned if I don't"...
    No, that's not what he's saying. He's saying, "My experience with one INFJ was this. Please tell me that this was an isolated incident. I'm not hopeful it was anymore now that I have read this thread, because I can see that other people have had a similar experience. It looks like it might be a pattern. Either way, is there anything I could do to have tenable relations with my ex-partner and still see the boy I consider my son?"

    You can use analogies, symbols to construct a linear pathway for your reasoning...I guess Ti users (like me) can follow that much easier...I don't know how I can remold my reasoning for better understanding by Fi-users...I am open to your suggestions on that...
    You're quite the insulting creature, you know that? Eilonwy IS an INFJ. It's actually considered quite rude to repeatedly question a person's self-typing regardless. Perhaps you could at least improve your manners in this regard.

    Trust me, I'm an Fi user and I am following your reasoning flawlessly. The problem is is that your reasoning in this situation is flawed. And, the fact that you are unwilling to go back and re-reason it out is the fundamental premise of this thread. You are quite markedly trying to support your initial conclusions by doing things like pushing people into alternate types, and providing all other manner of justification as to why the puzzle pieces are no longer fitting as well as the post you made as first entry into this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Strange...I've always imagined those with strong Fi to be much more vindictive...
    The operative word here is "imagined".

    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Or perhaps they people with strong Fi also happen to have a...blindspot...
    You also win the "Captain Obvious" award of the day.

    To me, the issue is one of Ti. It's your tertiary function, a comfort function, a weak function. A tripping point. Here's what I see as happening - you read through this thread, filled in many of the logic-gaps with your own data to make the story make "sense", had a visceral Fe reaction to this imagining of what must have been "wrong" with Mane to have predicated the "doorslam" and proceeded to address him from that subjective perspective presented as an objective one. Since you saw the "doorslam" as the outcome, you concluded he must have done something WRONG to make it happen. Because he vented emotional data, it made it even harder for you to detach, amping up your Fe reaction.

    iow, to me you too fully assumed the role of Mane's ex-partner. That's not what he was asking anyone to do. He needed an INFJ who could be way more detached than that. To look past the emo-meltdown and try to "Ti" things out in this situation to make sense again. It's not anyone's fault you assumed the INFJ emotions and became angry at him for feeling that way. But you do have control over what you choose to dish back. As an INFJ, to me that means you need to be able to use your Fe to suss out that Ti truth from his perspective too. Not just YOURS. If you were Mane, and you were treated that way, how would it feel? How can you help? Do you have advice?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  2. #1042

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    No, that's not what he's saying. He's saying, "My experience with one INFJ was this. Please tell me that this was an isolated incident. I'm not hopeful it was anymore now that I have read this thread, because I can see that other people have had a similar experience. It looks like it might be a pattern. Either way, is there anything I could do to have tenable relations with my ex-partner and still see the boy I consider my son?"
    I disagree with you on that one...But assuming that's what he is saying...all he can do is to display sincerity, honesty and genuine goodwill to his ex-partner...and hope that his efforts are reciprocated...like in ALL human interactions...

    His ex-partner needs to know that Mane is acting with good intent and has her best intents interests as well in his mind...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    You're quite the insulting creature, you know that? Eilonwy IS an INFJ. It's actually considered quite rude to repeatedly question a person's self-typing regardless. Perhaps you could at least improve your manners in this regard.
    I do not know what you meant by creature but it did not sound like anything positive?...I did not mean or word it as an insult Peacebaby...you are somehow inclined to take it as an insult...read it without any added sarcasm...Eilonwy said that she was not sure she had been able to convey her thoughts clearly...I was just trying to give her hints about Ti...her reasoning honestly does not come across to me as Ti-reasoning...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    And, the fact that you are unwilling to go back and re-reason it out is the fundamental premise of this thread.
    I can't see a reason to warrant that...?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    You are quite markedly trying to support your initial conclusions by doing things like pushing people into alternate types, and providing all other manner of justification as to why the puzzle pieces are no longer fitting as well as the post you made as first entry into this thread.
    Yes Peacebaby, because he is not presenting further information that would contradict my conclusions...I am just waiting to be persuaded...It's like we are running in circles here because I feel like I am being forced to making the same explanations over and over again...and no I am not shouting at you here...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    To me, the issue is one of Ti. It's your tertiary function, a comfort function, a weak function. A tripping point. Here's what I see as happening - you read through this thread, filled in many of the logic-gaps with your own data to make the story make "sense", had a visceral Fe reaction to this imagining of what must have been "wrong" with Mane to have predicated the "doorslam" and proceeded to address him from that subjective perspective presented as an objective one.
    No, I had formed a model about his situation from his posts and then actually gave him chance to clarify his story, which he chose to ignore...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Since you saw the "doorslam" as the outcome, you concluded he must have done something WRONG to make it happen.
    Well, it requires "something wrong" to have happened in the first place for INFJs to resort to doorslamming, assuming what we are talking about in Mane's case is indeed an INFJ-doorslam..."Something wrong" is the core cause of the doorslam measure...I asked him to clarify "something wrong" but he refused to do that...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Because he vented emotional data, it made it even harder for you to detach, amping up your Fe reaction.
    Simply no...It was his unwillingness to cooperate/reciprocate...It also did not make it harder for me to detach...but made me even more suspicious of the veracity of his story...

    iow, to me you too fully assumed the role of Mane's ex-wife. That's not what he was asking anyone to do. He needed an INFJ who could be way more detached than that.
    Because in his story, we are not getting any input from his wife here on the forum...All we know is what bits of information Mane shared about her...Why do you automatically side with him without even hearing the ex-partner's side of the story? Have you not witnessed any divorce cases in your life? You surely must know how nasty things can get between ex-partners, what they can tell to others about each other...How would you react IRL if an ex-husband of one of you female coworkers came and vented to you about how her ex-wife (your coworker) was such a closed-minded person...Would you automatically take the ex-husband's side without checking it with the coworker?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    To look past the emo-meltdown and try to "Ti" things out in this situation to make sense again. It's not anyone's fault you assumed the INFJ emotions and became angry at him for feeling that way.
    I did not get angry at him for that...and why should there be a fault for me getting angry? Am I or any other INFJ not allowed to express emotion here in this thread? Wouldn't that constitute a double standard?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    But you do have control over what you choose to dish back. As an INFJ, to me that means you need to be able to use your Fe to suss out that Ti truth from his perspective too. Not just YOURS.
    Yes, I would...if only he answered my questions so that I can fill the gaps you had mentioned with something tangible...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    If you were Mane, and you were treated that way, how would it feel? How can you help? Do you have advice?
    I have already been treated that way in the thread As for his grievance, I already gave my advice in the first paragraph...

    I understand that there's a rift between INFPs and INFJs here, some kind of a cold war...I think that's why you are feeling so committed to his cause...you are somewhat identifying with him...?

    Let me tell you how I feel right now, and I am saying this, not to hurt you, but to vent out my frustration...I honestly feel as if all I've said since page 95 has been falling on deaf ears...

    Please, just tell me:
    -Do you have any chance to verify Mane's story?
    -Do you have any chance to hear the ex-partner's side of the story?
    -How can you identify with his case so strongly?
    -What do you hope to achieve for yourself and for INFJs by doing that?

  3. #1043
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Mane's ex is a crazy jerk, IMO. I would never defend her. OTOH, even though I like him fine, I don't want to be on the receiving end of what I perceive as his unresolved feelings, so I avoid engaging him on topics like this.

    I know I have issues and need to improve how I deal with people. I'll work on it as I see fit. It's not my top priority right now. I'm a touchy, avoidant person and I am mostly okay with that.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  4. #1044

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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Mane's ex is a crazy jerk, IMO. I would never defend her. OTOH, even though I like him fine, I don't want to be on the receiving end of what I perceive as his unresolved feelings, so I avoid engaging him on topics like this.

    I know I have issues and need to improve how I deal with people. I'll work on it as I see fit. It's not my top priority right now. I'm a touchy, avoidant person and I am mostly okay with that.
    This really made me feel like I am missing something here...Do you know his ex IRL?

  5. #1045
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    This really made me feel like I am missing something here...Do you know his ex IRL?
    You don't take someone's kid away unless they are beating the shit out of you and I don't assume Mane was beating the shit out of his ex. I could be wrong. I've been wrong before. But he doesn't strike me (lol) as that kind of person.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  6. #1046

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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    You don't take someone's kid away unless they are beating the shit out of you and I don't assume Mane was beating the shit out of his ex. I could be wrong. I've been wrong before. But he doesn't strike me (lol) as that kind of person.
    So you don't know her IRL...The kid is ex-wife's AFAIK btw...? Mane is step-father...?

  7. #1047
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    So you don't know her IRL...The kid is ex-wife's AFAIK btw...? Mane is step-father...?
    Like my grandpa was my step-grandpa? And I adored him and he adored me and he is why I, as a poor bastard child, learned to have self-esteem and to expect to be treated well by men?

    And I suspect I know his ex as well as you do. We're all just projecting here.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  8. #1048

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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Like my grandpa was my step-grandpa? And I adored him and he adored me and he is why I, as a poor bastard child, learned to have self-esteem and to expect to be treated well by men?

    And I suspect I know his ex as well as you do. We're all just projecting here.
    And where does all this take us? What's the condensed version of the conclusion to be drawn here?

  9. #1049
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Wow! All of these judgements flying around.

    Personally, I can't comment on Mane's ex-wife. From some of his past posts, he talked highly of her at times, said he still loved her and would take her back, so I'll assume that she's just a flawed human being and not some monster. Just like he's a flawed human being and not some monster. Maybe if we start from those assumptions, instead of demonizing one or the other of them, we'll all get a more realistic picture. More gray than black and white. These are PEOPLE we're talking about. Not diagnoses. Not case studies to be picked apart. Multidimensional people.

    And one of those two people has to read all of this crap about himself from people who haven't taken the time to get to know him as another human being in order to get a sense of who he actually is before judging him or analyzing him or diagnosing him (I'm just as guilty of doing all of this, btw). And, imo, he's been amazingly patient for the last two years. More patient than I would have been in his place. I've talked with him some through PM and VM and he has never once been sarcastic to me in those conversations. He's never blasted me with unresolved feelings. There is a whole other side to him apart from the sarcasm. Too many assumptions. Too much armchair psychology. Not enough talking as human beings.


    ETA: As for the whole Ti issue--First, I was under the impression that the first two functions would be the ones I mainly use, so you should be getting a good dose of NiFe from me, especially since I'm once again answering on the fly and going with my more emotional responses. Second, if I wanted a Ti debate, I would seek out the INTPs. I've explained elsewhere that, because of my real life responsibilities and my huge lack of knowledge, I'm not very inclined to do the Ti debate thing. I'm more inclined towards discussion. I'm sure there are other people who will oblige with the Ti, though, so have at it.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  10. #1050
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    @Eilonwy - yes, you and a couple of others, one of which i sort of want to see if he'll correct me that he is 48 straight away after reading that post prior to reading this one.. i'll see what happens

    also:
    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    Personally, I can't comment on Mane's ex-wife. From some of his past posts, he talked highly of her at times, said he still loved her and would take her back
    that was a long time ago, and was probably true at the time. today i'm not even sure if i would be able to be with her if it was the only means to get to my son (i'd like to think i would, but realistically i doubt it is sustainable).

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Mane's ex is a crazy jerk, IMO. I would never defend her. OTOH, even though I like him fine, I don't want to be on the receiving end of what I perceive as his unresolved feelings, so I avoid engaging him on topics like this.
    because i said you are both irish isn't it? ok bad joke, but i think i should clarify this, since i think their was a confusion about this in one of the other threads where some of the INFJs complained about feeling trapped: i completely respect the choice to not engage the topic. the most basic assumption i am working with is that we're all adults making a choice to participate in the conversation. i have little to no problem with people choosing not too.

    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    What I understand from your question is this: "how to make an INFJ admit to/acknowledge something I claim about the INFJ that would hurt the INFJ's ego/core self/core values/sense of self?"
    actually from your perspective - yes - that is exactly what i am asking:

    not in order to break the INFJ, but simply to be able to engage them honestly & actually deal with the problems resulting from the various aspects of this horribly ill-mannered reality that did not stop to ask the respective INFJs/solipsists ego for permission to be true, whether it's me with my step son or the @BalanceFind with his household & assets or @LazerRedDive with her pregnancy or any of the dozens upon dozens of cases, and who knows, maybe even your co worker and childhood friend.
    the gist is that while you can choose to not look at your crap because you don't like how it makes you look (which you pretty much said out loud), the rest of the world still has to deal with it, and in some cases pretty much swim in it. while you might be unable to interpret the goal as anything but it's implication to you and thus making the INFJ feel bad about themselves, it's not, but at this point it's sure as hell an acceptable symptom - the world knows more important things then your ego.

    edit: i just realized @LazerRedDive particular baggage was more then 9 months ago.

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