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  1. #1031

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    Self discovery, sincerity and enlightenment..?
    Cheers...

  2. #1032
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    .And yes, I have examined their perspective...and I did not like the role they had for me in their perspective...
    yep, that's is pretty much it. you ask for the theory & attempted to dispute it - but that's it right there, and not the first horse to mouth it either. the core mechanic under examination is exactly that very mental reaction. the theory IS that when a perspective places you in a role you find disagreeable you would not be able to see yourself through it.

    the rest is quite frankly all too boring:
    • these debates keeps shifting towards revolving around this very pattern which various behaviors allude too, the INFJs in turn keep being under the impression that they are being associated with a particular behavior and then react by trying to redefine the behaviors to not fit anything they've done,, not quite catching that in attempting to disassociate from the pattern they are enacting it.
    • when it finally comes out the desires to get a better grasp of the mentality becomes a possible tension breaker rather then a tension maker, and that is usually when it gets addressed, except the INFJs see the expectation for explanations as an avenue to provide self justification rather then self understanding, which in turn shifts the debate from the nature of the phenomena to whether it is justified, so ofcourse they end up feeling on trial because its now their justification which is under attack, the resulting image presented isn't of a type of people that tends to be just but rather a type of people that will feel justified no matter what they do.
    • as the debates shift to extrapolate from the mental reaction and the various ramifications, it naturally ends up bringing more conclusions that put you in an even more negative light, creating more perspectives from which you don't want to see yourself as, since the flip side of the coin is that when a perspective sheds a negative light on you you unwilling to see yourself in it regardless if it's real or not thus putting your entire self image into doubt, which you ofcourse have to mentally dodge even further, but in turn reinforcing the pattern further, rinse and repeat.


    (note: "the INFJs" refer to the side of the debate more so then any actual topological demographic)

    same old bullshit and mess of misunderstandings autoplaying on an endless repeat, and i quite honestly don't care about most of it beyond the ramifications to my son and my personal choice to not trust anyone of this sort of solipsist mentality further then i can throw them (regardless of MBTI type). what i am interested in is a loophole - how to get an INFJ (younger then 50) to see themselves even from a perspective that has unfortunate implications for their ego? <- that is my question, and has being the question for quite sometime. the rest is just bad animal husbandry.

  3. #1033

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    ...what i am interested in is a loophole - how to get an INFJ (younger then 50) to see themselves even from a perspective that has unfortunate implications for their ego? <- that is my question...
    What I understand from your question is this: "how to make an INFJ admit to/acknowledge something I claim about the INFJ that would hurt the INFJ's ego/core self/core values/sense of self?"

    You are basically asking us how to break the INFJ's ego???

    Well, ask that question to yourself (reverse the roles), voila...you already have the answer...

  4. #1034
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Self discovery, sincerity and enlightenment..?
    Cheers...
    Well, if that's what you got from what I wrote, I guess I'll take it as a compliment. I was hoping my experiences and conclusions would also serve as informative, but if it ends up that I'm the only one who benefits from all of it, well then, good for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    What I understand from your question is this: "how to make an INFJ admit to/acknowledge something I claim about the INFJ that would hurt the INFJ's ego/core self/core values/sense of self?"

    You are basically asking us how to break the INFJ's ego???

    Well, ask that question to yourself (reverse the roles), voila...you already have the answer...
    Since I'm fairly certain that the qualification of age is in reference to me, and I've gone through the process of trying to answer Mane's question, I think I can safely say that he is not asking us how to break the INFJ ego in the way that I hear you saying it. Of course, I could be hearing you wrong, but I'll forge ahead anyway. It wasn't a pleasant, fun process--to examine myself and deal with the feelings that came up--but, in the end, I don't feel broken. In a lot of ways, I feel stronger. Or, to use the word that you did...enlightened. My ego is still very much intact (and actually still inflates quite nicely at times, which needs to be kept in check ).

    And, I don't think he's asking anyone to admit to or acknowledge anything that he's claiming. I misunderstood fidelia's earlier question about @Mane's intent, so my last post (the one you referenced as "Self discovery, sincerity and enlightenment..?") answered the wrong thing. My take on his intent (and he's free to correct me if I'm wrong) is that he is simply gathering data for use in his own situation. Nothing more than that. When he first came to the forum, he actively asked for that data. After a time, he stopped actively asking, but was willing to listen to anyone who wanted to offer new data. If all that's being offered is the same old stuff, then he's done wasting his time on that.

    But, instead of interpreting his initial request as asking for data--as an invitation to look at our own blind spots and see what data came up, whether it agreed with his theory or not--we (me included) seemed to be interpreting it as an attack and went on the defensive. And, the fact that we did this, instead of getting past the emotion of his initial post, indirectly provided him with data that confirmed his worst fears about us. He's said it several times--he would rather we prove him wrong because that would mean his own situation isn't as dire as he thinks it is. But proving him wrong means looking honestly at our own blind spots, and I don't see a whole lot of us doing that because we misinterpreted what he was asking, and weren't curious enough to set ourselves aside and talk to him without feeling defensive, long enough to get past both his and our communication barriers, so that we could reach some sort of understanding. Again, he's not asking us to admit to or acknowledge anything that he's saying unless we look at ourselves and discover that it's true.

    I have the feeling that I'm still not explaining this in a way that will get it through in the way that I now understand it.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  5. #1035
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    I've tried to door slam people, but then I forget I'm mad at them or they do something nice for/to me and I totally forget I dislike them

  6. #1036
    The Dark Lord The Wailing Specter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    I've tried to door slam people, but then I forget I'm mad at them or they do something nice for/to me and I totally forget I dislike them
    Sounds like what I do when dealing with others. Fi thing, I guess...
    Enneagram: 6w7 (phobic) > 2w1 > 9w1
    Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
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    Date of Birth: March 15, 1996
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    Political Stance: Libertarian Liberal (Arizona School/Strong BHL)
    ATHEIST UNITARIAN UNIVERSALIST HUMANIST
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    I say this as a reminder to myself, but this goes for everyone:

    You can achieve anything you set your mind to, and you are limited only by how dedicated you are to succeed!

    -Magic Qwan

  7. #1037

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post

    Since I'm fairly certain that the qualification of age is in reference to me...
    You missed me on this part? Oh you mean the Murtaugh meme...No it wasn't aimed at you ...It was about my comment on my boundaries becoming more rigid over the years...

    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    ...My take on his intent (and he's free to correct me if I'm wrong) is that he is simply gathering data for use in his own situation. Nothing more than that...
    NSA is also simply gathering data...

    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    ...Again, he's not asking us to admit to or acknowledge anything that he's saying unless we look at ourselves and discover that it's true...
    I beg to differ...He's saying: "INFJs are X and if they are not willing to accept or unable to see that they are X, then all that also proves my point that INFJs are X..."...It's a circular logic...It's a case of "Damned if I do, damned if I don't"...

    You can use analogies, symbols to construct a linear pathway for your reasoning...I guess Ti users (like me) can follow that much easier...I don't know how I can remold my reasoning for better understanding by Fi-users...I am open to your suggestions on that...

    I wish I could share your optimism...All I can tell you is "Time will tell..."

    Thanks for sharing your thoughts...
    Last edited by yeghor; 01-11-2014 at 01:28 PM. Reason: Clarification

  8. #1038

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Qwan View Post
    Originally Posted by prplchknz
    I've tried to door slam people, but then I forget I'm mad at them or they do something nice for/to me and I totally forget I dislike them
    Sounds like what I do when dealing with others. Fi thing, I guess...
    Strange...I've always imagined those with strong Fi to be much more vindictive...

  9. #1039
    The Dark Lord The Wailing Specter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Strange...I've always imagined those with strong Fi to be much more vindictive...
    Vindictiveness is a tertiary Fi thing... IxTJ's
    Enneagram: 6w7 (phobic) > 2w1 > 9w1
    Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
    Holland Code: AIS
    Date of Birth: March 15, 1996
    Gender: Male
    Political Stance: Libertarian Liberal (Arizona School/Strong BHL)
    ATHEIST UNITARIAN UNIVERSALIST HUMANIST
    and
    SCIENCE ENTHUSIAST


    I say this as a reminder to myself, but this goes for everyone:

    You can achieve anything you set your mind to, and you are limited only by how dedicated you are to succeed!

    -Magic Qwan

  10. #1040

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Qwan View Post
    Vindictiveness is a tertiary Fi thing... IxTJ's
    Or perhaps they people with strong Fi also happen to have a...blindspot...
    Last edited by yeghor; 01-11-2014 at 01:17 PM. Reason: for clarity...

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