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  1. #1021

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    Originally Posted by yeghor

    I sense a lot of rage, projection, gaslighting, denial etc. behaviour in your posts...you seriously refuse to see reason and are stuck in your views...I really think you should do a reality check IRL to identify that I am, hopefully, mistaken...
    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis
    The same might be said of yours. You have no doubt heard the advice given to fiction authors, that it is better to show than to tell.
    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I am not trying to make a case for @Mane displaying "rage, projection, gaslighting, denial etc. behaviour . . .you seriously refuse to see reason and are stuck in your views".

    These are so far just your unsubstantiated opinions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I am surprised you are reading nonexistent "tone" into my post if the quote above truly reflects your inclination. On the other hand, it would be consistent with the examples I cited above.
    What you said in your first post and the second are close but do not match...In your first post you say rage, projection, gaslighting, denial etc. were also evident in my posts...In you second one you say that I am voicing out unsubstantiated opinions...There's a discrepancy here...Your abrupt and "unsubstantiated" judgment in your first post gave me the impression that you somehow jumped the gun and made an uninformed/incomplete judgment without reading my previous posts, hence my comment about the negative tone...

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    For someone who claims to prefer facts over emotional content, you are quick to attribute feelings and intentions to others, rather than focus on just the facts provided.
    I prefer facts over subjective data so I can analyze the data on my own, when people are willing to provide facts that is...when they ignore some points of my posts, deliberately focus on/emphasize some others, ignore my questions and do not provide the facts I need, i.e. the way they interact with my posts also gives me some suspicions about what's going on so I inquire the respective poster so that they can clarify/verify/deny it...so that I can get more (underlying?) facts about the issue...

    I think this is a Ni-Ti process...I don't know how that works for INTJs...Ni-Fi?....What's wrong with this by the way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    A more minor point: you are also quick to question the type of others whom you know far less than the person offering the typing.
    What's wrong with that? I mistyped myself at first by the way a couple of years ago...Perhaps I am still?

    Esoteric Wench, you somehow felt a need to step in in Eilowyn's defense...
    Esoteric Wench totally ignored (did not engage) my post and focused on Eilonwy's post just after I criticized Eilonwy...

    I think you are hindering the discussion by playing favorites
    Esoteric Wench totally ignored (did not engage) my post and focused on Eilonwy's post just after I criticized Eilonwy...

    I think you are trying too hard to see that you are seeing that what's not there
    I assumed Mane's hurt in his posts were engaging Eilonwy's sympathies...and she was thinking that if his hurt is genuine so must be his account of events, which is not necessarily a true conclusion in the absence of tangible facts...given the accusations of double standard applied to Mane (regarding his tone being questioned but not mine), I think my assumption was not that off...

    He wants us to swallow a bitter pill
    Mane wants us to accept that INFJs who resort to doorslamming they are somehow flawed/closed-minded etc...hence the bitter pill...

    I see this tendency to form fellowships/alliances (taking sides) rather than discussing the issues..
    Esoteric Wench and Peacebaby congratulating Eilonwy on a job well done while basically ignoring my detailed posts...

    You are disregarding any insight offered to you by INFJs here because, I believe, you are mistakenly associating them with your ex-wife
    He was repeating the same thing over and over again and was dismissing any insight offered to him by INFJs in the thread as well as failing to provide further info in response to their questions...

    This makes me even more suspicious that you are an actually an INFP
    Eilonwy was more inclined to react/respond to the emotional contents of the posts by me and Mane...She made a similar comment about that herself too...On emotional level, I guess I have been giving the impression of an insensitive brute pouncing on a hurting guy mercilessly...

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    First, I will point out that I think Mane is not a native speaker of English. (This is not meant at all as a criticism, especially since I cannot express myself in any non-native language as well as he can in English!) It just means sometimes I'm not sure of the exact details he is describing, though I generally get the main point, and watch carefully in ensuing discussion for anything I may have misinterpreted. Having read many posts from Mane over the months, I may just be more used to how he writes than a newer member would be.
    That was my guess too...

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    That being said, the big picture/pattern I get from this is: Mane was experiencing alot of distraction and stress in a relationship, to the point where it was impacting his ability to get things done. He made the effort to analyze the situation, which showed him that his natural manner of sharing information was coming across to the other person as conflicting signals and/or indecision, causing her to be stressed and upset. He therefore identified a solution, namely to adjust his presentation style better to match the woman's hearing style. The even more top level picture: Mane identified a problem, analyzed the problem, and came up with a solution.

    Since this problem involved another person, it is important to note that the solution requires no change or action from that other person. It is all Mane changing his own perspective and behavior, which in the end, is all he can control. Were I to offer unsolicited advice, it would be to share these insights with the woman in question. This might help her interpret Mane's explanations better, e.g. if he forgets to filter his remarks; as well as to understand this source of stress and drama in their relationship. It might make a difference that Mane and I are both NTs, but then that's the point. Different people interpret and react to situations differently, especially ones as subjective as interpersonal interactions.

    @Mane: feel free to correct any of this if I've got it wrong; or just ignore, since my remarks are more an example of my own thought process than a comment on the situation you described. )
    Thanks...questions to everyone:

    1) In your interpretation of his example, it's his action that causes the problem/stress in the relationship so he adjust his own action/behaviour...What should one do when the roles are reversed? What to do when someone else's actions cause a problem/stress in the relationship? Who will adjust to/accommodate who?

    2) What happens when the other party fails to respect to the changed behaviour/dynamics? How to enforce them?

    3) Did Mane's solution work on the long term?

  2. #1022
    Society
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    @Mane: How are you doing btw? I went back through some of this old thread and wondered if you managed to get that RESP set-up. I hope you did. Has your ex allowed you to have any contact with your step-son at all since the time you were sharing this in thread? Or have either of you managed to communicate since then? Hope you are well. Good to see you here.
    she has not, and knowing myself i promise i will be completely incapable of shutting up about it here or anywhere if and when it happens.

    but all the wheels in the machine are turning in the right directions:

    yes regarding the RESP - that was amazing tip not only in it's practical value but as an emotional reminder that my ex can - at the absolute worst case scenario - only go on in her destructive behavior until he is 18, after which it's in my hands and his, to whatever extent it can be taken. while such results wouldn't be anywhere close to good enough in an end of themselves, the fact i was able to replace the worst case scenario with a time frame rather then forever did a lot for my own ability, and under the right circumstances will probably be a factor in changing her perspective. i've learned here that much of the destructive behaviors revolving around doorslamming is rooted in the core assumption that one never has to look at the consequences, making the ability to avoid that a non-option is likely to be change the thinking mode her perspective regarding causing further harm.
    thankfully it also happened to be in what might be the best place to be a step parent legally - ontario. while i am unlikely to get shared custody, my lawyer (and other lawyers i checked before picking her) all agree that there is a strong case for a good dose of visitation rights. while it isn't applicable without a permanent residence, the same immigration lawyer that was working on my sponsorship case is now working on my working class immigration application, which would be ready to file when i finish my studies and add my diploma to it in just a couple of more months (condensed courses back to back, but worth it).
    after that i would be able to immigrate straight away if i get a canadian company to sign me in (which is pretty likely, demand for app developers is at an extreme high with very few people specializing in it yet, separating it from general software engineering) or take the slow route after a year of experience here, preferably the first.
    i do think their are a lot of unhealthy repercussions for the child to unhealthy dynamics between divorced parents, but in the mean time i think i gathered here and elsewhere enough information about the mentality i have to work with in order to have a few plausible strategies to do this peacefully and with her willingness, assuming my worst fears on the matter aren't the actual working model. the main problem is getting a sustainable solution for this. while opening the door on the basis of her hearing only what she'd wants to hear and never having to look at anything that can imply anything negative about herself is doable, it is too fragile and unrealistic to be sustainable in the long run.
    my main fear at this point is whether he'll remember me and if so in what way - from my ex's family members i know she maintains lying to him that i have abandoned him on my own accord. although there is an interesting thing going on there where songs i used to sing with him are constantly added and removed from his youtube list, making me quite hopeful that at least somethings associated with me are remembered (which is still on my old user account). on the other hand, the basic fact of his experience of time - the bits by the blond guy demonstrate this in this video.


    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    With the other, antagonism usually invites same, so that part didn't bother me that much.
    i appreciate that being acknowledged, my original interpretation was that you were referring to my tone of voice in my reaction yeghor, not in the lack thereof to Eilonwy, so i was explaining the first rather than the later.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    @Mane - generally tone doesn't bother me nearly as much if I can figure out what the intent behind it is. So mostly, I needed to understand it better, as there seemed to be an unexpected response (in my eyes) even to someone who was appearing to rethink the way she had originally interpreted you. [...] When I am having a discussion with someone and see that they are rethinking something because of an exchange we had, I'd be likely to start from common ground and branch out from there. It looked to me that you didn't, so I wondered if that was my own bias, or if it actually meant something and if so, what it meant. The crappy thing about Ni is that it just generates too many possibilities and so the more that can get eliminated in my mind, then better I understand what I see in front of me.

    In other words, I guess it depends what you want out the conversation. If you want to gain receptivity for your views of INFJ blindspots with a new audience, I don't think that tone will be effective, but it doesn't really bother me. If you want to carry on a discussion with the people that already were in on round one of the thread, I just wanted a baseline to go off of to figure out your views now and how you planned to relate or what you wanted to accomplish at this point (which may be different than two years ago).
    i would say @Eilonwy did a fine job understanding & her ability to step back and rethink everything, and an impressive desire to do so. so far her understandings seem to be correct & in some cases surprisingly insightful in putting things into perspective, and the fact she took such a level of mental & emotional effort - both hope inspiring and & touching. i'd say she gave a lot more in terms of mental resources and initiative to this then i ever expected here of anyone. admittedly i focused more on engaging her directly and didn't stop think of the 'audience' or to follow @Esoteric Wench's step in considering how the public acknowledgement or the lack there of can in itself be a carrot/stick for any other INFJ reading it. i can see how viewing the lack of public acknowledgement could be alienating, that wasn't my intent.

    likewise @Coriolis - spot on analysis of the example. more generally, @fidelia was asking about possible solutions maintaining healthy boundaries without doorslamming, so the idea was to show how the application of a less destructive approach can do just that.
    Last edited by Society; 12-31-2013 at 07:43 AM.

  3. #1023
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    1) In your interpretation of his example, it's his action that causes the problem/stress in the relationship so he adjust his own action/behaviour...What should one do when the roles are reversed? What to do when someone else's actions cause a problem/stress in the relationship? Who will adjust to/accommodate who?

    2) What happens when the other party fails to respect to the changed behaviour/dynamics? How to enforce them?
    if only there was a reference point, with key points going over your head bolded for your pleasure...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    it seems to be the specifics are always going to be context dependent, but generally behavior doesn't happen in a vacuum, so its a lot more useful to back and examine the dynamic and see where you can cause the impact that will break it, either by doing something you aren't or stopping to do something you are.

    for an applied personal recent example:


    as a general rule, there is always something that can be done, the emotional downside of it is acknowledging that their was something you could have done and thus taking responsibility for the negative aspects but i find that a good rule of thumbs is that responsibility rarely a zero sum game - the answer of who is responsible to something in a relationship is almost always going to be both simply because either one has the capacity to influence the results, and also in a way it's empowering (with great responsibility comes power? the line spiderman would have said if he had an e8 in his tritype).
    likewise, you where probably creating the dynamic with your childhood friend and coworker, and hypothetically you could have very easily taken a step back and to examine things from their perspective, as i demonstrated doing earlier with much less information than you had.

    that's being said, correct me if i got anything wrong yeghor, but from what i gathered so far: you are in your mid 30s, single, no children, a largely insignificant position in your company as you feel your potential contribution isn't heard and at the very least not in a position where reliance of you is required, a tendency towards unstable bonds and one sided view of relationships in general suggesting expandable friendships at best. as far as i can tell, the only person if any that might have anything to loose from you doorslamming them might be your father/parents. unless i am missing some vital information,it doesn't seem that you doorslamming anyone would be of particular significance or loss. and as i pointed out earlier, quite possibly the best contribution you can have to the people in your life. as long as it remains this way, i don't see the problem. simply put: you can't betray anyone if nobody is in a position to trust or relay on you. while you might as well have the emotional development not far from that of a psychopath, it is an impotent psychopath.

    you are - affectively - mostly harmless. congratulations

  4. #1024
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    That being said, the big picture/pattern I get from this is: Mane was experiencing alot of distraction and stress in a relationship, to the point where it was impacting his ability to get things done. He made the effort to analyze the situation, which showed him that his natural manner of sharing information was coming across to the other person as conflicting signals and/or indecision, causing her to be stressed and upset. He therefore identified a solution, namely to adjust his presentation style better to match the woman's hearing style. The even more top level picture: Mane identified a problem, analyzed the problem, and came up with a solution.

    Since this problem involved another person, it is important to note that the solution requires no change or action from that other person. It is all Mane changing his own perspective and behavior, which in the end, is all he can control. Were I to offer unsolicited advice, it would be to share these insights with the woman in question. This might help her interpret Mane's explanations better, e.g. if he forgets to filter his remarks; as well as to understand this source of stress and drama in their relationship. It might make a difference that Mane and I are both NTs, but then that's the point. Different people interpret and react to situations differently, especially ones as subjective as interpersonal interactions.
    I agree with your unsolicited advice, which I bolded. Rereading this thread brought home to me how important this kind of communication is because of the different perspectives. Since much, if not all, of my communication is infused with some amount of emotion, I sometimes have a difficult time telling what comes across as overly dramatic to which people. F's seem to react to the emotional tones differently than T's. And posting instead of talking leaves much more room for misinterpretation. Sometimes I can pick up on cues that I've come across badly, but sometimes I can't, so I would appreciate being told so that I can learn, and maybe some sort of compromise can be reached in which both people are happy. Admittedly, this is not the style of interacting that I grew up with, or am used to seeing practiced in my everyday life, so, I would guess that it might take some getting used to before it becomes second nature and communication ends up proceeding more naturally between both parties.

    I also think this highlights a problem I've seen brought up time and time again between types here on the forum, where one type assumes that they are doing all of the adjusting and the other type isn't. It's a big part of this thread. What I think I've learned about this is that I don't always understand or hear requests for adjustment from other types as requests for adjustment. And vice versa. Also, I might not see that the other type is already adjusting, because it's not the kind of adjustment I'm looking for from my perspective. This comes from seeing posts from INFJs asking for more information from Mane, and thinking that he wasn't answering those requests when I first read through, but seeing that he was answering on the second read through. This implies to me that Mane probably already did some adjusting in order to hear the requests in the first place, since our communication styles are different. And I think I see some adjustment from his natural voice in how he answered, too. But the first time through, I didn't see that adjustment and felt that I was being asked to do all of the adjusting for him. I also think that the adjusting I was doing wasn't the adjustment he might have needed from his perspective. (I hope this all makes some sense.) The possible flip side of this is that I might hear requests for adjustment where there are no requests. In any of these cases, if adjustments are made without some sort of communication, the adjustments might be missed, and go unappreciated, which might eventually lead to resentment.

    So, it seems to me that all of this adjusting and communicating takes a lot of effort. I don't think there's any way around that. For anybody.

    Which leads me to this:
    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I have no intention of being someone's punching bag, particularly if there is nothing productive to be gained by doing so.
    Now, I think we INFJs punched Mane back just as much as he punched us. In order to write this reply, I went back to see if I had kept any of my old PMs to Mane, because I remembered PMing him a time or two after this thread had died down. What I remembered was that I had asked him about what he was trying to say, and his response was frustration because I still wasn't hearing him correctly. Well, I found the old PMs, and what I remembered wasn't quite what I found. Yeah, my memory was basically correct, but I had forgotten how defensive I felt at the time, and that defensiveness, along with a bit of snottiness,* was apparent in what I wrote to him. And yeah, there was frustration in his reply to me, but only after a lot of patient explanation that I didn't interpret correctly at the time because of my own defensiveness, and in reply to a dismissively worded statement that I had no more time to spend discussing things with him. And what I had completely forgotten is that his frustration finally got through to some part of me. I took it as a challenge and skimmed through this thread in order to try to prove him wrong. And I ended up PMing him again and quite snottily saying "You're right, I'm wrong." He actually took the time to PM back and ask me to explain, which I did, but rather reluctantly. So, that probably planted the seed in my head that I needed to eventually go back and reread this thread. Not so much to help Mane, but because I was pissed off at being wrong and had something to prove to myself. But that was almost a year ago. My motivation changed some over time.

    Also, despite you taking time to say what you'd gotten out of the thread upon second reading, his response was not to engage with you on that in any real way.
    His response was not to engage me publicly. He did engage me privately. And he did so because he was concerned about the response I would get if he did engage me publicly, which was very thoughtful of him.

    And I think this is a good lesson, too. One I recently learned myself. None of us has the whole picture of what's going on here on the forum. I can't follow every single person and every single thread, so my view of the forum is limited to what I focus on. And I can't know who's saying what privately to whom, so I have an incomplete picture of the relationships between people on the forum. I discovered it's not good to assume that my view of the forum, or the people on it, is the 'correct' one. I'm missing too much information.

    When I read it first, I'll admit I just came away with an impression of emotional tone which I found dismissive and distracting. Upon rereading, I think he makes valid points, I find it an incredible amount of mental work to " sanitize" emotional tone out so that I can pay attention to the content. I am assuming that I even am over-reading tone into it that he may not even feel, but the style is very distracting to me. Even if I am not the recipient, it feels like being in a room with an angry person and having to navigate around them.
    It does take a lot of effort. I didn't just go into rereading this thread cold, though. After it died down, and after the PM's a year ago, I would read some of Mane's posts here and there. It took a while for me to not add emotion to his posts, especially if the subject was INFJs. But his posts on other subjects were easier to read, and eventually, even some of the ones about INFJs were easier, too. After some time, I could read most of his posts as informative or sarcastic in a funny way. So, when I did reread this thread, I had already changed how I heard him to some extent. That was probably good, because rereading the thread was still very difficult--in trying to keep seeing it from his pov as much as possible, in dealing with all the emotions that came up, and in trying to analyze those emotions to see how they might relate to doorslamming. It was uncomfortable and unpleasant. Lots of ups and downs and, from my pov, craziness.

    In order to not have to switch back and forth between pov's, I only read Mane's posts. But I also went back later and read his posts and all of the replies. It was weird to do that, because I could see both sides and felt a great need to pick one over the other in order to keep some sort of mental stability. In other words, there were times when all of it seemed rather unreal and I didn't know what to believe. Even after all of that, I had a hard time grasping some of what he was saying simply because I was exhausted (from reading and from real life stuff) and couldn't find the motivation to take the time to work it out. Overtaxed Ti on my part, I believe.

    As for who benefited from my doing this? I know I did. I learned a lot about myself. Mane says he did. So, win-win.

    Was it worth it to me to put out the effort? Yep. Absolutely. In many ways. Will it be worth it to anyone else to put out their own effort? I can't say. Maybe a good start would be to not define Mane only by the anger he showed in his initial post, and to try seeing him as a whole person instead of one emotion.


    *ETA: When I reread my PMs, I was very embarrassed and ashamed of my attitude back then. It's embarrassing to me to write about it now and to let Mane, and everyone reading this, know what an ass I was. I thought about leaving it out, but part of the purpose of this is to show that being able to revisit past information while staying open to new information can be beneficial to any relationship.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  5. #1025
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    @Mane, I'm going to have to go back and reread your posts carefully to give you the response your questions deserve. I will do that over the next couple of days as my time permits. More soon.

    An Aside from a Te User About All You Ti Users (viz., INFJs and ENTPs)
    I sometimes find these Ti-heavy threads exhausting to read. From my Te point of view, I see a lot of walls of text filled with Ti analysis. I do read these posts, but afterward it leaves me feeling quite drained. My Te doesn't like to have to concentrate on what seems to me like focusing on sometimes irrelevant minutiae and parsing other people's walls of text. Te is far more interested in getting to the broad strokes of the argument. So it takes me a while to absorb all the Ti arguments and come up with a (hopefully) thoughtful response.

    So @yeghor, I'm not ignoring your posts. I'm just trying to absorb all your Ti arguments which often leaves me figuratively speechless. This is also why I probably feel like the Fi/Te posts (like @PeaceBaby and the INTJs who have posted on this thread) are a breath of fresh air. I try to overcome the limits of my Fi//Te perspective and appreciate the Ti I see on this thread, but it takes a lot of mental energy for me to do so.

    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  6. #1026
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    1) In your interpretation of his example, it's his action that causes the problem/stress in the relationship so he adjust his own action/behaviour...What should one do when the roles are reversed? What to do when someone else's actions cause a problem/stress in the relationship? Who will adjust to/accommodate who?

    2) What happens when the other party fails to respect to the changed behaviour/dynamics? How to enforce them?

    3) Did Mane's solution work on the long term?
    1. No, the stress is caused by a mismatch between his transmission style and her receiving style. Put otherwise, there is "fault" on both sides, though they are not really doing something wrong, just failing to fix a naturally occurring problem. Ideally, both would accommodate to fix the communication problem. Mane did all he could unilaterally, short of discussing it with the woman. If it really is a situation where the fault lies entirely with the other person, you can try to point out the problem to them and offer to work out a solution. If that fails, there may be little you can do other than end the relationship, or at least spend less time with the person.

    2. If both people need to adjust to correct the problem and only one does, the situation is similar to (1) where the fault lies only/principally with the other person. Unless you have authority over the other person, e.g. as a parent or mentor, your only enforcement method may be to disengage from the other person. You must balance this with what you might lose by doing so (e.g. can you afford to give up your job to avoid a bad boss?)

    3. Insufficient information to determine.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  7. #1027

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    if only there was a reference point, with key points going over your head bolded for your pleasure...
    But there is a point of reference, you and I both have our own points of references in the relationship…Furthermore, you and I both have our distinct but limited range of motion in which we can shift/extend/flex our point of references for the other…that’s called compromise…There are things/points that I am willing to concede/compromise and there are issues/things that I will not yield/compromise…

    The important point is that the compromise I am willing to make depends on my own point of referenceI will be the judge of whether I should compromise or not or that I did not compromised enough…not you…If there’s a binding agreement between you and I, which does not allow me to act that way (like a marriage contract), or there are 3rd parties affected (such as a child) and if we cannot agree on whether one or either of us is not compromising/flexing enough or asking too much of it but are still willing to fight for the relationship then we should go to an outside party/mediator/counselor who will provide an outside point of reference to judge about how much each of us should flex/compromise or whether a compromise that satisfies each of us can be achieved…

    OTOH, you cannot force someone else to a compromise…It should be a mutual/voluntary thing….not unilateral/compulsory…If you tell me that I am not flexing/compromising enough then I can also tell you that you are asking me flex/compromise too much...So we all have our own point of references...

    This was what I was trying to say with the belowgiven:

    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Tolerating unpleasant stimuli may in the end make any person more tolerant/resistant to that stimuli (personal growth)...It's like being tempered with fire but only when in moderate doses...If the fire is too strong/hot, you get burned, destroying the base material...Thru this analogy, when an INFJ doorslams someone, it means the fire became too hot for them to handle anymore, i.e. it began burning/destroying them rather than tempering them...The suggestion that they should bear with the fire longer or that the fire is not as hot as the INFJs think/feel to be, I think, should not come from the bearer of the fire (conflict of interest) but some outside source who can objectively gauge the temperature for what it really is...
    If the parties/sides in the relationship cannot reach a compromise, then that means the relationship/contract is over/void…if one of us still thinks that he/she still has rights/damages to be claimed from the other, then he/she should apply to the courts/law as a still another outside point of reference to achieve resolution and closure on the issue…

    It’s also about the level of commitment each side feels towards the relationship…My flexibility, for instance, lessened (my boundaries became more rigid) in years so now I am much more conscious of what shit I’ll tolerate and what I will not…


    It feels to me as if I have toned down my Fe and increased my Fi just a notch as the years went by (just a theory)...

    TL-DR; You cannot dictate my point of reference to me…Please also see below in that regard:

    Quote Originally Posted by eclare View Post
    This is definitely my MO, but I have had to resort to the more dramatic outbursts a couple of times when the friend in question wouldn't allow me to gracefully pull away.

    I remember once in high school I had a friend/acquaintance - not someone I was super close to, but someone that I shared classes and studyhall with - that I eventually decided was kind of a mean person that I didn't want to be around. I tried to pull away but he kept bugging me all the time. We actually argued once over whether I was allowed to just stop being his friend. I was stunned and told him "I don't like you. I think you're mean. Why would I want to hang out with you anymore?" He seriously could not understand this concept.
    And by the way, where were all of you INFJ groupies back when I was young and single?

  8. #1028

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    ...likewise, you where probably creating the dynamic with your childhood friend and coworker, and hypothetically you could have very easily taken a step back and to examine things from their perspective, as i demonstrated doing earlier with much less information than you had.
    I wasn't creating the dynamic...I was a part of it...And yes, I have examined their perspective...and I did not like the role they had for me in their perspective...Our perspectives could not find a minimal amount of overlap that would allow the relationship to continue to the satisfaction of both parties...They, too, could have done that for me by the way, given that it's a two-way street...am I wrong?

    So what happens when the two angles of reference do not overlap? Who will decide my/your angle is right/wrong or that I or you did not flex my/your angle enough to make it work? What to do with the relationship then? How much flexibility is good/bad and based on what? What's the breaking point?

    What if the gap is too large to close? What if the other party expects you to walk more than you are willing to to close the gap? What if you cannot come to a mutual agreement on terms of the relationship/contract? Can the contract be unilaterally terminated? When, why or why not? What if the wording and the real application of the contract do not match (dejure and defacto)? That is to say what if a compromise is agreed upon by the parties but one of the parties keep violating the compromise but keep denying the violation? Who will be the judge of that? Whose life is this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    that's being said, correct me if i got anything wrong yeghor, but from what i gathered so far: you are in your mid 30s, single, no children, a largely insignificant position in your company as you feel your potential contribution isn't heard and at the very least not in a position where reliance of you is required, a tendency towards unstable bonds and one sided view of relationships in general suggesting expandable friendships at best. as far as i can tell, the only person if any that might have anything to loose from you doorslamming them might be your father/parents. unless i am missing some vital information,it doesn't seem that you doorslamming anyone would be of particular significance or loss. and as i pointed out earlier, quite possibly the best contribution you can have to the people in your life. as long as it remains this way, i don't see the problem. simply put: you can't betray anyone if nobody is in a position to trust or relay on you. while you might as well have the emotional development not far from that of a psychopath, it is an impotent psychopath.

    you are - affectively - mostly harmless. congratulations
    Congrats...

    Mane, based on the information you deduced from my posts, you tried to extrapolate what you thought to be the worst (or the best for your intended purpose) scenario (out of many possible scenarios/realities) about me...What did you do that for?

    The scenario you deduced about me is wrong...However, the interesting thing is that you successfully identified, out of many distinct possible future realities, the one that I am most fearful of coming true in the future...the scenario/reality that I fear ending up with..So, basically, you failed to identify my present circumstances but managed to identify my fears for future...How did you do that? Which functions do you think you may have used to do that?

  9. #1029

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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post

    ...I sometimes find these Ti-heavy threads exhausting to read. From my Te point of view, I see a lot of walls of text filled with Ti analysis. I do read these posts, but afterward it leaves me feeling quite drained. My Te doesn't like to have to concentrate on what seems to me like focusing on sometimes irrelevant minutiae and parsing other people's walls of text. Te is far more interested in getting to the broad strokes of the argument. So it takes me a while to absorb all the Ti arguments and come up with a (hopefully) thoughtful response.

    So @yeghor, I'm not ignoring your posts. I'm just trying to absorb all your Ti arguments which often leaves me figuratively speechless. This is also why I probably feel like the Fi/Te posts (like @PeaceBaby and the INTJs who have posted on this thread) are a breath of fresh air. I try to overcome the limits of my Fi//Te perspective and appreciate the Ti I see on this thread, but it takes a lot of mental energy for me to do so.[/INDENT]

    Sorry, I wasn't aware how that may be tiring for you and others who do not have Ti preference...I know better now that I have also experienced difficulty in interpreting Fi-based posts...Thanks for the reply...

  10. #1030

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    1. No, the stress is caused by a mismatch between his transmission style and her receiving style. Put otherwise, there is "fault" on both sides, though they are not really doing something wrong, just failing to fix a naturally occurring problem. Ideally, both would accommodate to fix the communication problem. Mane did all he could unilaterally, short of discussing it with the woman. If it really is a situation where the fault lies entirely with the other person, you can try to point out the problem to them and offer to work out a solution. If that fails, there may be little you can do other than end the relationship, or at least spend less time with the person.

    2. If both people need to adjust to correct the problem and only one does, the situation is similar to (1) where the fault lies only/principally with the other person. Unless you have authority over the other person, e.g. as a parent or mentor, your only enforcement method may be to disengage from the other person. You must balance this with what you might lose by doing so (e.g. can you afford to give up your job to avoid a bad boss?)

    3. Insufficient information to determine.
    Thanks for the cool-headed and clarifying reply...

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