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Thread: When an INFJ doorslams you / cuts you out of their life / breaks off contact

  1. #1011
    Senior Member Array yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    Esoteric Wench and fidelia both asked for Mane to tone it down or change his style. I can go back and link to the posts if you like, but I'm not inclined to take the time right now. I didn't specify which people were telling Mane to tone it down, but you were not one of the ones I had in mind because what I saw is that you were bantering back and forth with him. I didn't see you having any trouble participating in the conversation the two of you were having or saying you didn't want to participate because of his tone. The problems start when other people then join in that conversation with their own interpretations of who's right and who's wrong.
    What fidelia says, IMO, is not that she "won't" listen to Mane if he does not change his tone...what she's actually saying is that she literally is having a "hard time" comprehending what Mane is saying because he does not optimize his wording for comprenhesibility by the audience...Mane, IMO, simply, does not care about that...I think he needs to filter his thoughts (by using Fe and Ti perhaps) for his audience...if his goal is clear communication...

    Esoteric Wench on the other hand pointed out to Mane that his tone was coming across as abusive and that he would lose his audience if he continued like that...so as you said she may have told him to tone it down...

    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    Do you see your assumption here? Do you see how you interpreted my statement as personal to you? I do this all the time, assuming and interpreting things as personal to me. It's part of why I didn't understand what Mane was saying in the first place, and also one of my contributions to communication problems that I'm trying to work on.
    Actually I first wanted to respond to your post about double standards on treatment of Mane and me on behalf of fidelia too but then decided it would be better to respond just for my self...I did not think you specifically referred to me personally but to both of us and therefore felt obliged to provide clarification about that...I do not think there's any harm in my assumption of responsibility towards providing clarification...

    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    I didn't say that you did ask for your feelings to be soothed. Read the words I wrote without adding to them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy
    Why is it okay for yeghor to have his hurt feelings soothed, but not Mane?
    I responded to the second one...? You meant soothing my feelings by venting them out? I thought you meant having my feelings soothed by somebody else...sorry...

    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    Mane might have the right to have his say, but when he tries to do that in his own voice, he's told that he has to change his tone in order for him to be heard. I didn't see anyone saying that to you. And even though I told you I thought some things you said were insensitive, I didn't say that I wouldn't be able to hear you if you didn't change your tone. Do you see where you and Mane were getting different treatment and how that could lead to an unfair reading of Mane's side of the conversation?
    As I said, fidelia and I didn't say that we wouldn't be able to hear Mane if he didn't change his tone either...We are simply saying that we are having a hard time comprehending what he is saying (it's not we won't hear him but can't...)...

    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    But, unfortunately, it can be part of human nature to do just that--decide who's right or wrong based on emotions felt.
    Yes it can be....but people who have learnt to fake emotions or who have not learnt to regulate their emotions may use that nature of ordinary people to get away with their misdeeds...by appealing to people's sympathy...it's better to be aware of this self-tendency and to support your feelings with tangible facts before coming to a conclusion...
    Last edited by yeghor; 12-30-2013 at 10:18 AM. Reason: Edited last paragraph...

  2. #1012
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    assumptions assumptions on the wall, which argument is the prettiest of them all...

    alternatively, i am just going to ask:
    @Esoteric Wench & @fidelia: what did you mean in regards to my tone? and also, did you mean it specifically in my response to @yeghor since the conversation necromancy or rather in general over the last two years? for that matter, was their even a request to change it, or just a request to clarification in regards to the reasoning behind it?

  3. #1013
    reborn Array PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    As much as I'd like to enter this discussion, I'm having trouble seeing how I might be a clarifier. Still, a few thoughts:

    @yeghor: as I said before, and as @Mane mentioned above, you do not have enough context to know what you don't know. Yet, you persist in diagnosing Mane with all manner of personality defects. I find it amusing too that you think @Eilonwy and @Mane are Fi users. I hope both consider that a wonderful compliment, actually.

    @Mane: How are you doing btw? I went back through some of this old thread and wondered if you managed to get that RESP set-up. I hope you did. Has your ex allowed you to have any contact with your step-son at all since the time you were sharing this in thread? Or have either of you managed to communicate since then? Hope you are well. Good to see you here.

    Plus, nice point about dismissing the argument vs dismissing the person. When people toss out the person, they by default toss the argument as well. Which is akin to throwing out the baby with the bath water, imo.

    @Eilonwy: you point out the double-standard quite well. Why indeed does yeghor get to come in here and casually throw around hurtful judgements? Why must Mane be backed into a corner to prove his viewpoint has validity? Why does he have to sanitize his voice here? We are on a forum about typology, after all. I noted my own entry point in this thread was to caution Mane about his approach. Still, I accept that he CAN have a point AND have difficult emotions to process all at the same time. Having emotions, or writing something with emotion, or writing something that evokes emotion does not make irrelevant or invalidate a personal viewpoint.


    I do think that people frequently get confused about what emotions are in the posts themselves (emanating from the poster) and the emotions that the post evokes in them as the viewer. When something evokes an emotional response from me, I do focus quite specifically on who owns what, but at the fundamental level, I own every emotion and emotional perspective I have, and that choice (to take that ownership of every emotion I experience) is what I use to try to be balanced and fair. I do think that "evoked" emotions often cloud the ability to address the poster as a real human person and I'm not sure many folks recognize that about themselves. This is why INFJ's seek to strip emotions out of the equation I think. The difficulty of course is that a unemotional state of impartiality is a non-entity. There is no such thing.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  4. #1014
    wants Mifune clone minion Array Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    As a relevant aside, I suspect INFJs are more likely to dismiss people, while INTJs are more likely to dismiss arguments . . . which can easily be interpreted as a personal dismissal by many folks.


    The same might be said of yours. You have no doubt heard the advice given to fiction authors, that it is better to show than to tell.


    These in particular can be a big problem, especially when dealing with Ts, and especially #3 and #4. We just don't give off the same signals that F-types do. It can be tempting to fill the gaps in that part of the information spectrum with something, but the something is rarely accurate.


    Well, you could start by considering the information on its own merits. Does it seem accurate, reasonable, useful? Is it consistent with what else you know on the topic? Does it pique your curiosity, or prompt a question? Do you see an error or misunderstanding you might correct? All of this is possible without understanding anything about the poster's intent, especially here where the threads are public, and an answer directed at one person can be read by many.

    Or, go with #5 above, and just ask for clarification. I can never understand why people prefer to assume than to ask.
    Strongest breakfast Te I've had in a good long while. (Because there's no steamroller emoticon. Also, why is there no steamroller emoticon?)
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  5. #1015
    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    @Mane - generally tone doesn't bother me nearly as much if I can figure out what the intent behind it is. So mostly, I needed to understand it better, as there seemed to be an unexpected response (in my eyes) even to someone who was appearing to rethink the way she had originally interpreted you. With the other, antagonism usually invites same, so that part didn't bother me that much. It was just an extension of the first part of the thread. I realize that the ENTP approach to most things is fairly different from INFJ, but I'm not entirely sure where those differences lie, so I guess this is my attempt to feel my way through the dark and see what stuff is just ENTP approach and what is more situation specific. When I am having a discussion with someone and see that they are rethinking something because of an exchange we had, I'd be likely to start from common ground and branch out from there. It looked to me that you didn't, so I wondered if that was my own bias, or if it actually meant something and if so, what it meant. The crappy thing about Ni is that it just generates too many possibilities and so the more that can get eliminated in my mind, then better I understand what I see in front of me.

    In other words, I guess it depends what you want out the conversation. If you want to gain receptivity for your views of INFJ blindspots with a new audience, I don't think that tone will be effective, but it doesn't really bother me. If you want to carry on a discussion with the people that already were in on round one of the thread, I just wanted a baseline to go off of to figure out your views now and how you planned to relate or what you wanted to accomplish at this point (which may be different than two years ago).

    I appreciate your not assuming that I'm requesting you to change your tone, while keeping my own the same, nor am I trying to give you a hard time. I just was thrown a little bit by your approach and needed clarification so I could focus on your message. I thought I was asking you directly, but it seems I haven't communicated that well, so I need to look at where the disconnect is in the way I've communicated that judging from others responses. I'm discovering in a lot of these threads that things both parties believe are direct questions are not worded in such a way that they seem that way to someone else with different functions.

  6. #1016
    Senior Member Array INTJMom's Avatar
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    Just for the record... as an INTJ, I have done the doorslam before... more than once.
    From that moment on, that person no longer even exists in my thoughts or my in world.
    As far as I can recall it has been because somebody ridiculed me in a way that painted me into a corner with no escape... public humiliation.
    So I cut off the relationship because I couldn't stand the disdain and disrespect.
    My self-image is a lot healthier now than it used to be when I was young.
    I am able to laugh at myself a lot easier and I don't get tempted to doorslam... as far as I can recall.

  7. #1017
    Alchemist of life Array Coriolis's Avatar
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    Again, the issue seems to be that I then can't figure out your intent for communicating certain information and if I can't figure out the intent, I have no way of evaluating whether or not I have anything to contribute that would be of use, and if I can't do that, I'd just prefer not to expend the emotional energy needed to engage in an exchange that is potentially frustrating.
    I responded to your comment above as a general general statement about how you approach discussions when you cannot determine someone's intent. Is this not your general approach, and did you mean it only specifically in the context of this thread, or the posts from Mane? If so, what is your more general response when you cannot determine intent, or do you even have a general response, or take it truly case-by-case?

    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Well, I have been trying to do that...You might consider doing that too...
    I am not trying to make a case for @Mane displaying "rage, projection, gaslighting, denial etc. behaviour . . .you seriously refuse to see reason and are stuck in your views". These are so far just your unsubstantiated opinions. For someone who claims to prefer facts over emotional content, you are quick to attribute feelings and intentions to others, rather than focus on just the facts provided. A more minor point: you are also quick to question the type of others whom you know far less than the person offering the typing. Some examples:

    @Esoteric Wench, you somehow felt a need to step in in Eilowyn's defense
    I think you are hindering the discussion by playing favorites
    I think you are trying too hard to see that you are seeing that what's not there
    He wants us to swallow a bitter pill
    I see this tendency to form fellowships/alliances (taking sides) rather than discussing the issues..
    You are disregarding any insight offered to you by INFJs here because, I believe, you are mistakenly associating them with your ex-wife
    This makes me even more suspicious that you are an actually an INFP
    ==================

    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    I am inclined to dismiss the emotional content of her messages but focus on the logical content...
    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Btw, you came here with a negative tone, why? Have you read the earlier discussions in the thread?
    I am surprised you are reading nonexistent "tone" into my post if the quote above truly reflects your inclination. On the other hand, it would be consistent with the examples I cited above.

    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    For instance, what do you make of the belowgiven piece of information? What do you conclude/deduce from it in terms of your framework of reasoning/understanding? Crunch it into a pattern for us INFJs here please, so that we can integrate it into our own framework...
    First, I will point out that I think Mane is not a native speaker of English. (This is not meant at all as a criticism, especially since I cannot express myself in any non-native language as well as he can in English!) It just means sometimes I'm not sure of the exact details he is describing, though I generally get the main point, and watch carefully in ensuing discussion for anything I may have misinterpreted. Having read many posts from Mane over the months, I may just be more used to how he writes than a newer member would be.

    That being said, the big picture/pattern I get from this is: Mane was experiencing alot of distraction and stress in a relationship, to the point where it was impacting his ability to get things done. He made the effort to analyze the situation, which showed him that his natural manner of sharing information was coming across to the other person as conflicting signals and/or indecision, causing her to be stressed and upset. He therefore identified a solution, namely to adjust his presentation style better to match the woman's hearing style. The even more top level picture: Mane identified a problem, analyzed the problem, and came up with a solution.

    Since this problem involved another person, it is important to note that the solution requires no change or action from that other person. It is all Mane changing his own perspective and behavior, which in the end, is all he can control. Were I to offer unsolicited advice, it would be to share these insights with the woman in question. This might help her interpret Mane's explanations better, e.g. if he forgets to filter his remarks; as well as to understand this source of stress and drama in their relationship. It might make a difference that Mane and I are both NTs, but then that's the point. Different people interpret and react to situations differently, especially ones as subjective as interpersonal interactions.

    @Mane: feel free to correct any of this if I've got it wrong; or just ignore, since my remarks are more an example of my own thought process than a comment on the situation you described. )
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  8. #1018
    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    I do generally need to have an idea of intent to orient myself (which is why I usually don't join in unless I have a history with the people involved or have had some time to observe), but my comments were directed specifically at Mane based on the previous history of exchange in this thread and his reaction to Eilonwy, which I found sort of confusing and wanted to clarify before engaging further.

  9. #1019
    Senior Member Array yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor
    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby

    All I can do is tell you are pretty far off-base on the facts for much of what you believe to be true here. The irony of course is that you illustrate the theme of the thread quite well yourself, and you don't see that either.
    I am looking forward to hearing from you in that regard after the holiday season...ENTPs natural mode of communication is not necessarily sarcasm by the way...I know that for a fact...When people present new ideas or point out my mistakes for my sake rather than theirs, I very much welcome the gesture...even when coming from ENTPs...
    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    @yeghor: as I said before, and as @Mane mentioned above, you do not have enough context to know what you don't know. Yet, you persist in diagnosing Mane with all manner of personality defects.
    In you first post you sounded as if there were things you know that I did not know about the issue/Mane...On what points I am pretty far off-base? Please do clarify...by providing facts that I am not aware of if possible...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I find it amusing too that you think @Eilonwy and @Mane are Fi users.
    Why? What is there to be amused?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I hope both consider that a wonderful compliment, actually.
    Me too...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Plus, nice point about dismissing the argument vs dismissing the person. When people toss out the person, they by default toss the argument as well. Which is akin to throwing out the baby with the bath water, imo.
    What if the baby has been dead for a long time and is rotten?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    @Eilonwy: you point out the double-standard quite well. Why indeed does yeghor get to come in here and casually throw around hurtful judgements?
    Why does Mane?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Why must Mane be backed into a corner to prove his viewpoint has validity?
    Why does Mane expect the same from INFJs in the forum?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Why does he have to sanitize his voice here?
    He doesn't!...He needs to clarify/optimize it...I don't care if he throws insults at me...just (try to) make it comprehensible goddamn it...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Having emotions, or writing something with emotion, or writing something that evokes emotion does not make irrelevant or invalidate a personal viewpoint.
    In the absence of tangible facts, such a viewpoint becomes a spirit without a body, it does not materialize, due to which others cannot consume and integrate it (not necessarily as it is) into their own framework of thinking...it remains exclusively "your" point of view...

  10. #1020
    Vulnerability Array Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    What fidelia says, IMO, is not that she "won't" listen to Mane if he does not change his tone...what she's actually saying is that she literally is having a "hard time" comprehending what Mane is saying because he does not optimize his wording for comprenhesibility by the audience...Mane, IMO, simply, does not care about that...I think he needs to filter his thoughts (by using Fe and Ti perhaps) for his audience...if his goal is clear communication...

    Esoteric Wench on the other hand pointed out to Mane that his tone was coming across as abusive and that he would lose his audience if he continued like that...so as you said she may have told him to tone it down...


    Actually I first wanted to respond to your post about double standards on treatment of Mane and me on behalf of fidelia too but then decided it would be better to respond just for my self...I did not think you specifically referred to me personally but to both of us and therefore felt obliged to provide clarification about that...I do not think there's any harm in my assumption of responsibility towards providing clarification...


    I responded to the second one...? You meant soothing my feelings by venting them out? I thought you meant having my feelings soothed by somebody else...sorry...


    As I said, fidelia and I didn't say that we wouldn't be able to hear Mane if he didn't change his tone either...We are simply saying that we are having a hard time comprehending what he is saying (it's not we won't hear him but can't...)...


    Yes it can be....but people who have learnt to fake emotions or who have not learnt to regulate their emotions may use that nature of ordinary people to get away with their misdeeds...by appealing to people's sympathy...it's better to be aware of this self-tendency and to support your feelings with tangible facts before coming to a conclusion...
    I will have to respond to this later. But I'll give you a bit of an explanation now. Since last night, I've been posting on the fly because I haven't had the time to read and reread the posts to make sure I'm answering thoughtfully and not just reacting to my initial impressions. So, my posts since last night are all about reacting to my initial impressions and probably will contain many errors in interpretation and might not be clearly communicated, and you have pointed out some of those errors. When I get some time, I'll try to respond more thoughtfully.
    Johari / Nohari

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