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Thread: When an INFJ doorslams you / cuts you out of their life / breaks off contact

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    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    why are you? throughout these discussions i kept hearing INFJs either demanding the intent of others or making various claims to what they think it is, yourself included. hopefully by now i clarified mine. what is yours? and i don't mean just with me - before me and after me - in general, engaging those who had various negative experiences with INFJs is as much of a choice for you as it is for them to engage you. what is your intent?
    Generally I've learned something new from interacting with people whose thought processes are very different than mine and I find it is useful to better inform my own reactions, assumptions or perceptions. It also sometimes points out information that I wouldn't think of that should be factored into the mix. For me, it takes a considerable amount of time after getting new information to test it in different contexts, decide where it might be useful or come back with more questions. So while I may seem closed initially, usually it means I just need time to think it over. I think it's interesting to hear how different Eilonwy's perceptions were after a considerable amount of time had elapsed and she reread the thread. I believe that any interaction we have should impact us in some way. So I guess I'd say the reason for participating in any of these threads is to be more informed or gather missing bits of info, and sometimes even to duke it out until a better understanding of each other emerges. I like knowing what to expect from people and this adds to my mental model construction.

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    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    @Coriolis

    Don't know if you've waded through this whole thread or not, but if you haven't, I don't think your comments to me are valid. At this point, two years later, I wonder though if any of the participant's perspectives are different (E said hers were). I've already commented that I think Eilonwy's observations ring true and reflect some of my own experiences/tendencies as well, but asked a logistical question about drawing boundaries. I assume that Mane is feeling less invested in some regards than at the time the thread was started and this isn't his first INFJ interaction, so I assumed he was intentionally using a tone that could be perceived negatively by his audience to prove a point, or elicit a reaction. I did ask directly what the goal was in doing so because I thought he may have information that would put it into a context that made more sense to me.

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    Senior Member Array yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    @yeghor, i have to say i love the character creation mode here - brilliant tactics as well - who needs to look fore reason anything when one can just invent an imaginary ulterior motive to explain why it wouldn't be there?
    Well Mane, prove your innocence to me on the things I accused you of...just prove me wrong...feel free to demonstrate your point with examples in the process...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    it's almost as good as your arguing-via-retyping strategy (i can't get wait to see your performance when the NFPs join in). while you are working so hard on inventing intents for others, and we all appreciate it btw (at least me and the coworker and your childhood friend do), are you planning to reveal which one have you invented for yourself here in the thread?
    "...The world by all means should have shared it, could he have said why that woman pleased him so; why the sight of her reading a fairy tale to her boy had upon him precisely the same effect as the solution of a scientific problem, so that he rested in contemplation of it, and felt, as he felt when he had proved something absolute about the digestive system of plants, that barbarity was tamed, the reign of chaos subdued..."

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    oh, and about my theory...

    have you considered that reality is not measured merely by it's impact & value on your ego? could it just be possible that - *gasp* - things can both make you feel bad about yourself and be true in the same time? entire perspectives even?
    Well, have you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    Okay, here's an emotion-filled post from me because I'm in a hurry and not inclined to think before I act. My apologies to yeghor, because I'm going to throw him under a bus right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    What I don't understand is that, so far, people have been telling Mane to modify his tone, but no one has come out and told yeghor to modify his. Why is that? Why is it okay for yeghor to throw out insensitive proclamations and judgements? Why is it okay for him to diagnose Mane based on assumptions? Why is it okay for yeghor to have his hurt feelings soothed, but not Mane? Why is it not okay for Mane to have his say in something he didn't even start?

    I don't get it.
    I (and others?) am not complaining about his tone...I am complaining that his facts are obscured under a thick goo...From my perspective both Mane and I are throwing insensitive judgments at each other but at least I am trying to be as concise and clear in my wording in doing that so that the other party can literally get what I mean...Again, this is about his thoughts and reasoning being obscured...it is as if he is deliberately obscuring them...it's like smoke and mirrors...perhaps even some kind of taunting/teasing/trolling...

    I have never asked my feelings to be soothed by the way...just my points heard out...He has a right to have his say but if he does not make a conscious effort to make what he says comprehensible to his audience, what's the point of communication...it turns into a monologue rather than a dialogue...

    By the way as a clarification, it would be faulty in my opinion to decide who's right/wrong in any event by comparing which one of the parties hurt/emote more strongly...the emotions felt (and/or emitted outside) by someone should not be a measure in gauging that person's being right or wrong in interpersonal relationships...

    Also this:


    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    No one has been able to prove his theory wrong to his satisfaction (and thereby give him hope), his tone isn't one of seeking information, nor of diplomatically giving advice. I don't have any current conflicts or broken past ones to talk over. I have no intention of being someone's punching bag, particularly if there is nothing productive to be gained by doing so.
    Second that...

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Also, despite you taking time to say what you'd gotten out of the thread upon second reading, his response was not to engage with you on that in any real way.
    Second that...

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    When I read it first, I'll admit I just came away with an impression of emotional tone which I found dismissive and distracting. Upon rereading, I think he makes valid points, I find it an incredible amount of mental work to " sanitize" emotional tone out so that I can pay attention to the content. I am assuming that I even am over-reading tone into it that he may not even feel, but the style is very distracting to me....
    Partially second that...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    what is there is to gain: see how he reacts to seen his fallacies & cognitive mechanisms satire'd to the raw extreme form, his failed mental blocks played into, would he be able to laugh at himself? would he reicipate by playing into it further? would he put himself aside and look for the logic to counter argue? would he smiply blow a fuse? or find a self rightous hole to shove his head into? turned out to be the last, but just because the answer isn't pleasing doesn't make the question less worthwhile. tie the picnic basket behind a rock and and see under what circumstances can @yeghor bear still catch it, different reactions supporting different models carrying different possibilities in turn.
    I guess what you mean by all that is trolling/taunting/teasing or in the worst case abusing someone else for your own enterntainment/pleasure/curiosity? I found the picnic basket after all I guess...but it smells rotten...



    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    what is there to loose: his insight into the very same mechanisms he demonstrates not being able to see in the first place? his respectable moral authority of should's & shouldn'ts built on nothing but fragile towers of self justification blocks? his sophisticated understanding of typology repeating the same good old process of people identifying with the metaphors ingrained in function description to augment one's beliefs about one self and thus attributing the lack there of with the opposite function? what is it that i am expected to take seriously?
    What I noticed is that you are giving us advice that you yourself should follow in the first place...You are projecting onto us...Ask those questions to yourself first and give yourself (and to us if you will) honest answers...And no, I do not use mbti to justify how I act...but to understand my strong/weak spots...I gave those examples to Eilonwy to help her understand how to interpret mbti and cognitive functions...not to justify my behaviour...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    however, on a slightly off topic but related matter...

    where is that discussion? where are the victims of Ne blind spots? if doorslamming has being nothing but an opener for Ni/Fe blindspots, where is the tag for Ne? i've talked with people who had individual problems with Ne doms in general and ENTPs in particular. is their really not enough to merit a larger discussion?
    Well, you tell us...what are your blindspots? Can it be Ne-Fi? Can it be desperately trying to find a course of action that will make you feel good about yourself regardless of the consequences to others? Trying to cheat your way out to that end by lying both to yourself and others? By trying to distort/enforece/impose favourable reality onto yourself and others around? By trying to coerce/manipulate them into reflecting the image you want them to back at you so that the illusion you weaved can be maintained? By hating the faulty mirror for not doing that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    unfortunately, the blindspots are largely proving to be within the blindspots, so asking straight forward questions has proved repeatedly to be mostly useless (with very few exceptions who know who they are): instead of self conscious insight all you get is a combination of attempts to distance one's self & reactionary self-righteous justification to how it might imply something negative, and those justifications usually in line perfectly with the very same pattern of an inability to examine one self from another's perspective. the doorslammed react but arguing with the answers they received - the justifications, the doorslammers react to that as a demand for further justification and end up feeling like they are on trial, the association with typology gives the trial a tribal twist towards MBTI as a source of identity bringing other INFJs in (in particular sensitive those who identify with it as a way to compensate for feeling misunderstood most of their lives), all while demonstrating the very behavior they attempt to argue against, reinforcing the opposition, which in turn reinforces what is basically ganging up [on people using their live stories to treat you as punching bags, apparently].
    I think you should criticize yourself as well and acknowledge the part your incoherent method of communication played towards inefficiency of the dialogue...The problem is that our questions remain unanswered/deflected, which causes frustration...And it is you who is making the tribal association by assuming that given your ex-spouse was an INFJ, INFJs here should answer for her perceived crimes/faults/sins...You should have provided a distinct caveat here that your personal experience/history may very well be quite different from what INFJs here associate/mean with "doorslam"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    it can be repeated endlessly, and all it does is provide further evidence towards the same areas of the mental schema, same patterns of dancing around any possibility for looking at one's self. same old freaking dance going nowhere. in the mean time, there is a lot more to be learned by extrapolating on the models internally to different directions and testing for possible reactions to various arguments and emotional conditions.
    Do you mean teasing/taunting/trolling/poking?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    i realize how condescending that can sound, because.. well, it is, no excuses there. but i don't think i blocked the door for honest exchange - there's a hill to climb on but the requirement to do so is never higher than the ability to put your ego aside, which in the case of self examination seems like a requirement for honest exchange anyway.
    You first.....Oh by the way, who's standing on top of the hill?

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Any discussion has to be mutually beneficial in some way, or else there's no reason to engage though. From what I've seen, there is an ENTP tendency to poke people to see how they respond, in an effort to gather information. After awhile though, people resent being poked or treated like your science experiment. I just think that you may be missing out on an element of useful information that would add to your mental model if that was not the sole approach.
    Second that...

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    ...I think what bothers me most about your stated approach is that it shows no consideration of the people you are trying to glean information from as equals. It feels more that you are attempting to manipulate them into responding in such a way that you can get your reaction, take away your results and go without regard for the mess you may be leaving behind, or for what you have to offer in return.
    Second that...

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    If I could understand the thought process behind that better, it would be most helpful. If I am missing information, I would like to understand it in a more accurate light.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mane
    i have, ,and occasionally still do. especially throughout this thread when i did not yet adapt to the reality nor become jaded enough, i was very much still asking for straight forward honest feedback. in the past i've also asked for very direct information, and i got little to nothing. so i've wondered whether it was me or something about how i was doing it, and looked to many past cases and the few cases since here and elsewhere, and if anything i'd said they got hit even worst. i mean did you see the reaction to the doorslammed-mid-pregnancy girl? relatively to hers, the reaction i got here might as well be gold.

    my point is: given the opportunity, i would absolutely love to be able to talk about this as equals, like a person talking to a person, the good ol' fashioned way, not having to tip toe around the Ni dungeon. but i am honestly exhausted of trying to force it to happen. when it does it does, when it doesn't, i go for the alternative (better yet - in this case the alternative came to me).
    Mane, congratulations, you've just won yourself a:


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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    ...just my points heard out...
    they where, to which as far as you've showed me so far, you provided the best most well thought out answer you were able to master:
    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Mane...you are wrong...
    you are invited and welcomed to correct my assumption that it is the best you where able to master, demonstrate that you can put your ego aside and pay attention to the logic underlining it, even counter it. the rope is always there. until then, this is the bar where my expectations of you are placed at.


    oh and the closest thing you had to an actual argument rather then an empty statement so far:
    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Well Mane, prove your innocence to me on the things I accused you of...just prove me wrong...feel free to demonstrate your point with examples in the process..
    yes, being asked to prove the negative of a negative (a.k.a. proving a positive) is clearly the same as being asked to prove a direct negative. may the straw vulcan be with you.
    When an INFJ doorslams you / cuts you out of their life / breaks off contact Attached Images

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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Generally I've learned something new from interacting with people whose thought processes are very different than mine and I find it is useful to better inform my own reactions, assumptions or perceptions. It also sometimes points out information that I wouldn't think of that should be factored into the mix. For me, it takes a considerable amount of time after getting new information to test it in different contexts, decide where it might be useful or come back with more questions. So while I may seem closed initially, usually it means I just need time to think it over. I think it's interesting to hear how different Eilonwy's perceptions were after a considerable amount of time had elapsed and she reread the thread. I believe that any interaction we have should impact us in some way. So I guess I'd say the reason for participating in any of these threads is to be more informed or gather missing bits of info, and sometimes even to duke it out until a better understanding of each other emerges. I like knowing what to expect from people and this adds to my mental model construction.
    leaving the context and possibly type specifics unbolded - isn't the rest applicable to anyone's conversation with anyone? i thought that in asking for the intention you were asking for the intention that would explain the general behavior to make sense of it all. i attempted to give you mine, so i was sort of looking for the reciprocation of that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    but asked a logistical question about drawing boundaries.
    it seems to be the specifics are always going to be context dependent, but generally behavior doesn't happen in a vacuum, so its a lot more useful to back and examine the dynamic and see where you can cause the impact that will break it, either by doing something you aren't or stopping to do something you are.

    for an applied personal recent example:


    as a general rule, there is always something that can be done, the emotional downside of it is acknowledging that their was something you could have done and thus taking responsibility for the negative aspects but i find that a good rule of thumbs is that responsibility rarely a zero sum game - the answer of who is responsible to something in a relationship is almost always going to be both simply because either one has the capacity to influence the results, and also in a way it's empowering (with great responsibility comes power? the line spiderman would have said if he had an e8 in his tritype).

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    Senior Member Array yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia
    Any discussion has to be mutually beneficial in some way, or else there's no reason to engage though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    any ideas?
    -What actions of yours (specifically) triggered stress in your ex-spouse?
    -What actions of hers (specifically) triggered stress in you, put you in a blind spot?
    -Why and what did you (specifically) tell about her to the people in your public circle?
    -For how long should INFJs maintain relationships that they are not comfortable with?
    -When would it be OK for INFJs (or anyone else for that matter) to end the relationship by their own choice? When enough is enough?
    -What kind of relationship dynamics tax your resources, cause you stress?
    -How do you deal with relationships that you are not comfortable maintaining (that tax your resources)?
    -What, in terms of mbti, could be your weak/blind spots that you should work towards personal growth?

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia
    Any discussion has to be mutually beneficial in some way, or else there's no reason to engage though. From what I've seen, there is an ENTP tendency to poke people to see how they respond, in an effort to gather information. After awhile though, people resent being poked or treated like your science experiment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    understandable.
    Mane, you don't have a problem with that? Could it be that you are driving away people by doing that? Could that be, in a way, your way of doorslamming people? Or could it be that you have never opened your door to them to begin with?

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia
    Also, despite you taking time to say what you'd gotten out of the thread upon second reading, his response was not to engage with you on that in any real way.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    FYI - i have, i was just apprehensive about the social consequences it would have to her with me doing so publicly.
    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Really? I can't see why that would have negative repercussions. She's already put herself out there and really to me it looked like you hung her out to dry for her pains.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    how am i supposed to know how you guys run the INFJ office politics?

    (seriously, i just wasn't sure what if any group dynamic their is and what could it entail so i didn't say anything until @Eilonwy told me it's fine)
    Well Mane, you deflected the questions and still haven't said anything about her post...not that you have to but you could have at least given her a hint that you took her points into consideration by reciprocating your take on her points...

    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    Also, one of the possible negative repercussions of Mane publicly engaging me in this thread has already been brought up--the appearance of him and I ganging-up. Once that idea takes hold, then anything I have to say can easily be dismissed as favoritism or taking sides by anyone who doesn't want to consider what I have to say.
    The feeling of ganging-up I had was related only to the "Dude" photo...I don't have any reservations in my mind about you sharing your thoughs on the issue even when they may overlap with Mane's...

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    The same might be said of yours. You have no doubt heard the advice given to fiction authors, that it is better to show than to tell.
    Well, I have been trying to do that...You might consider doing that too...

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post

    Originally Posted by fidelia

    Again, the issue seems to be that I then can't figure out your intent for communicating certain information and if I can't figure out the intent, I have no way of evaluating whether or not I have anything to contribute that would be of use, and if I can't do that, I'd just prefer not to expend the emotional energy needed to engage in an exchange that is potentially frustrating.
    Well, you could start by considering the information on its own merits. Does it seem accurate, reasonable, useful? Is it consistent with what else you know on the topic? Does it pique your curiosity, or prompt a question? Do you see an error or misunderstanding you might correct? All of this is possible without understanding anything about the poster's intent, especially here where the threads are public, and an answer directed at one person can be read by many.

    Or, go with #5 above, and just ask for clarification. I can never understand why people prefer to assume than to ask.
    @Coriolis, we have been keeping asking for clarifications but our questions keep getting deflected via non-answers/rhetoric that does not address the actual question...We ask him "What shape is it?" and he responds "The sound it makes feel funny to me"..wtf?

    We do not know what to do with the (non-)answers Mane gives us...because it does not clarify the parts that we want clarified...we ask for clarification on a piece of the puzzle but the answer we get in return does not fit with the entirety of the puzzle itself...So what @fidelia means by intent, IMO, is that we do not understand/know what to do with the pseudo-answers Mane gives back to our questions...They are useless in terms of INFJs' understanding the issue cause they do not clarify at all...So we are asking Mane..."what's your intent in sharing that specific piece of information with us?"

    In return, Mane acts as if he has shared with us a revealing piece of the puzzle but we have failed and/or refused to grasp and integrate it onto the puzzle due to our blindspots and uninsightfulness.??? The problem from my point of view is that what he shared is not a piece of the puzzle...It does not relate to the puzzle...That being so, I cannot integrate it into my overall thinking/reasoning mechanism...

    Btw, you came here with a negative tone, why? Have you read the earlier discussions in the thread?

    For instance, what do you make of the belowgiven piece of information? What do you conclude/deduce from it in terms of your framework of reasoning/understanding? Crunch it into a pattern for us INFJs here please, so that we can integrate it into our own framework...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane
    the situation: a recently woman in my life was driving me mad with drama's putting putting the relationship itself on it's own existential crisis every other day, to the point where it found i didn't have the time or mental space to pay attention to even required college projects, not to mention my own.

    taking a step back: i saw that earlier differences in expectations of the relationship resulted in multiply possibilities hanging in the air, and while i thought i was merely being honest about the dilemma i was trying to sort through and thinking out loud about the opposite choices, from her perspective that meant me expressing very conflicting signals. in other words: ofcourse she was acting insane about the relationship, i was the one driving her insane in the first place - which in turn added an unbalanced weight on my decision regarding her.

    impact: since the negative impact was in sharing both sides, decide on one to share, process the other internally.

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    Vulnerability Array Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Originally Posted by Eilonwy
    Also, one of the possible negative repercussions of Mane publicly engaging me in this thread has already been brought up--the appearance of him and I ganging-up. Once that idea takes hold, then anything I have to say can easily be dismissed as favoritism or taking sides by anyone who doesn't want to consider what I have to say.
    The feeling of ganging-up I had was related only to the "Dude" photo...I don't have any reservations in my mind about you sharing your thoughs on the issue even when they may overlap with Mane's...
    What I said was only referencing the fact that "ganging-up" had been brought up and could be interpreted negatively by anyone reading this thread, since it is a public thread, and people do tend to join in once they've 'chosen a side'. I've seen the results of that kind of thing over and over. I wasn't trying to interpret your actual reaction, or how you might feel about what caused the reaction, or how you might feel about future interactions. I was talking about group dynamics.
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    @yeghor, in the slim chance that you would become irritating enough ( which seems to be your angle) for me to consider treating you fairly, i should at least give you this, something i did learn something from FPs - the pro active application of the golden rule:

    when i was entering this discussion, i had no idea about it's scope from anyone's perspective, spanning many threads before it and branching in multiply threads across (according to some rumors some of the roots for the discussions are in forums that predate the creation of this one), with the majority of the participants having being part of the overall discussion for so long that none were particularly able to discern what information and context they had from one particular thread or another.

    now i am part of that myself and it would be as forced for me as it was for anyone else, but in retrospect, i would have probably appreciated being informed on the fact, personally, if for nothing else then for avoiding specific situations of miscommunication, some of which are sort of funny looking back (like someone interpreting something i said as me arguing with @fidelia about a past story from her life when it was quite possibly one of the first time i've read & responded to her at all let alone know about her past discussions enough to continue them). i doubt you'd be able to appreciate it at this point - unless you'll stay with us quite possibly not for awhile - and i am pretty sure @PeaceBaby has tried pointing this out earlier, but regardless, consider yourself informed. given that most of your current arguments are on the basis of absence of information or reactions, instead of communication the reaction you attempt to point at, the main resulting reaction is probably closer to "huh wait was the information to the contrary said after this or before this or here or elsewhere?", i suspect that knowing this might have even more value to you.

    as for the reason you have the gesture above btw, is that hidden within the crap, you actually hit on something worthwhile:
    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Mane, you don't have a problem with that? Could it be that you are driving away people by doing that? Could that be, in a way, your way of doorslamming people? Or could it be that you have never opened your door to them to begin with?
    do you believe the two to be the same? cutting off an existing relationship and merely not pursuing one?

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    Vulnerability Array Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Originally Posted by Eilonwy
    Okay, here's an emotion-filled post from me because I'm in a hurry and not inclined to think before I act. My apologies to yeghor, because I'm going to throw him under a bus right now.
    Originally Posted by Eilonwy
    What I don't understand is that, so far, people have been telling Mane to modify his tone, but no one has come out and told yeghor to modify his. Why is that? Why is it okay for yeghor to throw out insensitive proclamations and judgements? Why is it okay for him to diagnose Mane based on assumptions? Why is it okay for yeghor to have his hurt feelings soothed, but not Mane? Why is it not okay for Mane to have his say in something he didn't even start?

    I don't get it.

    I (and others?) am not complaining about his tone...I am complaining that his facts are obscured under a thick goo...From my perspective both Mane and I are throwing insensitive judgments at each other but at least I am trying to be as concise and clear in my wording in doing that so that the other party can literally get what I mean...Again, this is about his thoughts and reasoning being obscured...it is as if he is deliberately obscuring them...it's like smoke and mirrors...perhaps even some kind of taunting/teasing/trolling...
    Esoteric Wench and fidelia both asked for Mane to tone it down or change his style. I can go back and link to the posts if you like, but I'm not inclined to take the time right now. I didn't specify which people were telling Mane to tone it down, but you were not one of the ones I had in mind because what I saw is that you were bantering back and forth with him. I didn't see you having any trouble participating in the conversation the two of you were having or saying you didn't want to participate because of his tone. The problems start when other people then join in that conversation with their own interpretations of who's right and who's wrong.

    Do you see your assumption here? Do you see how you interpreted my statement as personal to you? I do this all the time, assuming and interpreting things as personal to me. It's part of why I didn't understand what Mane was saying in the first place, and also one of my contributions to communication problems that I'm trying to work on.

    I have never asked my feelings to be soothed by the way...just my points heard out...He has a right to have his say but if he does not make a conscious effort to make what he says comprehensible to his audience, what's the point of communication...it turns into a monologue rather than a dialogue...
    I didn't say that you did ask for your feelings to be soothed. Read the words I wrote without adding to them.

    Mane might have the right to have his say, but when he tries to do that in his own voice, he's told that he has to change his tone in order for him to be heard. I didn't see anyone saying that to you. And even though I told you I thought some things you said were insensitive, I didn't say that I wouldn't be able to hear you if you didn't change your tone. Do you see where you and Mane were getting different treatment and how that could lead to an unfair reading of Mane's side of the conversation?

    By the way as a clarification, it would be faulty in my opinion to decide who's right/wrong in any event by comparing which one of the parties hurt/emote more strongly...the emotions felt (and/or emitted outside) by someone should not be a measure in gauging that person's being right or wrong in interpersonal relationships...
    But, unfortunately, it can be part of human nature to do just that--decide who's right or wrong based on emotions felt.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

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