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  1. #991
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Any discussion has to be mutually beneficial in some way, or else there's no reason to engage though.
    any ideas?



    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Any discussion has to be mutually beneficial in some way, or else there's no reason to engage though. From what I've seen, there is an ENTP tendency to poke people to see how they respond, in an effort to gather information. After awhile though, people resent being poked or treated like your science experiment.
    understandable.


    but like i said:
    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I just think that you may be missing out on an element of useful information that would add to your mental model if that was not the sole approach.
    i have, ,and occasionally still do. especially throughout this thread when i did not yet adapt to the reality nor become jaded enough, i was very much still asking for straight forward honest feedback. in the past i've also asked for very direct information, and i got little to nothing. so i've wondered whether it was me or something about how i was doing it, and looked to many past cases and the few cases since here and elsewhere, and if anything i'd said they got hit even worst. i mean did you see the reaction to the doorslammed-mid-pregnancy girl? relatively to hers, the reaction i got here might as well be gold.

    my point is: given the opportunity, i would absolutely love to be able to talk about this as equals, like a person talking to a person, the good ol' fashioned way, not having to tip toe around the Ni dungeon. but i am honestly exhausted of trying to force it to happen. when it does it does, when it doesn't, i go for the alternative (better yet - in this case the alternative came to me).

  2. #992
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    FYI -

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Also, despite you taking time to say what you'd gotten out of the thread upon second reading, his response was not to engage with you on that in any real way.
    i have, i was just apprehensive about the social consequences it would have to her with me doing so publicly.

  3. #993
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Really? I can't see why that would have negative repercussions. She's already put herself out there and really to me it looked like you hung her out to dry for her pains.

  4. #994
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    She's already put herself out there and really to me it looked like you hung her out to dry for her pains.
    He didn't hang me out to dry. But even if he had, what I've been saying wouldn't have changed. Because what I learned wasn't about Mane, but about myself.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  5. #995
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I can't see why that would have negative repercussions.
    how am i supposed to know how you guys run the INFJ office politics?

    (seriously, i just wasn't sure what if any group dynamic their is and what could it entail so i didn't say anything until @Eilonwy told me it's fine)

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    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Also, one of the possible negative repercussions of Mane publicly engaging me in this thread has already been brought up--the appearance of him and I ganging-up. Once that idea takes hold, then anything I have to say can easily be dismissed as favoritism or taking sides by anyone who doesn't want to consider what I have to say.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  7. #997
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I realize that, Eilonwy. I'm just talking in terms of understanding where he was going with participation in the thread. It's not even that I feel emotionally invested. It's just that I like understanding what is going on and how to relate and it frustrates me when the person doesn't seem to be giving clear enough signals to do that.

  8. #998
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I'm just talking in terms of understanding where he was going with participation in the thread.
    why are you? throughout these discussions i kept hearing INFJs either demanding the intent of others or making various claims to what they think it is, yourself included. hopefully by now i clarified mine. what is yours? and i don't mean just with me - before me and after me - in general, engaging those who had various negative experiences with INFJs is as much of a choice for you as it is for them to engage you. what is your intent?

  9. #999
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    there's a good dose of irony in the typological conversation about dismissing people vs. dismissing arguments there that i am sure i will find funny to watch as it comes back in the future... but in the mean time:
    As a relevant aside, I suspect INFJs are more likely to dismiss people, while INTJs are more likely to dismiss arguments . . . which can easily be interpreted as a personal dismissal by many folks.

    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    I sense a lot of rage, projection, gaslighting, denial etc. behaviour in your posts...you seriously refuse to see reason and are stuck in your views...I really think you should do a reality check IRL to identify that I am, hopefully, mistaken...
    The same might be said of yours. You have no doubt heard the advice given to fiction authors, that it is better to show than to tell.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    1) I miss a lot of information because I hear things through my own filters, biases, and past issues.
    3) I tend to read emotional data where there is none.
    4) Instead of reading/hearing the actual words, I tend to get impressions of what is said, and those impressions can be off.
    5) Instead of stopping and asking what someone means, I can tend to assign a motivation to them based on my gut feeling.
    7) I don't always want to hear or consider criticism because it can bring up very strong, uncomfortable feelings that I don't want to feel or deal with.
    These in particular can be a big problem, especially when dealing with Ts, and especially #3 and #4. We just don't give off the same signals that F-types do. It can be tempting to fill the gaps in that part of the information spectrum with something, but the something is rarely accurate.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Again, the issue seems to be that I then can't figure out your intent for communicating certain information and if I can't figure out the intent, I have no way of evaluating whether or not I have anything to contribute that would be of use, and if I can't do that, I'd just prefer not to expend the emotional energy needed to engage in an exchange that is potentially frustrating.
    Well, you could start by considering the information on its own merits. Does it seem accurate, reasonable, useful? Is it consistent with what else you know on the topic? Does it pique your curiosity, or prompt a question? Do you see an error or misunderstanding you might correct? All of this is possible without understanding anything about the poster's intent, especially here where the threads are public, and an answer directed at one person can be read by many.

    Or, go with #5 above, and just ask for clarification. I can never understand why people prefer to assume than to ask.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  10. #1000
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    why are you? throughout these discussions i kept hearing INFJs either demanding the intent of others or making various claims to what they think it is, yourself included. hopefully by now i clarified mine. what is yours? and i don't mean just with me - before me and after me - in general, engaging those who had various negative experiences with INFJs is as much of a choice for you as it is for them to engage you. what is your intent?
    Generally I've learned something new from interacting with people whose thought processes are very different than mine and I find it is useful to better inform my own reactions, assumptions or perceptions. It also sometimes points out information that I wouldn't think of that should be factored into the mix. For me, it takes a considerable amount of time after getting new information to test it in different contexts, decide where it might be useful or come back with more questions. So while I may seem closed initially, usually it means I just need time to think it over. I think it's interesting to hear how different Eilonwy's perceptions were after a considerable amount of time had elapsed and she reread the thread. I believe that any interaction we have should impact us in some way. So I guess I'd say the reason for participating in any of these threads is to be more informed or gather missing bits of info, and sometimes even to duke it out until a better understanding of each other emerges. I like knowing what to expect from people and this adds to my mental model construction.

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