User Tag List

123 Last

Results 1 to 10 of 46

  1. #1
    Aspiring Troens Ridder KLessard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1w2
    Posts
    595

    Lightbulb David and Jonathan � "He loved him as his own soul."

    I would like to start a thread about something thats been on my mind for a long time as an Idealist; as far as childhood, actually. I dont know if any of you are familiar with the Old Testament story of David and Goliath, and how David became a very dear friend of the king's son Jonathan. I like the description we have of their meeting:

    "And it came to pass, when [David] had made an end of speaking unto Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul."
    (1 Samuel 18:1)

    Having read the Old Testament many, many times, I dont think it would be extravagant to say Jonathan is INFJ and David NFP. This would be a very special case of idealist-idealist soul-to-soul friendship. We see later that the friendship was truly mutual when Jonathan is killed in battle and David writes a lament about it:

    "I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan; very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women." (2 Samuel 1:26)

    I have sometimes read that Jonathan and David were homosexuals, but I believe we are dealing with idealistic soul-mating here. As David himself describes it, it was a connection "passing the love of women," in other words, a love beyond Eros.
    This deep friendship has nothing to do with Eros. I remember reading in Keirseys Please Understand Me that idealists will sometimes value friendship above romance and seek it rather than romance.
    It is definitely true for me, and also for an ENFP friend of mine who could care less about romance as well. We both have tried to understand this.
    How insulted I was when my ESTJ mother would misunderstand me and suspect I was a lesbian because I cared very much about a female friend, sometimes. It has nothing to do with Eros for me! Do you know what I mean? What are your experiences with this?

    If idealists seek mating that is soul-to-soul, this can happen with anybody. A child, a husband, a friend, a teacher, no?

  2. #2
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    7w6
    Socionics
    ENFp
    Posts
    6,075

    Default

    I've always thought it was a very interesting friendship. I agree that "homosexual love" wouldn't encompass what they were discussing. It was a soulmate kind of love.

  3. #3
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    FREE
    Enneagram
    594 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ne
    Posts
    42,333

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Elaur View Post
    I've always thought it was a very interesting friendship. I agree that "homosexual love" wouldn't encompass what they were discussing. It was a soulmate kind of love.
    That was my take too. I usually feel like the homosexual issue comes up when people seek to validate their own sexuality within Biblical history, but I don't think this relationship is indicating that style of support.

    One note: They were not of the same generation. Study the history in the Bible and you'll see Jonathan fighting battles twenty years before David came around. It was like a connection between a 20 and 40 year old in terms of age. Jonathan was also the youngest of the three brothers but I suppose still in line to the kingship; it said something, I think, for him to support David's claim to the throne against that of his brothers and father.


    Tangent: I always saw David as INFJ. He had a very very severe sense of right and wrong (I can't imagine an INFP male saying "Let me tackle the 8' tall giant because he has defamed God!", the INFP would waver back and forth at that age and not want to hurt anyone typically even if he was offended... David even at THAT age was ruthless, severe, and aggressive.) Even later in life, he had sharp opinions and took action based on them. This has been fairly typical of INFJ guys I have known; but not typical INFP, who interacts primarily with world through Ne.

    Not that it matters what they were... just a note, in case it ties in with any other ideas the OP might have.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #4
    Aspiring Troens Ridder KLessard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1w2
    Posts
    595

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Tangent: I always saw David as INFJ. He had a very very severe sense of right and wrong (I can't imagine an INFP male saying "Let me tackle the 8' tall giant because he has defamed God!", the INFP would waver back and forth at that age and not want to hurt anyone typically even if he was offended... David even at THAT age was ruthless, severe, and aggressive.) Even later in life, he had sharp opinions and took action based on them. This has been fairly typical of INFJ guys I have known; but not typical INFP, who interacts primarily with world through Ne.

    Not that it matters what they were... just a note, in case it ties in with any other ideas the OP might have.
    The reason I saw him as NFP (I thought his boldness perhaps linked to E) was how he is so attuned to his inner feelings (Fi) and claiming in the psalms that he always speaks accordingly to the truth found in his heart (or something to that effect). I see a lot in common with Joan of Arc who is typically INFP.

    As for David the poet and songwriter, I also see something of the lyrical NFP. I might be wrong. As INFJ, I don't relate to David that much. More to Jonathan.
    How do you see Jonathan, then?

  5. #5
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/so
    Posts
    1,565

    Default

    I think it's usually a mistake to judge biblical relationships by modern standards. Remember that even marriages, for example, were mostly about property rights at the time. The women were very literally property of their husbands (or fathers or nearest male relative). They had no rights to own property themselves, and were mostly treated as highly prized possessions. When some talk of "traditional marriages" "like in the Bible" I sometimes wonder if they realize how wildly that could be interpreted.

    I think we make a similar mistake when we treat other biblical relationships as a modern day gay relationship. There doesn't appear to have been any conception of a modern day, egalitarian gay relationship model at the time. So, while I think it's fine to play "what if" games, I think what was going on in David's and Jonathan's relationship is pretty opaque. Just as well to take it at face value.

    I think it also pays to keep in mind that as recently as Abraham Lincoln's day, two men sharing a bed wasn't thought to mean anything in particular. Beds were expensive, and men weren't as paranoid about physical contact.

    I think one irony about gay people being more visible is that it seems to have had a negative effect on male intimacy in general. Straight men today seem very paranoid about non-sexual emotional and physical intimacy with another man being interpreted as gay. I think that's too bad, because men in general don't built the kind of emotional support networks that women do.

    (Sorry to go off on tangents, but I think it's an interesting topic.)

  6. #6
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    FREE
    Enneagram
    594 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ne
    Posts
    42,333

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KLessard View Post
    The reason I saw him as NFP (I thought his boldness perhaps linked to E) was how he is so attuned to his inner feelings and claiming in the psalms that he acts accordingly to the truth found in his heart (or something to that effect). I see a lot in common with Joan of Arc who is typically INFP.
    It's okay, I see her as INFJ as well.

    Inner vision is far more Ni; the external is constrained and focused (Je function, NOT a Pe function), the inner sees a blinding vision of What Should Be.

    Both were young (she died by age 20), so I don't see it as a matter of becoming more well-rounded.

    As a poet and songwriter, I also see something of the NFP in David. I might be wrong. As INFJ, I don't relate to David that much. More to Jonathan.
    How do you see Jonathan, then?
    As an INP I identified with David a lot growing up, in terms of the Psalms he wrote... but not with his insanely obstinate judgment of others resulting in actually trying to hurt and kill them.

    (Examine the Psalms and you'll see some pretty horrendous stuff that David said. I can identify with the "nice stuff" and self-agony but NOT with the "Murder their children, let their wives be barren, make them burn in the pits of hell forever, bring plagues on them" ... I mean, he just said and really meant some very dreadful things, David had a RUTHLESS sense of vengeance on those who would stand against him. INFPs do not do this; INFJs do pretty easily though; vengeance against one's enemies is not atypical.)

    As far as Jonathan goes, I really don't know. He's not as well defined to me.
    If I had to guess totally off the wall, I would pick ISFP, but that's purely a "feel" thing and I have little to back it up... except just his tangible gentleness with David and otherwise inability to really be very self-directed.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #7
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/sx
    Socionics
    IEI Ni
    Posts
    7,661

    Default

    Hmm, I could see David as an NFP. There's something very passionate in his feeling that says Fi to me. I agree with the OP about the interpretation of David and Jonathan's relationship.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Tangent: I always saw David as INFJ. He had a very very severe sense of right and wrong (I can't imagine an INFP male saying "Let me tackle the 8' tall giant because he has defamed God!", the INFP would waver back and forth at that age and not want to hurt anyone typically even if he was offended... David even at THAT age was ruthless, severe, and aggressive.)
    INFPs take action when something hits a value bomb. We may be timid in our personal matters, but conflicts which involve our ideals can meet with quite a force.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jung
    It may, perhaps, break out in some extravagant form, leading to some astounding act of an almost heroic character
    In context, this refers to an intensive "sympathy" a Fi-dom may feel, and how it can come out in a seemingly unrelated way to what stirred it, but I think it's fair to say this line is the basis for statements like this in INFP profiles:

    INFPs are flexible and laid-back, until one of their values is violated. In the face of their value system being threatened, INFPs can become aggressive defenders, fighting passionately for their cause.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    I think it's usually a mistake to judge biblical relationships by modern standards. Remember that even marriages, for example, were mostly about property rights at the time. The women were very literally property of their husbands (or fathers or nearest male relative). They had no rights to own property themselves, and were mostly treated as highly prized possessions. When some talk of "traditional marriages" "like in the Bible" I sometimes wonder if they realize how wildly that could be interpreted.
    The capable wife described in the Psalms bought and managed land with her own money. She also dealt directly with merchants selling things she had made. It seems clear she was not just property of a husband. The "ideal" capable wife described in those verses is a very intelligent, industrious women with a lot of authority in her home and power over her own life.

    Her legal rights to the land is debatable, but that has more to do with customs of the time than what is considered correct by God's standards, which can be yielding in view of human imperfection.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  8. #8
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    3,377

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Tangent: I always saw David as INFJ.
    Heh, I always saw him this way too. Some of his psalms look like he is working through his revenge feelings to me. At the beginning he says stuff like, "let them die like dogs". But by the end of the psalm everything is good and he's happy again.
    My wife and I made a game to teach kids about nutrition. Please try our game and vote for us to win. (Voting period: July 14 - August 14)
    http://www.revoltingvegetables.com

  9. #9
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/so
    Posts
    1,565

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    The capable wife described in the Psalms bought and managed land with her own money. She also dealt directly with merchants selling things she had made. It seems clear she was not just property of a husband. The "ideal" capable wife described in those verses is a very intelligent, industrious women with a lot of authority in her home and power over her own life.

    Her legal rights to the land is debatable, but that has more to do with customs of the time than what is considered correct by God's standards, which can be yielding in view of human imperfection.
    (Odd day... talking about bible verses and deviant sex practices in the same day.)

    You mean in Proverbs 31? I think a reader of the time would assume that any authority she was granted was allowed her by her husband. I do admit it sounds like she was engaging in economic transactions (as a trusted servant would). It does say "she looketh well to the ways of her household," and earlier says "her husband is known at the gates..." which makes it sound like the results of her virtue accrue to his reputation. I suspect that the closing verse, "Give her the fruit of her hands, and let her own work praise her at the gates" was noteworthy because unlike the rest of the passage, it implies giving her personal credit for all her good works. I suspect this would be seen as unusual for the culture and a sign of God's special favor (and perhaps her husband's progressiveness).

    While the Old Testament covers a broad historical period, it's pretty clear in other places that women are normally property. For example in Exodus: "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's." The writer is listing possession in order of value. Or Exodus 21:7: "And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do." A man was allowed to sell his daughter as a slave, and women weren't subject to the 6 year limitation of slavery.

    Exodus 21:22-25... if a man hits a pregnant wife leading to miscarriage, he has to pay her husband, she gets nothing. Numbers 27:8-11: the only case where women are allowed to inherent property is if there are no male descendants.

    Or Deuteronomy 22:28-29: raped virgin woman must marry her attacker, and he has to pay her father. Again, property has been used in a such a way that it is no value to another, so restitution must be made.

    All of that isn't to say that people weren't people then, or that women weren't capable and intelligent. Just that the whole assumption of marriage being a relationship primary of equality was missing then.

    I find it an interesting parallel to questions of whether various historical figures were "really gay." Whether the person engaged in homosexual acts, the meaning to their self-identity and the power dynamics in the relationship would likely be extremely foreign to people today.

    Addendum: I do think some things have been lost in modern times by ascribing the romance of friendship between same sex people to "homosexual impulses." Friendships can involve non-sexual, friendly infatuation of a kind, but it isn't necessarily eros. I would say that David's and Jonathan's relationship could be a deep, non-sexual friendship, and there isn't anything necessarily gay about it.

  10. #10
    nevermore lane777's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    635

    Default

    Me and my ESFJ friend have this kind of relationship. Interesting you suggest that Jonathon is an INFJ, since I recently told this ESFJ that I'm her Jonathon and she's my David. Yeah, we had a moment
    To die would be an awfully big adventure - Peter Pan

    INFJ ~ 4w5 sp/sx ~ RLOAI ~ Inclusion e/w=1/0 (Melancholy Compulsive) Control: e/w=0/6 (Supine) Affection: e/w=4/0 (Phlegmatic Melancholy)

Similar Threads

  1. [ENFP] What attracts an ENFP male and how do you keep him?
    By Lightyear in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 51
    Last Post: 01-24-2017, 03:58 PM
  2. Does anyone love cricket as much as me
    By mystery in forum Arts & Entertainment
    Replies: 91
    Last Post: 04-06-2014, 12:48 PM
  3. I love you as much as......
    By tinkerbell in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 02-12-2010, 05:23 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO