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  1. #11
    Senior Member Kristiana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLessard View Post
    I would like to start a thread about something thats been on my mind for a long time as an Idealist; as far as childhood, actually. I dont know if any of you are familiar with the Old Testament story of David and Goliath, and how David became a very dear friend of the king's son Jonathan. I like the description we have of their meeting:

    "And it came to pass, when [David] had made an end of speaking unto Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul."
    (1 Samuel 18:1)

    Having read the Old Testament many, many times, I dont think it would be extravagant to say Jonathan is INFJ and David NFP. This would be a very special case of idealist-idealist soul-to-soul friendship. We see later that the friendship was truly mutual when Jonathan is killed in battle and David writes a lament about it:

    "I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan; very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women." (2 Samuel 1:26)

    I have sometimes read that Jonathan and David were homosexuals, but I believe we are dealing with idealistic soul-mating here. As David himself describes it, it was a connection "passing the love of women," in other words, a love beyond Eros.
    This deep friendship has nothing to do with Eros. I remember reading in Keirseys Please Understand Me that idealists will sometimes value friendship above romance and seek it rather than romance.
    It is definitely true for me, and also for an ENFP friend of mine who could care less about romance as well. We both have tried to understand this.
    How insulted I was when my ESTJ mother would misunderstand me and suspect I was a lesbian because I cared very much about a female friend, sometimes. It has nothing to do with Eros for me! Do you know what I mean? What are your experiences with this?

    If idealists seek mating that is soul-to-soul, this can happen with anybody. A child, a husband, a friend, a teacher, no?
    I love this thread.

    My husband and I have two cats that we named David and Jonathan, because they loved each other so much that everyone at the cat shelter wanted them to go to the same home.

    We named our red tabby David because upon meeting them both, we could see he was more extroverted than our Siamese mix, Jonathan. We figured that David in the Bible was more E than Jonathan, so that was our reasoning. We think that our David is ENxP and our Jonathan is INTJ (yes, I know that MBTI-ing your pets isn't exactly the most accurate, but so what? it's fun!).

    Our David and Jonathan are both neutered (and our other lovely kitty, Amanda, is spayed), so they do not have any Eros for anyone.
    j'adore les chats

  2. #12
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Originally Posted by Jung
    He posts now? That's AWESOME!

  3. #13
    Senior Member Lightyear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elaur View Post
    He posts now? That's AWESOME!
    Isn't it!!

  4. #14
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    (Odd day... talking about bible verses and deviant sex practices in the same day.)

    You mean in Proverbs 31? I think a reader of the time would assume that any authority she was granted was allowed her by her husband. I do admit it sounds like she was engaging in economic transactions (as a trusted servant would). It does say "she looketh well to the ways of her household," and earlier says "her husband is known at the gates..." which makes it sound like the results of her virtue accrue to his reputation. I suspect that the closing verse, "Give her the fruit of her hands, and let her own work praise her at the gates" was noteworthy because unlike the rest of the passage, it implies giving her personal credit for all her good works. I suspect this would be seen as unusual for the culture and a sign of God's special favor (and perhaps her husband's progressiveness).

    While the Old Testament covers a broad historical period, it's pretty clear in other places that women are normally property. For example in Exodus: "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's." The writer is listing possession in order of value. Or Exodus 21:7: "And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do." A man was allowed to sell his daughter as a slave, and women weren't subject to the 6 year limitation of slavery.

    Exodus 21:22-25... if a man hits a pregnant wife leading to miscarriage, he has to pay her husband, she gets nothing. Numbers 27:8-11: the only case where women are allowed to inherent property is if there are no male descendants.

    Or Deuteronomy 22:28-29: raped virgin woman must marry her attacker, and he has to pay her father. Again, property has been used in a such a way that it is no value to another, so restitution must be made.

    All of that isn't to say that people weren't people then, or that women weren't capable and intelligent. Just that the whole assumption of marriage being a relationship primary of equality was missing then.
    You're adding some personal interpretation there & taking things out of context, and you missed my point in saying God was yielding in his standards (which I could find numerous texts for, but that's hi-jacking the thread further). The Mosaic law is very much a regulating of a culture and it's existing standards. It did not correct all views and practices, hence, the principles behind them are what is to be considered. The main principle is that women were to be valued and cared for in a time when they were viewed as property by most cultures in the world.

    Anyway, I don't like to discuss the bible or religion online for the very reason that so much gets taken out of context and it's exhausting to go back & forth and have to quote stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elaur View Post
    He posts now? That's AWESOME!


    I can't take credit for quoting Psychological Types that way...another user did so after I had posted some excerpts from it in the "Fi 101" thread.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  5. #15
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    You're adding some personal interpretation there & taking things out of context, and you missed my point in saying God was yielding in his standards (which I could find numerous texts for, but that's hi-jacking the thread further). The Mosaic law is very much a regulating of a culture and it's existing standards. It did not correct all views and practices, hence, the principles behind them are what is to be considered. The main principle is that women were to be valued and cared for in a time when they were viewed as property by most cultures in the world.
    I agree that women should be valued and cared for, and it's not anti-Biblical to claim so. (Plus, I think they should be allowed to care for themselves.) I also think that some things (like the end of that Psalm) were actively subversive to the view of women as property. Also, Jesus's anti-divorce stance is entirely consistent with such a view, since divorce at the time left the wife destitute and the husband with all his property intact.


    Anyway, I don't like to discuss the bible or religion online for the very reason that so much gets taken out of context and it's exhausting to go back & forth and have to quote stuff.


    No problem. I do value your opinions on things, and I agree all the quoting is exhausting. Certainly taking things from the Bible out of context is an ongoing problem in any discussion involving Christianity. I apologize if I was being unfair.

  6. #16
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    I agree that women should be valued and cared for, and it's not anti-Biblical to claim so. (Plus, I think they should be allowed to care for themselves.) I also think that some things (like the end of that Psalm) were actively subversive to the view of women as property. Also, Jesus's anti-divorce stance is entirely consistent with such a view, since divorce at the time left the wife destitute and the husband with all his property intact.




    No problem. I do value your opinions on things, and I agree all the quoting is exhausting. Certainly taking things from the Bible out of context is an ongoing problem in any discussion involving Christianity. I apologize if I was being unfair.
    It's all good...I ventured to discuss it this much because everyone is being very polite about it (including you ). Of course, this IS the NF forum
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  7. #17
    Senior Member Lacey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLessard View Post
    I remember reading in Keirseys Please Understand Me that idealists will sometimes value friendship above romance and seek it rather than romance. It is definitely true for me, and also for an ENFP friend of mine who could care less about romance as well. We both have tried to understand this.
    I never really thought about it, but I'm this way too. It's not that I don't care about romance, but I just think friendship is better all around. I have a hard time explaining why, though. It's just that I see the majority of romantic relationships being selfish and shallow. Most friendships aren't.

    I always hope that if I do get into a romantic relationship, I can be that guy's friend first...no matter how foolish/naive that sounds. I've just always held the opinion that, if people treated their romantic relationships a little more like friendships in some ways...love wouldn't have such a bad name. (Yeah, this is me being completely idealistic and in my head about it. This concept probably doesn't work in the real world.)
    How insulted I was when my ESTJ mother would misunderstand me and suspect I was a lesbian because I cared very much about a female friend, sometimes. It has nothing to do with Eros for me! Do you know what I mean? What are your experiences with this?
    I have a friend I love very much. She's on of the few soulmates I have here on this earth. I've actually told her something along the lines of: "Too bad I couldn't find the male version of you, too. Then I'd be all set." She thought it was funny, and understood completely.

    I don't think I'd go around telling other people this story, because it would definitely be misinterpreted. :rolli: It sometimes irritates me that a lot of people only use the word/concept "soulmate" for romantic relationships.

    Some connections between friends can be even stronger than romantic ones. Some guy would have to be really special to be a better soulmate than my friend. She's set the bar pretty high. haha

  8. #18
    Aspiring Troens Ridder KLessard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lacey View Post

    I always hope that if I do get into a romantic relationship, I can be that guy's friend first...no matter how foolish/naive that sounds. I've just always held the opinion that, if people treated their romantic relationships a little more like friendships in some ways...love wouldn't have such a bad name. (Yeah, this is me being completely idealistic and in my head about it. This concept probably doesn't work in the real world.)
    Glad to read this!

    I keep having this strange experience with male friends. Whenever I have strong feelings for one, the moment I feel a good friendship is established, I feel satisfied.

    One of the most successful marriages I ever saw was the one between my INTJ best friend and her ESFP husband. They were friends at Bible school for 5 years before they were married, and their relationship is beautiful and very honest.

  9. #19
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    I found this thread while doing some googling on Jonathan and David. I had a friend years ago--we were 14 and 15--and we bonded as soul mates like David and Jonathan. Unfortunately, his parents, and the church we were attending thought we were homosexuals and it ended up being a huge fiasco. I was really hurt and eventually had to leave the church. To this day my friend and I don't talk.

    Anyways, I think anything can be sexualized, but things don't have to be. My friend and I were not gay, we just connected. I'd like to write a book about how we've lost a lot of positive same-sex affection in our culture because of our tendency to sexually pressurize everything.

    I'm not exactly sure how to write the book--whether to focus on my experience, to turn it into a novel, to gather other people's stories, to write it topically... Any suggestions?

  10. #20
    Senior Member tortoise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLessard View Post
    If idealists seek mating that is soul-to-soul, this can happen with anybody. A child, a husband, a friend, a teacher, no?
    Yes, I've had these soul-friendships and there's been absolutely no erotic aspect at all.

    My closest friend is a guy from another country and there's a slight language problem but somehow that doesn't seem to be a real problem. We can just look at each other in a situation and both laugh like crazy because we've both seen it from the same humorous angle, without even saying anything. This happens a lot. People watch us laughing our heads of and see our closeness and have thought we were gay!

    I also have a strong bond with his 10-yr old daughter. It's the humour thing as well, and we're very affectionate with each other. There's absolutely no creepy weird paedo thing going on at all but we just seem to connect at an instinctive level.

    I've also had the same thing with a woman 30 years older than me. Again, very strong bond for a while (although our lives went in different directions) but with zero sexual aspect.

    I live for these deep bonds and they're more important to me than erotic relationships. I would only want a sexual relationship with a woman who I can have the soul-friendship with.

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