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  1. #61
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I still think for us that it is less of a doorslam and more of a click and a forever locked door. There isn't much hurt or emotion fueling it. Just a desire to be done with dealing with someone who is either untrustworthy or stuck in a an unproductive pattern of behaviour. I think it rarely happens in a moment of anger. Just something snaps and there's no desire to keep trying. I don't think INFJs give up people in their life easily who matter to them, and they don't get terribly emotionally invested in the the ones who don't matter to them.

    In the first case, I had written for about five years to this guy and had dated him briefly the first summer when we met. We lived far away from each other and there was no interest in dating again later on. I was more mad at him for his girlfriend's sake and because he wasn't being honest, rather than upset because of how he and I interacted.

    In the other case, I had known the guy for three or four years, written regularly and talked on the phone regarding a major project that I did and needed his expertise for, and became friends, emailing regularly. Again, the issue was that he had not been honest in his intentions and had outright lied. That would have been less of an issue if it had only involved me, but I was embarrassed for convincing my mother to spend the money to come, had booked return tickets expecting that we would need two weeks in the area where he was and had hauled along a lot of unnecessary equipment. He had known from the beginning that he did not have the information needed, I was embarrassed at my poor judgement, and I had practical concerns as well.

  2. #62
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    If someone were to all of sudden express their "true feelings" about me when they were angry, meaning they were holding it in and not being truthful with me, it would feel like a complete slap in the face. I've had this done to me before, and the relationships were never the same again. I try to be honest as much as possible, especially with friends, and I expect the same. I'm leery of people who behave as if they have no issues with you, when in fact they have many which they haven't come forward with.
    Fidelia and others have already responded to this better than I could, but I agree that it isn't generally a case of the INFJ smiling and being sweet to you while thinking how much they hate you, and making a long list of things to hold against you. It's more that when the straw comes that breaks the camel's back, the INFJ becomes aware that they've been letting a bunch of unacceptable crap go by, and suddenly (or what seems like "suddenly" to the other person) they start enumerating all of it. Or it might not even all fall under the heading of "unacceptable crap" - it could be some really bad behaviour, combined with some behaviour which is only mildly irritating or inconsiderate. But if the INFJ is really angry at you, they will build all of the above into a grand picture of you where you are a horrible human being and ALL your behaviour provides evidence of this.

    I guess it can be a bit of an OTT reaction but maybe it's also self-defense against the type of people who, with a friend who generally lets the little or medium-sized stuff go, will take advantage and act more and more inconsiderately. I agree that it would be healthier in some ways to have smaller "confrontations", on separate occasions when the other person behaves unkindly or inconsiderately, that release the pressure bit by bit instead of a big blow-up. But I for one am very wary of seeming like the kind of person who takes offense at everything, so I let things go, and then one day it has the potential to explode.

    I have only blown up at people face to face a handful of times in my life and I think in those cases I was much younger, and it was with family members. In more recent years I have blown up at people by email or text, also only a mere handful of times. I think on those occasions I've gone for the "truthful and biting" approach, usually followed about 24 hours later by a horrible feeling that I've made everything a million times worse (whether or not this is true). Then I will either avoid the person totally, or largely avoid them and be polite and distant when forced to interact with them. If things are bad enough that they've come to this pass, the other person would do well to express some remorse for their bad behaviour, and listen to me talk it out.
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  3. #63
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Yes!!!

    In general, remorse and recognition goes a long way, combined with willingness to talk.

    One thing that helps for all types to keep in mind - INFJs often work on a delayed processing schedule. What seems like incongruous behaviour is most often based on their analysis of the past interaction. Therefore someone watching an INFJ be loving, prickly, warm, cooler, may think it's rather arbitrary, but it isn't. I wish I had understood this with my ESTJ back then. I remember writing him an email when I was feeling upset because I felt I could be less emotional using writing. Over the course of the night I thought about it, decided I could deal with whatever, we had a trip ahead of us, and so I wrote him a cheerier email entitled, "Blue skies ahead" and apologizing for making a big deal out of it. Instead of this smoothing things over, it sent him through the roof. He thought I was being fickle and upsetting him and worrying him, only to act like it was nothing later, no big deal. What he didn't realize is that it was indeed a big deal, but I felt that there was little productive to be gained by trying to talk that out, it was something I could process internally and be done with, and we should get things patched up in time for the long car ride together ahead so that we could have a nice time together.

  4. #64
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    So now are you discouraged from sending an email at all? LOL I mean, see what happens when you show your feelings when you feel them, without sitting with them (at least) overnight?!

    The process is very important for me as an INFJ. I have to go through my process with the issue before I can talk about it. "Why didn't you talk about it before?" drives me a little nuts. Because I wasn't ready, obviously. Now I'm ready. So now let's talk about it, rather than talk about why I didn't talk about it before.

  5. #65
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post

    One thing that helps for all types to keep in mind - INFJs often work on a delayed processing schedule.
    This is also true, and it is one area where I really do feel that I could be quite unfair to another person (from their perspective anyway). I have been known (only a couple of times at most) to apparently accept an apology from another person for their behaviour or the effect it has had on me - BUT, I later realise (because of that delayed processing) that the apology seemed insincere, or the person didn't really recognize what they'd done to me, or I thought they were being condescending, etc etc. And then I keep going through stuff in my head, and continue being just as angry at them - that's usually the point when I'm maintaining total or almost total silence toward them. However badly they may have behaved to begin with, I do realise that it's not too fair to act like everything is ok, and subsequently act like everything is not ok and keep simmering over everything in my head. It would, however, still help at that point if the person approached me, made overtures, and agreed to talk it out! I don't think this scenario is likely to arise if the person agrees to talk things out - it's more if they say "let's forget about it" or "sorry about that" and then just walk off and don't want to talk about it at all.
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  6. #66
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Ah, and this is why it is important not to rush an INFJ into making a decision or accepting an apology. Unless they have had a little while to process, you may be stuck discussing it all over again and then the INFJ also is dealing with you being angry that they are being so grudgy and nitpicking (which will take even longer)!

  7. #67
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I spent a bunch of time replying, then forgot to actually post this! Thanks so much, Ergophobe. I think your perspective is very useful.

    Quote Originally Posted by ergophobe View Post
    Is this the SO that you've mentioned before or someone new? We really need to catch up properly. I've missed keeping up with goings on in your life.

    No kidding! But, no - no big news in my life these days re dating. I meant to say ex-bf in there! Yeah he is the one that I mentioned before. We were together five years. After about two it became apparent that outside of the present circumstances, we could not make a go of things when we both left. At that time we were planning to leave at the end of year three. We both still really loved each other and so continued on. That was a rough year, and then we both ended up having career opportunities that made us decide to stay on for another two more. Oddly enough (to others) we decided not to break up, although in retrospect we very much should have. Things started going downhill as his emotions towards me fluctuated (he went between on purpose distancing me emotionally so he could cope and acting rude and ambivalent, then being very caring and warm. They talk about the effect of the push/pull in PUA literature. This wasn't a thought out push/pull but it had the same effect of making me want to be close to him, rather than taking a step back myself. I was the one that felt rejected, rather than understanding that he was coping with something difficult in a different way than I naturally would).

    I agree with you that we go through some unnecessary pain by trying too hard to maintain a calm surface.

    Long back you had mentioned in a conversation that INFJs may not react well in the immediate moment of conflict but they always reflect and change their behavior to honor what they feel was their part. I found this very insightful and it does apply to the people I know. Does he do this too, altering his behavior eventually? If not, why do you feel like you have to apologize for a situation where you felt so strongly that you were being treated unfairly?

    Generally for him, as long as there were no symptoms of the problem manifesting themselves to him (tears, anger, silence) it didn't exist. If they did manifest themselves, he tried to make it quit as quickly as possible. There was one occasion where I showed him a nice card a kid had made for me and he said something rather withering. Later he did come back and apologize and say that he responded that way because he was jealous. He was a strong, self-assured enough acting person on the outside that that wouldn't have occurred to me first. As time went on I realized that a lot of the negative behaviour was fueled by insecurity, and yet I was the one that felt dumb because of it. In some cases he altered his behaviour, but in many he saw that as an admission of defeat. Why did I feel like I needed to apologize? I was deeply embarrassed for seeming to make a big deal out of a little thing, and especially for crying about it. INFJs really don't generally like crying in front of other people, and it is most destructive when they are made to feel oversensitive and wimpy on the rare occasions that it happens without (especially since they didn't intend to). I got tired of things always going his way, and yet no matter how I brought them up problems never got resolved. He on the other hand claimed there was nothing at all about me that bothered him (so it was always me bringing up negatives) except when he needed something to throw back when he was feeling defensive.

    Some potential scenarios of bringing things up earlier:
    1. Temporary conflict and disharmony but the person reflects and alters behavior.
    2. Temporary conflict and disharmony but the person does not reflect and alter behavior, getting defensive and hurting more in retaliation.
    3. If both are in a good place, a conversation about both sides of the picture and coming up with solutions together.

    Thanks, those are excellent!

    At my end, I think, at least you'll know what would happen if you were to share and know you gave the person a chance to reflect and that they did or did not take that chance. It's not easy though, I can relate. I'm currently struggling with how to talk to an INFJ I've known for almost 18 years - one of my best friends in the whole world. I'm taking some time out to reflect and detach so I can have the conversation in a way that our friendship and this wonderful, caring person deserves. I won't have it until I feel I can have the conversation maturely but I also won't engage until I do. I can see how Fi can be scary in this way to some because it's not always concerned with external harmony but the inside and outside are always well matched.

    Was there a particular incident that happened?

    I really hope you are matched with someone who appreciates all that you bring to the relationship.

    Thanks so much for the sentiments! I am not sorry for having had that experience becuase I think another time I would have a better idea of what to do.

  8. #68
    Senior Member wedekit's Avatar
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    In regards to the original question asked, I would say that it would depend on the cause of my anger. However, for simplicity's sake, here are the general things I do/want to do:

    1. Break all contact. Let's face it, this is the perfect way to get your revenge. Let them stew in their own thoughts for a couple of days/months.

    2. Make a statement that pretty much ruins most chances for our relationship (whatever kind it may be) to be mended. This is usually one sentence and contains an in-depth judgment of them as a person.

    3. I usually just leave immediately in order to keep myself from doing any other ideas that pop into my head that are most likely not good ones.
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  9. #69
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    "Why the hell didn't you vote Democrat?"
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  10. #70
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    i don't know, i think thoughts that seem painfully disillusioning at all times. about myself, about the world, and about others. you can't just blurt it out immediately, especially if you don't have a constructive way to say it.

    and yes, more importantly in the context of this discussion, my own stress level, my own frustration with getting what i want, and my own conflict with another person have a very strong force in filtering what i see. so it can drastically influence the way i frame events, or my ability to absorb seeming contradictions and resolve them, understand them, recognize a larger picture that is not just my own. but it's not easy, and sometimes it can all turn into a trainwreck.

    part of our frustration is that Fe when pushed and pushed, or when frustrated or feeling violated or overdrawn or getting trampled upon, doesn't naturally feel strong enough to take control of the situation and assert. unlike Fe doms, who have a stronger assertion level and seem more equipped to just respond to the situation and commit to it 100%, who are better at responding IN THE MOMENT, we are left wondering what the right thing to do is. we are frustrated by our own inability to know what is right, but we are more focused on an Ni process that is flip-flopping all over the place, can't seem to find constancy, and is greatly unbalanced and pushed off center by conflict, stress, frustration, and our own anxieties about our own inability to assert our desires and the moral rightness for doing so. so our sense of being in the right CAN become very inflated, bc we need this certainty to fucking act, make a decision, get it out of us, express our feelings, rather than going back and forth and struggling entirely on the inside. we need Fe expression to recognize where our feelings are actually at, how the context of the situation is affecting our judgment (clouding), etc, bc we can't check in with ourselves as well as Fi types. tho they need expression too, altho that is more of a different kind of feedback process and for different reasons.

    the e4, e5, and e9 infjs all respond in these situations differently. the e9s seem much more give give give and then cut cord, the e4s i think are more aware of what they need. and the e5s, i think, are much more obvious and impatient when they are frustrated, which kind of elements the guessing game. the instinctual subtypes strongly dictate different energies as well. i think Ti is so crucial in helping infjs right the ship and provide a sense of inner constancy and stable foundation. it brings necessary context, a specific logical truth, or a basic story of events, that helps guide the infj and better recognize the motives of all parties in the situation, the actors, the events, the setting, etc. the scene comes into better focus.

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