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  1. #51
    Senior Member alexx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    It took me a long time to figure out that INFJs so carefully weigh their options before acting.
    Not really.


    If it is what shoes to wear it could take hours.

    If it is what state to move to it's almost instantaneous (and no amount of reasoning will ever work to make them slow down or wait.)

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  2. #52
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexx View Post

    If it is what state to move to it's almost instantaneous (and no amount of reasoning will ever work to make them slow down or wait.)
    Oh, I'm not like that at all. I'm not too spontaneous about most things, but with things like where to move, it takes me months (if not years) of deliberation.

    This thread has been fascinating - I want to weigh in with my own response when I have a bit more time
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  3. #53
    Senior Member alexx's Avatar
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    I guess it is just some INFJ's then. It still blows me away when it happens.

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  4. #54
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Here's me telling Victor off, which should give you an idea. And just for kicks, here's part 2.
    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Yep, this would be the main other one for me. It's usually though in an effort to preserve the relationship. Very seldom will an INFJ bother to tell you something negative about yourself unless you are such a part of their inner circle and it is worth risking it for the greater good. They hold the people close to them to much higher standards than their acquaintances or casual friends, which may anger or confuse the people they love. They hate the feeling of "telling the truth because you need to hear it", but somewhat like throwing up when you have a sick stomach, it is so much better afterwards! In most cases, INFJs believe they have given a lot of more subtle clues so that you could have picked up the message in a less uncomfortable way and they were blatantly ignored. They also have likely put up with a lot, believing that it would even out eventually, except that the other person doesn't understand the sacrifices they were making or doesn't even the score to make things fair.

    Nice synopsis!
    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Yeah it took me awhile to realize that. One thing though - INFJs are very seldom sitting there brooding over things for that whole year. They make valiant attempts to dismiss what happened as their own problem, not the other person's. They really think they have dealt with it. And then suddenly when they are least expecting it, something else happens and everything comes out all at once. It's quite embarrassing and unpleasant to them and they feel awful afterwards, but I can see how it's difficult to deal with. Even at the best of times, you'll rarely get an INFJ telling you they are mad until they've had time to analyze why on their own. By then, it seems like nitpicking to bring it up unless its really big. And then if it is really big it's awhile more before they've figured out how to because as you say, they assume it will make everyone feel as rotten as they would feel if told the same thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    Full Disclosure: I am an ENxP thats a teeny bit more F than T. This post is based on my experience with my INFJ friends and study of the MBTI. However, Ive never run this theory by an INFJ, so Id appreciate input from INFJs reading this post.

    My answer to the question at hand is it depends.

    I've come to understand INFJ anger as a two-part process. First, the INFJ gets angry on the inside. Second, they go through a decision making process about how to best handle that anger. What an angry INFJ says to you (or does not say) is almost never done without careful consideration. Thus, the outward expression of their anger will be very deliberate and reflect the INFJ's goals.

    Part One: The INFJ Gets Angry on the Inside
    Like all Js, INFJs relish organization and decisiveness. More than any other type I've encountered, INFJs focus their organizational abilities in the arena of their internal constructs. Their homes may or may not be cluttered, but their conclusions (reached through their feelings about the matter at hand) are drawn quickly and are pretty darn fixed.

    I've noticed that what REALLLLLY ticks off an INFJ is when they observe a violation of their intense vision of how things "should be" or "ought to be." (Voil! Ni with Fe.) This means that anger with an INFJ is almost always tied to righting a perceived wrong. It also means that INFJs always have a motive when communicating anger. Once you know their motive, you can pretty accurately predict their response.

    Step Two: The INFJ Gets Angry on the Outside
    An INFJ who experiences anger on the inside next does what INFJs do: They carefully weigh the consequences of expressing their feelings BEFORE they act. (Voil! Fe) The array of INFJ angry responses might include the following:

    1. Trying to Let It Go INFJs value highly social norms and try to create a smooth and cooperative vibe with those whom they interact. Given this, it may seem reasonable to the INFJ, to try to let it go.
    2. Bottling Up the Anger (a.k.a. Filing It Away for Future Use) My experience has been that #1 is a pipe dream for many INFJs. An unhealthy or young INFJ may desire to let it go on one level only in the sense that they cant bear the idea of the confrontation. They have no desire to truly forgive the offender or re-examine their reasoning about whether or not there was truly an offense. This unresolved paradox leads to all sorts of INFJ passive-aggressive antics. Eventually, the unexpressed anger results in the INFJ either shutting the offender out, or resorting to responses #3 and/or #4.
    3. The Silent Treatment Quietly nursing curmudgeonly feelings for the offender and communicating those feelings by deliberately not communicating is a really common INFJ response to anger (at least in my experience).
      <As a side note, this is one of the reasons ENTPs are so good with INFJs. My strong Ti (Im only barely F) completely undercuts INFJ over-emotionalism. For example, one of my INFJ friends was giving me the silent treatment at a party. My response was to walk over, give him a big grin, and then say, You completely crack me up. Are you done snubbing me? Cause I was thinking you might feel better if you told me to f-off. Then we can move past it and be friends again. He was floored, but after reflecting for 30 seconds, he returned the grin before saying, Yeah, youre right. I need to work on letting things go. (Ha! That was one of the longest 30 seconds of my life, btw.)>
    4. The Sarcastic Response Ohhh a cocky/arrogant INFJ is not a pretty sight to see. My experience has been that sometimes INFJs are overly confident as a way to compensate for feeling overly insecure. If an INFJ is coming from this place of weakness/overconfidence, then sarcasm is often employed. Sarcasm is about overt irony intentionally used by the speaker as in the form of implicit criticism. It can be a form of verbal aggression. In an unhealthy INFJ, bitingly sarcastic remarks become a mainstay of verbal communication.
    5. The Im going to tell you the truth because you need to hear it Response As an ENFP, I know this one well and have been known to employ it myself. This is the response that can be so hurtful. And the truer it is, the more hurtful hearing it will be. The INFJs motive is usually to provide constructive criticism. But in less self-actualized INFJs it can be just plain out vindictive and petty.
    I've been wondering about this whole INFJ anger/door slam thing.

    I can see why Victor would set Peguy off like that, and wonder what the limit is on annoyance that would trigger this.

    I've dealt with a supposed INFJ, and the behavior seemed to fit these descriptions, but then there were a lot of things that just weren't right.


    Start off offering just criticisms of posts; constructive ones, granted, but nevertheless, that's all they ever say to you (establish no sort of relationship, so it's like this person is popping out of nowhere in an unfriendly manner), and you even try to heed their advice, but the real issue is they don't like your ideas. They make some remark about "ignoring" you, but continue commenting.

    Eventually, they begin getting nasty, using credentials and status (theirs and your lack thereof). The biggest complaint being you are not "serious" about the subject like they are. Mind you; it's an informal discussion group.

    Then then at one point initiate what seems like a friendly discussion, and when you take them up on it, but unwittingly say something they for some reason don't like, then they suddenly lash out with #5. Their reasoning is the "repeated offenses" from before, and "missed cues", and they acknowledge "stepping back and examining their own stuff", but there is never any sign of remorse, or that they might be wrong. It's all YOU, YOU, YOU, boldly and unequivocally!
    They also claim to be "feeling for the group", and appeal to others and DARE you to find anyone in your support, though the others do not say much.

    They see they've upset you, and now start trying to "help" (FIX) you, and you try to move forward. But then after some time has passed, they recount to someone else about the affair, (as an "example" of the INFJ's anger, yet!), in a manner that sounds like bragging about beating you.

    When they did #5 on you, they harshly criticized your social skills (which is what supposedly set them off in the first place), but then you see them (present and past) having the same and even worse social skills. They neglect the definitive Fe niceties such as saying "hi" to people, even on their very first post, and intimidate them, with not only with the way they treated you, but also pouncing on others even from a more "helpful" premise. Others take serious offense to their apparently hawking their business, or trying to come off as an expert. (which is exactly what the person accused you of!)
    So in other words, they're telling you "the truth" about yourself, but then it was even more true for them. So why should you be humiliated like that by someone who's even more guilty of the supposed "offenses"?

    Time passes, and they suddenly take offense again to something you say, and now begin with the #4 treatment, and it escalates again, but this time you react more strongly.
    They now go into defensive mode and claim to be "attacked", "bullied" and "intimidated", and that you broke a "truce" (the earlier claim to want to move on), which now becomes their excuse to do the "door slam".
    So now, they give you #3, but continue to do #4--but to others they take shots at you when talking with others, while ignoring you. Even long after the discussions have moved on, they continue this.

    Now note; it's the reverse of above: #5 comes first, then 4, then 3!

    You react, and they continue to complain of being attacked, and then storm off for good, "apologizing" to everyone only for your behavior; not theirs, directly, and then writing a nasty long e-mail calling you names, accusing you of destroying their "recreation" (what a reversal from not being "serious" enough!), saying they'll delete any responses unread and even threatening "legal action" when you try to resolve the thing after a long cooling off period.


    Is this within the range of INFJ behavior? I have seen where INFJ's with Ni as overdominating are described as basically overriding their Fe and "steamrolling" others with their "visions", but I'm thinking this person is ENTJ, now, especially because of the whole status/business mindset, the use of Fe only to castigate the other person, while not manifesting its good aspects, and the drive to WIN and get the last word by any means (angry NT behavior; esp. ENT). Even if an "unhealthy INFJ", I would think the Fe in non-stressed mode would have been more typical.
    Also, it became clear that it was a whole turf war. They felt their turf was being invaded and someone was trying to upseat their [unofficial] position (when that was not the case at all), and again, it was all about business.

    From what I have seen in discussions like this, I imagine you would really have to be the one approaching the INFJ and annoying them for them to react like that; especially being both "introverted" and "cooperative". They don't go after people, and make a group [that they're only marginally involved in, yet] their "turf" do they? And would the kind of "offenses" that set them off be issues of "seriousness"; and have an otherwise "business" orientation?
    And the "door slam" wouldn't involve them poking at the "offender" (using others), right?

    I ask, because for one thing, it ties into discussions like the whole Hitler analysis, where most think he's NFJ, but to me, it seems like very shadowy Fe, and thus TJ. Of course, some could argue the Te/Fi were what were shadowy (Fi is described as the one to "cut off" relationships for good when values are violated too much, and in the "witch" position, it would figure), but those did not look nearly as destructive as the Fe.

    So is the "door slam" specifically INFJ, or NFJ in general? Or could it be more of just an NJ thing? I imagine the F is what leads to a tendency to "retreat", while T might be more likely to stick around and fight. But then, if they feel it's "a waste of their time", then they would try to throw the last punch and get away. Still, I would imagine the common tendency is to be through with you.

    My wife is SFJ, and they don't do the door slam. You'd have to do something REALLY horrible to push them that far, from what I see. Because they're informing rather than directive, they seem to be more willing to forgive and try to work it out, civilly. (And it's ironic that many INTP's complain about SFJ's, but tend to like NFJ's. I guess they need a fellow N more than they need someone more accepting and forgiving).
    I am all too familiar with ISTJ's, and they have tertiary Fi, and will cut off relationships that have been violated too much as well.
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  5. #55
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    I'm so sorry Fid. The scenario sounds vary painful

    Is this the SO that you've mentioned before or someone new? We really need to catch up properly. I've missed keeping up with goings on in your life.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I think the problem comes in that they really believe they've dealt with it and that things are okay. Until something else happens. I agree that's not fair, but I believe they don't want to bring it up when they think it's just a little minor one time thing.
    I don't think I clarified this above and really meant to - It's not just about fairness for the other person - it's about protecting you guys too, often from ourselves . I know you don't need or desire it and are pretty kick ass when you want to be (ahem, I know from experience ) but the ENFP in me who desires fairness for ALL thinks it's unfair to YOU. It is painful to see that you would and other INFJs would continuously let things that are SO unfair to you slide and the cause of the hurt knows nothing about it or how hard you're working to keep things calm on the surface. Not fair. Both sides should work on the relationship, whatever it may be - sibling, romance to keep it all rainbows and unicorns.

    For example, my ESTJ boyfriend...
    Sorry. It sounds like you are not and don't feel appreciated for everything you do.

    Besides that, every time I have brought up something that bothers me, he reacts by bringing up extraneous things that don't bother him but that do hurt me and he knows that, thereby silencing me. I react with emotion, he's either patronizing or just walks away, and end up either apologizing or having so much other new emotional stuff to process that I give up saying anything and just have a more and more separate life.
    Long back you had mentioned in a conversation that INFJs may not react well in the immediate moment of conflict but they always reflect and change their behavior to honor what they feel was their part. I found this very insightful and it does apply to the people I know. Does he do this too, altering his behavior eventually? If not, why do you feel like you have to apologize for a situation where you felt so strongly that you were being treated unfairly?

    I realize that's an example of when the relationship is on shakey ground anyway, but I guess that's some of the reasoning that's there. It's not a matter of saving up stuff to bombard a person with, but rather not knowing at what point it warrants mentioning. Since then, I've realized that I should probably err on the side of mentioning little things as soon as they become an annoyance and before they become a real problem.
    Some potential scenarios of bringing things up earlier:
    1. Temporary conflict and disharmony but the person reflects and alters behavior.
    2. Temporary conflict and disharmony but the person does not reflect and alter behavior, getting defensive and hurting more in retaliation.
    3. If both are in a good place, a conversation about both sides of the picture and coming up with solutions together.

    At my end, I think, at least you'll know what would happen if you were to share and know you gave the person a chance to reflect and that they did or did not take that chance. It's not easy though, I can relate. I'm currently struggling with how to talk to an INFJ I've known for almost 18 years - one of my best friends in the whole world. I'm taking some time out to reflect and detach so I can have the conversation in a way that our friendship and this wonderful, caring person deserves. I won't have it until I feel I can have the conversation maturely but I also won't engage until I do. I can see how Fi can be scary in this way to some because it's not always concerned with external harmony but the inside and outside are always well matched.

    I really hope you are matched with someone who appreciates all that you bring to the relationship.

  6. #56
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Eric B, that was a really intense read. I don't know that I have constructive input because I don't know what type that represents. I'm not even sure how much type really describes a person since there are many other factors influencing them. All I can say is that what you describe would be exhausting to experience whether giving or receiving.

    I think some INFJs doorslam, but not all. When I leave a situation it isn't a doorslam, but complete exhaustion from the situation, or an inability to know how to resolve the conflict, or not knowing how to protect myself (if it is serious situation), or just generalized confusion at all the behaviors and ideas especially if the person is inconsistent. My personal reaction doesn't mean much here, but my point is that all exits/doorslams are not created equal. There can be as many motivations as there are people.
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  7. #57
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Yeah, that behaviour doesn't sound very typically INFJ but probably a non-INFJ type could even better say.

    I will say that most INFJs have to be really, really, really at the end of their string to doorslam anyone. They usually will have made repeated attempts to amend the problem (or else what the person did was just so despicable that they can't fathom the possibility of ever trusting them again in any manner). I have in my life only doorslammed two people. In one case, the person had been a good friend and had lied for two years about whether they had a girlfriend while still being inappropriately friendly/romantic with me via email. I just figured if his character was like that, I didn't want to be friends with him any longer. In the other case, it was a man 25 years older than me who convinced me to fly across the country with my mother because he had excellent research materials and subjects for a project I was doing that he had very specific and needed knowledge on. It turned out that he just liked me and was hoping to spend more time with me and had greatly exaggerated and lied about what was available there. I didn't speak to him after I left early. Toonia's description of the doorslam seems pretty accurate to me.

  8. #58
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    It's hard for anyone of any type to rise above the fray during moments of anger. However, I think INFJs have a harder time than most. Such is the burden of being able to see all the permutations of any given situation while at the same time feeling compelled to have their psyche (Ni) neatly organized. One INFJ friend of mine calls this the shuttlecock experience. She always feels like she's shuttling between two irreconcilable positions.

    So I think that INFJs have a host of healthy and unhealthy tactics for dealing with this paradox. Angry, un-self-actualized INFJs tend to cut off information they should consider. I think the INFJ Personal Growth page on personalitypage.com says it so well:

    "If the psyche is presented with information that looks anything like something that Introverted iNtuition has processed in the past, it uses Extraverted Feeling to quickly reject that information. The psyche uses Extraverted Feeling to reject the ideas, rather than taking the information into its intuitive framework, and therefore potentially causing that framework to be reshaped and redefined.

    'Using Extraverted Feeling in this manner may effectively serve the immediate needs of Introverted iNtuition, but it is not ideal. It causes the INFJ to not consider information that may be useful or criticial in developing a real understanding of an issue. It may cause the INFJ to come off as too strongly opinionated or snobbish to others." (from INFJ Personal Growth)

    In other words, INFJs (healthy or not) can get very black and white in their thinking if they are angry. I suppose we all do this, but there is a particularly visceral and obstinate quality to the angry INFJ's thinking. I find that I have to give my INFJ friends LOTS of space to let them process the situation. ( e.g., One INFJ friend who cares about me very much took eight months before she re-contacted me to apologize for getting upset with me for no fault of my own.)

    This is very, very hard for me to take. Maybe it's my ENFP personality. Maybe it's my robust personal luggage collection. But it seems to me that I shouldn't have to give my INFJ friends four weeks of space every time they get upset. Not all INFJs do this, but a significant portion of them do... at least that has been my experience. <Sigh.>

  9. #59
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    Eric B, that was a really intense read. I don't know that I have constructive input because I don't know what type that represents. I'm not even sure how much type really describes a person since there are many other factors influencing them. All I can say is that what you describe would be exhausting to experience whether giving or receiving.

    I think some INFJs doorslam, but not all. When I leave a situation it isn't a doorslam, but complete exhaustion from the situation, or an inability to know how to resolve the conflict, or not knowing how to protect myself (if it is serious situation), or just generalized confusion at all the behaviors and ideas especially if the person is inconsistent. My personal reaction doesn't mean much here, but my point is that all exits/doorslams are not created equal. There can be as many motivations as there are people.
    Well, was "The door slam" coined by INFJ's themselves, or was it others observing them?
    It sounds to me like an external perspective. Hence, they shut you out, but inside, they are hurt about it. But on the outside, it looks like they slammed a door on you.

    (Also, are you settled on j/p now? If you're really ISFP, then you would have the Fi, which would cut people off in a less huffy manner).
    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Yeah, that behaviour doesn't sound very typically INFJ but probably a non-INFJ type could even better say.

    I will say that most INFJs have to be really, really, really at the end of their string to doorslam anyone. They usually will have made repeated attempts to amend the problem (or else what the person did was just so despicable that they can't fathom the possibility of ever trusting them again in any manner). I have in my life only doorslammed two people. In one case, the person had been a good friend and had lied for two years about whether they had a girlfriend while still being inappropriately friendly/romantic with me via email. I just figured if his character was like that, I didn't want to be friends with him any longer. In the other case, it was a man 25 years older than me who convinced me to fly across the country with my mother because he had excellent research materials and subjects for a project I was doing that he had very specific and needed knowledge on. It turned out that he just liked me and was hoping to spend more time with me and had greatly exaggerated and lied about what was available there. I didn't speak to him after I left early.
    All of this sounds pretty comparable to the STJ/FP Fi "cut off" I mentioned.
    I wondered about the statement "their intense vision of how things 'should be' or 'ought to be'." I guess in this latter case, it would be about the honesty of these guys' romantic desires, right? And it basically was them "approaching" you with the offense.
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    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    I think the topic of INFJ doorslamming is very interesting. I just started a new thread devoted to this topic. I love this forum. So many friendly and insightful people.


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